LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 07 - The Pyre of Denethor

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Interestingly, this chapter begins at the same point in the story as the previous chapter, and the end of Chapter 4 - the Witch King leaves the gate of Minas Tirith as the horns of Rohan sound. However, we switch points-of-view; here, we are looking through Pippin's eyes, seeing the battle from within the city.

The first question that occurs to me is: Why does Pippin go through so much effort to save Faramir's life? Do we have any back story that would explain that? And why does Gandalf choose to save him instead of the others whom he must necessarily neglect? Why is Faramir so important?

Connected to that is the second aspect - what would have been different if Denethor had not tried to take Faramir's life, at least? Would Gandalf have been able to save Théoden? He claims that he 'might' have. Would that have made a difference to the further storyline? Speculative questions, of course, but since when have we ever let that spoil a discussion?!

We have several mentions throughout the chapter of the will of the Enemy, at work in the heart of the city. Do you think the palantír came as a surprise to Gandalf, or did he suspect that all along? Sauron's influence is most sharply felt in divisiveness, even to the point of killing friends instead of foes. What is your opinion on Beregond's role in this unhappy event? Should he have acted differently?

Gandalf speaks of the "heathen kings" and their "pride and despair"; both of the latter traits are evident in Denethor. What is the difference between that kind of suicide and the voluntary giving up of life such as Aragorn's later on, following the gift given to the Númenoreans? Could Denethor still have changed his mind and aided his city and people, and what effect could that have had on the outcome of the battle?

Denethor announces the coming arrival of the Corsair ships - did you catch that brief mention at first reading, and did that raise the suspense for you?

Tolkien often mentions the theme of change, and we see that Denethor resists any change, wishing all to remain as it is. Is that his greatest failure? What do you think of his accusations to Gandalf?

Imrahil plays a small yet vital role again - how do we account for his position that makes him a candidate for temporary ruler?

What role did the palantír play in all of this? Do you think Denethor had the right to use it?

The chapter ends with a note on the weather - the combination of fire and rain results in smoke. Do you see any significance in that?

[davem]

But Pippin rose to his feet, as if a great weight had been lifted from him; and he stood listening to the horns, and it seemed to him that they would break his heart with joy. And never in after years could he hear a horn blow in the distance without tears starting in his eyes.

This immediately struck me, because its about the ‘after-effect’ of the Eucatastropic experience. The memory of it remains with one. Its not simply an experience that happens & is then gone & forgotten, Once the individual has had the Eucatastrophic experience it can be ‘triggered’ again in other times & places. Its as if the experience involves stepping outside normal time into ‘eternity’. It is as much a ‘state’ as an experience. The horns of the Rohirrim opened a doorway for Pippin & ever afterwards the sound of a horn remained a ‘key’ to that door for him. Crying is the result of a sudden uprush of emotion, & Tolkien later speaks of tears as ‘the very wine of blessedness’. The eucatastrophic experience or ‘state’ is bound up very closely with a feeling of ‘blessedness’, of something ‘breaking through’ into one’s awareness.

Something terrible may happen up there. The Lord is out of his mind, I think. I am afraid he will kill himself, and kill Faramir too. Can't you do something?'
Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go,' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.'...
'Can't you save Faramir?'
'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear.

I know this is something we’ve discussed before - did Gandalf feel that it was his task to confront the WK? Was it his task? From his words it seems that he was about to follow the WK & continue the confrontation, & felt that if he didn’t go the deaths of others would follow as a consequence. Maybe its not so simple though. What we see is almost a repetition of the situation on the Bridge of Khazad dum. There Gandalf had to face the Balrog in order to save his companions. He defeated his enemy but ‘died’ in the process. The Fellowship was saved. It was a sacrifice, but a ‘simple’ one - ie the Fellowship was not split into two groups with Gandalf forced to choose which to help & which to sacrifice. Here he must do just that. If he goes onto the field in pursuit of the WK he knows that Faramir will be burned alive. If he goes to the aid of Faramir (& by extension Denethor) then ‘others’ will die at the hands of the WK. What Gandalf does is choose to help Faramir because there is no-one else to do that. He does what is necessary & trusts that things will work out for the best. This is a theme that runs right through LotR.

