The Magic of the Races - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Thranduil · 08-19-2002, 11:14 AM

What is the extent of the magic use amongst the different races in LOTR and are there any socerrers (good and bad)?
I'll start off listing examples:

MEN: There's the curse of Isildur, blades of Westernesse, shape-shifting (Beorn), communicating with animals (the people of Dale or really the royalty of Dale perhaps with birds).

DWARVES: communicating with animals (ravens, if you read in THe Hobbit), enchanting doors (the blocked door in The Fellowhip...).

ELVES: blades (from Gondolin), healing, control over nature (to some extent, if it's in their realm), and probably a lot more; I just can't remember.

If you know any more examples, or can explain any of these ones listed, or just wanna tell what you know, it would be appreciated.

Thanks

O'Boile · 08-19-2002, 01:07 PM

Well you could add the creation of the palantiri to the elves magical accomplishments. Also, the pool of Galadriel. Also, their cloaks.

Orome · 08-19-2002, 01:19 PM

i think that it is more of a "power" than "magic" yeah the terms can be used interchangably but tolkien called what you are calling the magic of the elves a power you can find the thread by doing a search for "elvish magic" i'm too lazy tofind it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Child of the 7th Age · 08-19-2002, 01:35 PM

And, apparently, what we think of as "magic" is not how the Elves conceived of their powers. Remember how Galadriel spoke with Sam as she showed the hobbits her "Mirror"? Sam had just spoken on the page before how he would "dearly love to see some Elf-magic."

Quote:

"And you?" she said, turning to Sam. "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galdadriel. Did you not say that you wished to see Elf-magic?"

Sam, I'm afraid got more than he bargained for, as this was when he saw the terrible images of the Shire enslaved, as later happened in the Scouring.

I think Tolkien's big distinction in Middle-earth was not between magic and non-magic, but rather what uses people put their powers to. Tolkien frowned at any kind of overt manipulation of the environment, and saw it as corruption. This was true whether the corruption came through "magic" or the "technology" that someone like Saruman employed. In fact, I clearly remember reading somewhere---perhap the Letters?--that techonology of the modern world was often simply a modern means of corrupt magic, to wield control over things we should let grow and develop on their own.

So any discussion of magic in Tolkien is necessarily very complicated.

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

Thranduil · 08-19-2002, 02:15 PM

I see, very good points. Thanks much!

I mean, you're right; Tolkien never came out and said "they used their special magic," it was a subtle kind of use.

Birdland · 08-19-2002, 05:06 PM

Don't forget the magic of the hobbits - sneakin'! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

onewhitetree · 08-19-2002, 05:21 PM

I think a more appropriate and less confusing term would be "skills".

[ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: onewhitetree ]

Aralaithiel · 08-19-2002, 05:50 PM

I agree with you, onewhitetree. Hobbits definitely had "skills"! :-D

gayare'dion · 08-19-2002, 08:44 PM

which race do you think is the most magical ?

onewhitetree · 08-20-2002, 10:53 AM

I don't think any of them were "magical" at all. The most skilled race, discounting the Istari because they had extra help from being Maiar, would without question be the Elves. Think about it: palantiri, silmarils, rings. Not to mention the somewhat less "magickal" seeming talents in healing. I imagine they wove a mean basket, too.

Birdland · 08-20-2002, 05:06 PM

And their Lembas was magically delicious!

Gandalf_theGrey · 08-20-2002, 06:46 PM

Hullo Child of the 7th Age:

* bows a cheery enough greeting before turning to musing *

Indeed, as you point out,

Quote:

Tolkien frowned at any kind of overt manipulation of the environment, and saw it as corruption.

One example. Farther and farther roads must be taken into the Wilds to enjoy pure starlight bearing the merest hint of splendor first beheld at Cuiviénen. But few now look up, few realize their loss. And alas, many indeed come to depend upon pallid counterfeit light until they become numb to and forgetful of realms beyond. At least through the mirk and gloom of astonishingly unnatural light, the gleaming of Eärendil remains visible still, even in this Age.

Gandalf the Grey

mark12_30 · 08-20-2002, 08:08 PM

Gandalf, you're making me want one of those "Dark Sky Society" bumperstickers... or whatever it's called. Do your outdoor lights point downward? (I've tried and tried to convince my husband.) I live in a neighborhood with no streetlights-- so people mount floodlights on their houses and leave them on half the night. Mmgprhstrgmph.

At least we can still see the Milky Way on dark nights. And Menelgavor of the shining belt. And The Wain...

mark12_30 · 08-20-2002, 08:10 PM

Thranduil, the line that sticks with me is the line ethat the Lorien elves say when the fellowship is given their gifts-- "We put the thought of all we love into what we make." That is their skill, their magic, their craft, their... elvishness. From Feanor to Galadriel to Arwen, that's what makes elven things, well, Elven. The thought of what they love shines through in their creations.

