An alternative First Age timeline inspired by Huinesoron

[Arvegil145]

To get one thing out of the way immediately - my proposal for an alternative timeline IS NOT based on the framework that Huinesoron used: in fact, as I'll demonstrate shortly it is largely based on an earlier timeline/conception that Tolkien used in the NoME.

This whole endeavour was based on two of my biggest annoyances with Tolkien (who can never leave good enough alone): namely the fact that the First Age, whatever iteration, is way way too long (for example, Huinesoron has a 6,000+ year First Age, Tolkien mused about having the First Age last for 100,000 years or so, and even the AAm + Grey Annals has it at almost 5,000 years long - none of this simply fits with the slow and gradual shortening of Ages throughout history; but that is just my opinion).

However, with all that said, I find that framework a lot more in line with the rest of the legendarium. And no, it's not "canon" of course, but I'd very much like if others here (especially Huinesoron) looked at it as a fun exercise.

Think of it as my attempt to throw away any concerns about the matter of "Tolkien wrote it last, therefore it's imperative to use it"... (also, whether or not Tolkien 'abandoned' an idea is irrelevant for the purposes of this project - after all, not every aspect that he got rid of was inherently bad IMO) - anyway, enough ranting.


Anyway, to start with:

1) The whole thing that inspired this post is this little obscure passage in the NoME, chapter XIII ('Key Dates'), Text 2B, pp. 100-1:

+ that little timeline on p. 99 of 'Key Dates' in NoME

Old Scheme. “Days of Bliss” last [VY] 1–1050 before “Awaking” = 10,500 sun-years. Not long enough. Let “DB” be longer, and Elvish Events packed at end. The intrusion from outside into the “artificial” world of the Valar soon destroys it!

New. The Trees flower for 864 VY before Awaking = 124,416 sun-years. Quendi then awake in Spring of [VY] 865 (124,417 [YS]). “DB” still goes on, but Quendi start reckoning of First Age with Awaking.

First Age must last somewhat longer than SA (= 3,441). Still be more regularly “duodecimal” (as mythological) up to Death of Trees and after! Say, 4,056 years.

Death of Trees is 24 VY (= 3,456 [YS]) after Awaking = VY 888. First Age should then occupy 4,032 years = 28 VY. That is 3,456 (Death of Trees) + 576 sun-years (= 4 VY). But actually war lasts until 600? So FA = 4,056 [YS] = 28[VY +]/24[YS].

Quendi therefore enter Valinor sometime after VY 864. After VY 864 all dates should be given in sun-years (as well as VY). Found 864 sun-years after awaking = 6 VY. VY 870. (About 12 VY elapse before all settled in Valinor. VY 876.)

So to summarize what Tolkien is saying here:

1) The Two Trees flower for 864 VY (i.e. 124,416 sun-years before the Awaking of the Elves)

2) The Elves awake in spring of VY 865/1

3) The reckoning of the First Age starts with the Awaking of the Elves

4) Tolkien decided that the length of the First Age should be 4,056 solar years, somewhat longer than the Second Age (which lasted for 3,441 years)

5) Death of the Trees occured in the solar year 3,456 (VY 888 originally; but since Tolkien moved the Awaking of the Elves to VY 865/1, that figure should be VY 889/1)

6) The First Age spans the said 3,456 years as said above until Death of the Trees + the last 6 centuries where most of the action in the Silmarillion takes place (i.e. Beleriand), i.e. 3,456 + 600 = 4,056 years total

7) And lastly, it took 864 solar years for Orome to find the Quendi (VY 870; though that was changed to VY 871/1) - and what's more, it took the Eldar additional 6 VY (864 solar years) to eventually reach (or establish) themselves in Aman!


Summary: it took the Elves 1,728 solar years to reach Aman, and they spent the exact same amount of time living there before the Noldor returned to Middle-earth!




As I said in the beginning, my second gripe I wanted to address is the utterly bizzare decision on Tolkien's part to have 20+ generations of Elves between Imin/Tata/Enel and their descendants.

I won't even comment too much on it, excep to recommend Scheme 2 (chapter XVII, pp. 126-130 of the NoME).




All in all, as I said in the beginning, I think it would be a fun exercise to develop an ultimate timeline for this slightly earlier idea of Tolkien's writings (in a similar fashion that Huinesoron did) - and I would be incredibly curious if Huinesoron managed to do with it what he did with his original constructed timeline: by that I mean fitting all other Tolkien's timelines within this framework (i.e. AAm, Grey Annals, the latest XIII timeline and the Great Journey timeline).



Sorry for the long post.