I want to return to Gandalf’s confrontation with Denethor later but a few things struck me on reading the early drafts.

'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'

In this final version Gandalf uses the past tense to speak of ‘heathen kings’. In an earlier draft he uses the present tense & speaks not of the ‘Dark Power’ but of the ‘Dark Lord’. The passage as we have it could refer to either the ‘kings’ of the First Age under Morgoth or those of the Second Age under Sauron. The earlier version refers specifically to the Easterlings & Southrons who were attacking the city at that time. As to why the change was made, I wonder. The early passage makes a comparison between Denethor’s behaviour & that of his enemies, the earlier one between Denethor & rulers of the ancient past.

'He calls,' said Gandalf, 'but you cannot come to him yet. For he must seek healing on the threshold of death, and maybe find it not. Whereas your part is to go out to the battle of your City, where maybe death awaits you. This you know in your heart.'

In an earlier draft Gandalf adds:

For unless you go out into the battle of your city putting away despair & risking death in the field you will never speak again with him in the waking world.

This is an interesting turn of phrase - Denethor will ‘never speak again with Faramir in the waking world.’ Tolkien seems to be associating life with the ‘waking world’ & (supposedly) death with the ‘sleeping’, or dreaming, world.

Finally for now:

And he beheld with the sight that was given to him all that had befallen; and when Eomer rode out from the forefront of his battle and stood beside those who lay upon the field, he sighed, and he cast his cloak about him again, and went from the walls.

Gandalf ‘beheld with the sight that was given to him’. This seems to be equivalent to the ‘Second Sight’. Gandalf is seeing events whish have occurred on the field while he has been confronting Denethor & saving Faramir. The words ‘that was given to him’ are interesting. Do they mean that Gandalf had this ‘gift’ as a ‘permanent’ ability - can he see into the past at will - or is it a vision gifted to him now, as a one off thing? I’d go for the former - its an ability that Gandalf has always had. It seems to function along the lines of the Palantiri - he can see distant events & past events. I don’t know if this is a form of Sanwe or not, or if the ‘power’ Gandalf is making use of is similar to that sometimes used by the Elves. What makes me doubt this is the clear statement that the ‘sight’ was given to him. It seems to be an innate skill which the Palantiri were created to mimic.

I wonder if this is pointing up a difference between Gandalf & Denethor. Gandalf’s ‘sight’ is an ability that has been ‘given to him’ & so is ‘natural’, Denethor has used the Palantir, an unnatural, artificial, means of ‘seeing’. Gandalf sees clearly & truthfully, what Denethor sees is unclear, confused & misleading. Gandalf was given his ‘sight’, Denethor took his.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

An excellent lecture on "The Good, the Bad, and the Static: Wise Wanderers and Tired Travellers in Middle-earth" by Marjorie Willetts at 'Tolkien 2005' last week prompted me to think more deeply about Denethor's "I would have things as they were" speech in this chapter.

I know we've had past discussions about the theme of change in Tolkien's works. The events of the LotR ring in the Fourth Age, a major change in the history of Middle-earth. "Stopping change is stopping growth", Ms. Willett said, and I'm sure Tolkien would have agreed. In the context of this discussion, I will limit myself to the Steward and his failure - and/or unwillingness - to change.

Change has both a physical aspect (wandering, leaving the place where one is to go to another) and a psychological/spiritual aspect (being able to see from a different viewpoint, open to new experiences). Denethor identified himself so strongly with the one role he had to play as Steward that he was unwilling to change that role, fearing to jeopardize his identity in doing so. As so often happens, tragically, he accomplished precisely what he didn't want to - he jeopardized himself to the point of taking his own life rather than to change.

He stayed in one place, not even willing to leave his fortified city for the sake of battle. That gave him a very limited point of view - though the palantír gave him an additional one, unfortunately biased and twisted. He was not willing to see another point of view, in this case, that of Gandalf, which was the realistic one - he could have changed, could have gone out and fought. Gandalf says:

your part is to go out to the battle of your City
(my emphasis)

But he denied himself that option. Despair resulted from his decision to remain static, though there could have been hope. (In contrast, Théoden arose, went out, and looked from a different viewpoint - and gained hope and purpose!) Choosing to stay rather than to move resulted in 'nothingness', a personal Void; he says:

But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught

Denethor prides himself on the knowledge he has, but knowledge is not enough. Without the experience and wisdom that comes from growth and change, he cannot profit from it.

Not only that, he takes it upon himself to make the same decision for his son Faramir! He will not allow him to make any changes. Gandalf's words are wonderful here:

at the least you shall not rob your son of his choice

Later on, we see that Faramir decided to allow for change in his life and his office as Steward, and in doing so, he retained his identity and his task, achieving growth and wisdom.

Denethor stands in sharp contrast to Gandalf, the ultimate wanderer of Middle-earth, who has gained wisdom and experience, has a balanced point of view, and is willing to change even to the point of leaving Middle-earth when his task there is fulfilled.


PS - davem's signature quote is quite appropriate to this discussion!

'The man who never alters his opinion is like standing water & breeds reptiles of the mind'...William Blake

[drigel]

Davem, I have always been intrigued by the "Gandalf ‘beheld with the sight that was given to him" paragraph as well. Maia vision or perhaps a touch of omnipresense? Of particular note for me was the sentence before that paragraph:

......and there like a figure carven in white he stood in the new sun and looked out.

The most famous alliterative symbolism rearing its ugly head again.

also

He <Gandalf> lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house;...

I wondered why that trick wasn't used on the WK.

[davem]

Denethor's tragedy seems to have its root in his desire for the impossible - whatever happens he will not get what he wants. He wants things to be as they were in the past. Whether Sauron achieves the victory or Aragorn returns in triumph, Denethor loses. As Esty says he has effectively 'painted himself into a corner'. He cannot move, because he has nowhere to go.

Its kind of an 'Elvish' desire - he wants to embalm the past & fix it immobile & unchanging. Only death provides a way out. Symbolically the Elves make the same choice. Once the Rings pass they can no longer hold things in stasis, so they too have no option but to leave the world. Denethor's words could have come from the mouth of any Elf:

'What then would you have,' said Gandalf, 'if your will could have its way?'
'I would have things as they were in all the days of my life,' answered Denethor, 'and in the days of my longfathers before me:

The similarity of Denethor's death with that of Feanor is perhaps deliberate. Both are victims of pride, desirous of absolute control & contemptuous of any who are not with them.

. But if doom denies this to me, then I will have naught: neither life diminished, nor love halved, nor honour abated.'

I can't help thinking 'doom' here is meant to echo the Doom of the Noldor.

[Bêthberry]

Once again Estelyn, a good introduction to the discussion!

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Imrahil plays a small yet vital role again - how do we account for his position that makes him a candidate for temporary ruler?

You know, at this point in the story I wasn't wondering why Imrahil was given command. I wondered on what point of law or legal right Gandalf could take that decision upon himself to give a military command. What authority does Gandalf have to assign Imrahil the command?

Originally Posted by Estelyn

What role did the palantír play in all of this? Do you think Denethor had the right to use it?

The point which I find absolutely fascinating here is the suggestion that the palantir survives the pyre of Denethor.

Originally Posted by Tolkien

Casting the pieces into the blaze he bowed and laid himself on the table, clasping the palantir with both hands upon his breast. And it was said that ever after, if any man looked in that Stone, unless he had great strength of will to turn it to other purpose, he saw only two aged hands withering in flame.

What grounds for an RPG, eh?

Originally Posted by Estelyn

The chapter ends with a note on the weather - the combination of fire and rain results in smoke. Do you see any significance in that?

Habeus Rex?

[Alphaelin]

To take up Estelyn's first point in the introductory post: Why would Faramir be so important to Pippin and to the story? I don't know if it would be considered a backstory or not, but through Pippin's eyes we are shown more of Faramir's nature.

Although we readers have met Faramir and have already seen his fortitude in refusing to take the Ring from Frodo, Pippin knows nothing of this. He is 'introduced' to Faramir by Gandalf's description of him, and the praise of Beregond. The reader is thus given more insight into the nature of Denethor's younger son.