[Arvegil145]

So, the timeline I just cobbled together seems to go like this:


VY 865/1 (FA 1) - the Awaking of the Elves
VY 871/1 (FA 865) - Orome finds the Elves
VY 872/62 (FA 1070) - the Great March begins
...
?VY 875/45 (FA 1485) - the Vanyar and the Noldor reach Valinor
?VY 876/45 (FA 1629) - the Teleri reach the Bay of Eldamar
VY 877/1 (FA 1729) - the last of the Elves settle in Valinor (I take this to mean the Teleri sailing from Eressea to Valinor - i.e. VY 1135/129)
?VY 877/117 (FA 1845) - birth of Feanor (i.e. YT 1169 as per AAm, and 360 years after Finwe's arrival in Valinor)
...
VY 889/1 (FA 3457) - the Death of the Trees (i.e. YT 1495 as per AAm); Bel. 1
VY 893/1 (FA 4033) - Bel. 577
VY 893/24 (FA 4056) - Bel. 600; end of the First Age

[Mithadan]

I struggle with Tolkien's numerous draft timelines because (a) they are not consistent and (b) they are dependent upon factors outside of the chronologies. For example, one cannot adopt a tale of years without also choosing among Tolkien's (similarly inconsistent) views on the maturing and aging of the Elves, the awakening of Men and Dwarves, and even the origin of the Orcs, etc.

For example, any timeline must take into account the tales of the Elves who were born during the wars in Beleriand and were mature and in some cases married and bearing children before the end of the First Age. JRRT's mussing on Elvish development are entirely inconsistent with the tome the Noldor were in exile during the First Age. Did Men awaken at the first rising of the sun (or was there a first rising of the sun) and then rush over to the west within a matter of a few hundred years? If Orcs are corrupted Men instead of corrupted Elves, how was there time to breed the apparently vast armies of Morgoth? To me, it is not simply a matter of choosing and smoothing out a chronology. One must choose an entire cosmology out of disparate elements. There may be simply fixes that Tolkien simply avoided. For example, make the timespan of the Beleriandic wars longer. Then Valinor Years and sun years can be whatever you want. Men can arise whenever you want. Orcs can be of Mannish or Elvish ancestry. Just create enough time for all of your events. But Tolkien didn't do this.

All this said, please have at it!

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I struggle with Tolkien's numerous draft timelines because (a) they are not consistent and (b) they are dependent upon factors outside of the chronologies. For example, one cannot adopt a tale of years without also choosing among Tolkien's (similarly inconsistent) views on the maturing and aging of the Elves, the awakening of Men and Dwarves, and even the origin of the Orcs, etc.

For example, any timeline must take into account the tales of the Elves who were born during the wars in Beleriand and were mature and in some cases married and bearing children before the end of the First Age. JRRT's mussing on Elvish development are entirely inconsistent with the tome the Noldor were in exile during the First Age. Did Men awaken at the first rising of the sun (or was there a first rising of the sun) and then rush over to the west within a matter of a few hundred years? If Orcs are corrupted Men instead of corrupted Elves, how was there time to breed the apparently vast armies of Morgoth? To me, it is not simply a matter of choosing and smoothing out a chronology. One must choose an entire cosmology out of disparate elements. There may be simply fixes that Tolkien simply avoided. For example, make the timespan of the Beleriandic wars longer. Then Valinor Years and sun years can be whatever you want. Men can arise whenever you want. Orcs can be of Mannish or Elvish ancestry. Just create enough time for all of your events. But Tolkien didn't do this.

All this said, please have at it!

I'm well aware of all the stuff you're warning me about - since Huinesoron and I discussed these things in painful detail.

The main reason why I prefer this 4,056 years First Age figure is because it's the most logical of them all.

[Huinesoron]

Doing a quick comparison:

AAm:
Awakening-Finding: 35VY = 335SY
Finding-March: 20VY = 192SY
March-Arrival in Aman: 28VY = 268SY
Arrival in Aman-Death of Trees: 362VY = 3469 SY

Arvegil:
Awakening-Finding: 865SY
Finding-March: 205SY
March-Arrival in Aman: 415SY
Arrival in Aman-Death of Trees: 1972SY

Huinesoron:
Awakening-Finding: 2016SY
Finding-March: 216SY
March-Arrival in Aman: 576SY
Arrival in Aman-Death of Trees: 2664SY

It's interesting that the Finding to the March stays roughly stable across all versions...

I think your version is going to run into problems if you start adding detail. The VII March timeline is 420 SY from leaving Cuivienen to reaching Beleriand; if you keep the "Noldor depart 1VY later", then you need to cut about 1VY out of the March somewhere. Given that the Rhun sojourn is used in other text (I think you posted them when talking about Cirdan), the best place would be in the 1.5VY they spent around the Isen.

Then you've got the whole Aman period, which needs to be practically cut in half. I just about got away with cutting the extra time out of the middle (ie between Finrod's birth and Melkor's unchaining, 958 SY in AAm vs 140 SY in my timeline). You couldn't do that: AAm Finrod is born 1600 SY after the arrival in Aman, which your version would place about 60 SY after the Silmarils were made!