Gandalf:

"He [Denethor] is not as other men of this time...by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir whom he loved best."

Beregond:

"But things may change when Faramir returns. He is bold; more bold than many deem, for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song, as he is, yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field. But such is Faramir."

We see in both these quotes the start of a pattern in which Faramir is constantly compared to his older brother, either favorably (by Gandalf and Beregond and even Sam in TTT) or unfavorably (by Denethor).

The importance of Faramir may be that he does compare so favorably with his father and brother. So far, Gondor's ruling family has been represented largely by Boromir's pride and dependence on physical prowess and Denethor's pride and dependence on his mental and political abilities. Then Pippin gets his first sight of Faramir.

Yet suddenly for Faramir his heart was strangely moved with a feeling that he had not known before. Here was one with an air of high nobility such as Aragorn sometimes revealed, less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote: one of the Kings of Men born into a later time, but touched with the wisdom and sadness of the Elder Race. He knew now why Beregond spoke his name with love. Here was a Captain that men would follow, that he would follow, even under the shadow of the black wings."

Faramir has the gift of inspiring instant devotion in his troops, he is described as both wise and courageous and in his determination to do his duty to Gondor ("unblessed" by his demanding father, no less!) we see a further example of his nobility. Perhaps Tolkien wanted to show someone besides Aragorn who could demonstrate the best of traits of the Numenorians. Or from a political standpoint, as the heir to the Stewardship Faramir was in a position to inspire resistance to Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor, which his father would certainly have done. With Faramir as the Steward, however, the stage is set for an orderly transfer of power into Aragorn's hands.


Also, here is a little tidbit to consider about the sons of Denethor. Boromir dying to save Pippin and Merry probably ended up saving his brother's life. Pippin swore fealty to Denethor inspired by his liking for Boromir and his gratitude for Boromir's sacrifice. Denethor kept Pippin near him as a reminder of Boromir. When Denethor decided to burn himself and Faramir, a Gondorian soldier might not have thought to question Denethor's orders or seek help from Gandalf, as Pippin did.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Esty

Why does Pippin go through so much effort to save Faramir's life? Do we have any back story that would explain that?

I think this sentiment goes back to when Pippin first saw Faramir. He realized why Beregond spoke of his Captain with so much love and reverence, and found out for himself that Faramir is indeed the kind of leader anyone would follow even unto death. Since he has become a 'Man' of Gondor, it is his duty to look after its welfare; seeing that the ruling steward has turned pyromaniacally suicidal and is about to bring his son - his only remaining 'heir' - to the pyre with him, he knew he had to take action.

Sauron's influence is most sharply felt in divisiveness, even to the point of killing friends instead of foes. What is your opinion on Beregond's role in this unhappy event? Should he have acted differently?

That brings me to wonder whether or not I agree with Gandalf in this:

'Work of the Enemy!' said Gandalf. 'Such deeds he loves: friend at war with friend; loyalty divided in confusion of hearts.'

Sauron's work, as I see it, was in Denethor alone, yet it created a ripple effect that Beregond was caught up in. While Beregond's deed is not completely of Sauron's making, it was an inevitable effect. But come to think of it, did his killing of the porter bring more good than harm? If he did not resort to that, what would have happened to Faramir, and to Gondor ultimately?

The chapter ends with a note on the weather - the combination of fire and rain results in smoke. Do you see any significance in that?

Hmm...smoke is the 'aftermath' of the rain drenching the fire. False hope? Darkness clouding the light to take away hope? A temporary truce? Can fire be rekindled from smoke?

That's all for now, folks.

[davem]

'Since when has the Lord of Gondor been answerable to thee?' said Denethor. 'Or may I not command my own servants?'

Denethor again shows that he believes himself to be absolute monarch of Gondor - or perhaps something more. He seems to believe that his position gives him power of life & death over his servants, There is no room on their part for moral choices. Whatever Denethor says is Law & his servants must obey. Power has gone to his head. The slaves of the Dark Lord slay themselves at the command of the WK, & it seems that Denethor demands no less. The oath sworn by Pippin (& one assumes by the others in the service of Gondor/Denethor) is very precise:

'Here do I swear fealty and service to Gondor, and to the Lord and Steward of the realm, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to come and to go, in need or plenty, in peace or war, in living or dying, from this hour henceforth, until my lord release me, or death take me, or the world end.

In Denethor’s mind at least this oath is little better than an ‘oath’ of slavery. Once sworn it gives Denethor power to command whatever he will & obliges (as far as he is concerned) his servants to obey his will without question. He cannot seem to get free of this idea - even when his ‘power’ extends to the life & death of his son. He simply cannot understand how anyone in his service could question any of his commands.

The interesting thing is that when he is confronted with the outcome of his command to Faramir he is broken by it. He commanded his son to undertake what was effectively a suicide mission, but when his son is apparently mortally wounded as a result of his order, he snaps. He claims the power of life & death over others, but he cannot accept the consequences. Shockingly, he still cannot break himself of using that power. He has seen the result of its use first hand & yet he is still driven by his pride to command his servants to commit murder. Like Saruman, he has looked into the Palantir & striven with Sauron. Saruman surrendered, Denethor did not, but it seems that in some way both of them ended up by ‘imitating’ Sauron in the way they treat their servants.

What’s interesting in this context is the way Denethor’s servants seem to accept this power. They don’t seem (apart from Beregond) to question Denethor’s will. They seem little better than robots, apparently feeling that the oath they swore removes their own moral responsibility & they can claim that whatever they do they we’re ‘only obeying orders’. We see how far Gondor has fallen.

Finally, Denethor’s comment is interesting:

'Hope on then!' laughed Denethor. 'Do I not know thee, Mithrandir? Thy hope is to rule in my stead, to stand behind every throne, north, south, or west.

Denethor accuses Gandalf of desiring to replace him and to ‘stand behind every throne’. Denethor betrays his true sense of himself here - he, Denethor, should rightfully stand behind every throne - not Gandalf. He can only think in terms of rule, power, control. In his mind Gandalf can desire no more than to replace him - what higher aim could he have? Saruman has accused Gandalf of the same desire & no doubt Sauron believes the same thing. Once exposed to the mind & will of Sauron it seems that the individual is infected by his mindset - whether they surrender & offer fealty or not.

[the phantom]

Imrahil plays a small yet vital role again - how do we account for his position that makes him a candidate for temporary ruler?

You know, at this point in the story I wasn't wondering why Imrahil was given command. I wondered on what point of law or legal right Gandalf could take that decision upon himself to give a military command. What authority does Gandalf have to assign Imrahil the command?

I suppose it might seem a bit presumptuous for Gandalf to go around appointing people and such, but seeing as he is a person of importance in the city (he was a seventh circle regular, a royal advisor, and was given clearance to come and go as he pleased) he might as well give orders, especially since he knew what was best.

For instance, when my friends and I play a game of football, I don't hold any sort of legal power, but when I say "Ok, here's what we're going to do..." my friends don't argue with me. They believe that I am properly qualified to lead them and make decisions so I really don't need to "pull rank" on them.

I think the same thing goes for Gandalf. He is qualified to lead and make decisions and he is powerful and everyone knows it, so why not give orders?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I suppose it might seem a bit presumptuous for Gandalf to go around appointing people and such, but seeing as he is a person of importance in the city (he was a seventh circle regular, a royal advisor, and was given clearance to come and go as he pleased) he might as well give orders, especially since he knew what was best.

For instance, when my friends and I play a game of football, I don't hold any sort of legal power, but when I say "Ok, here's what we're going to do..." my friends don't argue with me. They believe that I am properly qualified to lead them and make decisions so I really don't need to "pull rank" on them.

I think the same thing goes for Gandalf. He is qualified to lead and make decisions and he is powerful and everyone knows it, so why not give orders?

Because Mithrandir has a dubious reputation in several places over Middle-earth and it is only readers who have a complete trust in him. And Pippin and the hobbits. Make that only these particular hobbits.

My question isn't really so much about 'pulling rank' as asking how and why characters in M-e come to have 'authority.' Or even simply, 'what is authority?'--which is I think one of the larger issues in this chapter especially in light of Beregond.