So you'd have to decide what Tolkien would have shortened. Squeezing the genealogical parts of AAm down to about half their length would work; you end up with Finrod born in FA 2424, and Melkor unchained in FA 2546. That's probably the least disruptive to the story, because it maintains (as I did) the 910 SY from the unchaining of Melkor to the death of the Trees untouched.

hS

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Doing a quick comparison:

AAm:
Awakening-Finding: 35VY = 335SY
Finding-March: 20VY = 192SY
March-Arrival in Aman: 28VY = 268SY
Arrival in Aman-Death of Trees: 362VY = 3469 SY

Arvegil:
Awakening-Finding: 865SY
Finding-March: 205SY
March-Arrival in Aman: 415SY
Arrival in Aman-Death of Trees: 1972SY

Huinesoron:
Awakening-Finding: 2016SY
Finding-March: 216SY
March-Arrival in Aman: 576SY
Arrival in Aman-Death of Trees: 2664SY

It's interesting that the Finding to the March stays roughly stable across all versions...

I think your version is going to run into problems if you start adding detail. The VII March timeline is 420 SY from leaving Cuivienen to reaching Beleriand; if you keep the "Noldor depart 1VY later", then you need to cut about 1VY out of the March somewhere. Given that the Rhun sojourn is used in other text (I think you posted them when talking about Cirdan), the best place would be in the 1.5VY they spent around the Isen.

Then you've got the whole Aman period, which needs to be practically cut in half. I just about got away with cutting the extra time out of the middle (ie between Finrod's birth and Melkor's unchaining, 958 SY in AAm vs 140 SY in my timeline). You couldn't do that: AAm Finrod is born 1600 SY after the arrival in Aman, which your version would place about 60 SY after the Silmarils were made!

So you'd have to decide what Tolkien would have shortened. Squeezing the genealogical parts of AAm down to about half their length would work; you end up with Finrod born in FA 2424, and Melkor unchained in FA 2546. That's probably the least disruptive to the story, because it maintains (as I did) the 910 SY from the unchaining of Melkor to the death of the Trees untouched.

hS

What are your impressions on this (very) unfinished attempt by myself: https://ethercalc.net/gca59xpk4mxi.html

I adopted the AAm differences in the dates of birth of Aman characters, however I multiplied the differences (for example, Fingolfin was born in YT 1190, Finarfin in 1230 = 40 old VY difference = 40 x 9.582 = 383.28 years).

What I did then was to divide, say, 383.28 years by 1.515671, which would give the difference between their birth dates as 252.87 years (rounding it down to 252 years).

How on earth did I come up with that 1.515671 conversion rate...ehhh...I'd like to answer that question, but I couldn't remember it if I banged my head against the wall .

All I know is that it made perfect sense when I came up with it .


EDIT: I also used 'YB' to denote Beleriand years, even though I'm not sure it was ever attested - but I only used it because it's simpler than 'Bel.' and looks nicer IMO.

I also massively shortened the timespan between the birth of Galadriel and the creation of the Silmarils (here, it's less than 100 years; in AAm it's over 800!).

[James the Just]

The Second Age is somewhat less than 3,456 years (432 × 8).
The Third Age is somewhat less than 3,024 years (432 × 7).

Originally Posted by JRR Tolkien - Letter 211
*I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.

So the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Ages should be somewhat less than 6,480 years (432 × 15 or 8 + 7).
8 + 7 = 6 + 5 + 4.

Death of Trees is 24 VY (= 3,456 [YS]) after Awaking = VY 888. First Age should then occupy 4,032 years = 28 VY. That is 3,456 (Death of Trees) + 576 sun-years (= 4 VY). But actually war lasts until 600? So FA = 4,056 [YS] = 28[VY +]/24[YS].

If the number of years of the Years of Beleriand were only 590 then it would be 4,031 solar years from the start of that to the beginning of the Third Age.
That's one year less than 28 VY (144 × 28 = 4,032).

What is interesting is that a Great Year, or a full precession of the equinoxes, was traditionally thought to be 360 Great Days of 72 years each. This would come out to 25,920 years, or 180 VY. A Great Season, as it were, would be 6,480 years (432 × 15).
But, in actuality, a full precession cycle is closer to 25,800 years. That would make a season 6,450 years (430 × 15). Maybe that could explain why the ages are somewhat shorter.

[James the Just]

Here's an idea.

VY 1 1st Age
VY 73 2nd Age
VY 142 3rd Age
VY 208 4th Age
VY 271 5th Age
VY 331 6th Age
VY 388 7th Age

VY 442 1st Age
VY 493 2nd Age
VY 541 3rd Age
VY 586 4th Age
VY 628 5th Age
VY 667 6th Age
VY 703 7th Age
VY 736 8th Age

VY 766 1st Age
VY 793 2nd Age
VY 817 3rd Age
VY 838 4th Age
VY 856 5th Age
VY 871 6th Age
VY 883 7th Age
VY 892 8th Age
VY 898 9th Age

VY 901 1st Age
etc.

The entire cycle lasts for exactly 5 Great Years.