Even in the meals they serve and the ropes they make.

littlemanpoet · 08-21-2002, 10:37 AM

I've just brought current "Magic in Middle Earth" because it answers some of the questions being asked here. It's quite old, and quite interesting. Take a peak.

[ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

Child of the 7th Age · 08-21-2002, 09:59 PM

In addition to thinking of magic as "skills," there's another aspect here that's been overlooked. I think most people would agree that the Phial of Galadriel is an example of Elvish magic. Galadriel took the waters of her own fountain (i.e. her mirror)and captured the wonderful rays of white light. And the phial certainly proved magical for Frodo and Sam. Just as Galadriel promises, it is able to protect them "when all other lights go out." Time and again it helps them in their quest--letting Frodo overcome his desire for the Ring, blinding Shelob, and crumbling the gate of the Tower of Cirith Ungol.

But what did this magic really consist of? Galadriel said the crystal phial "caught the light of Earendil's star." This means, in effect, the phial was a sliver of the Silmarilli which in turn had captured the light of the two trees. And the two trees were created by Yavanna's power of song and Nienna's tears of compassion.

So what does this suggest to us? Where does all this "magic" lead us? At least some of the so called magic of the Elves actually had what we in modern life might call a "spiritual base." At its most powerful, as in Galadriel's phial, Elvish magic included skills and powers that derived from the Valar themselves. This, to me, places it in a higher category than mere "skills"

sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

08-19-2002, 11:14 AM	#1
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	The Magic of the Races What is the extent of the magic use amongst the different races in LOTR and are there any socerrers (good and bad)? I'll start off listing examples: MEN: There's the curse of Isildur, blades of Westernesse, shape-shifting (Beorn), communicating with animals (the people of Dale or really the royalty of Dale perhaps with birds). DWARVES: communicating with animals (ravens, if you read in THe Hobbit), enchanting doors (the blocked door in The Fellowhip...). ELVES: blades (from Gondolin), healing, control over nature (to some extent, if it's in their realm), and probably a lot more; I just can't remember. If you know any more examples, or can explain any of these ones listed, or just wanna tell what you know, it would be appreciated. Thanks

08-19-2002, 05:21 PM	#7
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	I think a more appropriate and less confusing term would be "skills". [ August 19, 2002: Message edited by: onewhitetree ] __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

08-19-2002, 05:50 PM	#8
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I agree with you, onewhitetree. Hobbits definitely had "skills"! :-D __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

08-19-2002, 08:44 PM	#9
gayare'dion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 75	which race do you think is the most magical ? __________________ i like pants!

08-20-2002, 10:53 AM	#10
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	I don't think any of them were "magical" at all. The most skilled race, discounting the Istari because they had extra help from being Maiar, would without question be the Elves. Think about it: palantiri, silmarils, rings. Not to mention the somewhat less "magickal" seeming talents in healing. I imagine they wove a mean basket, too. __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

08-19-2002, 01:07 PM	#2
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Well you could add the creation of the palantiri to the elves magical accomplishments. Also, the pool of Galadriel. Also, their cloaks.

08-19-2002, 01:19 PM	#3
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	i think that it is more of a "power" than "magic" yeah the terms can be used interchangably but tolkien called what you are calling the magic of the elves a power you can find the thread by doing a search for "elvish magic" i'm too lazy tofind it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

08-19-2002, 02:15 PM	#5
Thranduil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 30	I see, very good points. Thanks much! I mean, you're right; Tolkien never came out and said "they used their special magic," it was a subtle kind of use.

08-19-2002, 05:06 PM	#6
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Don't forget the magic of the hobbits - sneakin'! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

08-20-2002, 05:06 PM	#11
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	And their Lembas was magically delicious!

08-20-2002, 08:08 PM	#13
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Gandalf, you're making me want one of those "Dark Sky Society" bumperstickers... or whatever it's called. Do your outdoor lights point downward? (I've tried and tried to convince my husband.) I live in a neighborhood with no streetlights-- so people mount floodlights on their houses and leave them on half the night. Mmgprhstrgmph. At least we can still see the Milky Way on dark nights. And Menelgavor of the shining belt. And The Wain... __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

08-20-2002, 08:10 PM	#14
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Thranduil, the line that sticks with me is the line ethat the Lorien elves say when the fellowship is given their gifts-- "We put the thought of all we love into what we make." That is their skill, their magic, their craft, their... elvishness. From Feanor to Galadriel to Arwen, that's what makes elven things, well, Elven. The thought of what they love shines through in their creations. Even in the meals they serve and the ropes they make. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

08-21-2002, 10:37 AM	#15
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	I've just brought current "Magic in Middle Earth" because it answers some of the questions being asked here. It's quite old, and quite interesting. Take a peak. [ August 21, 2002: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

08-21-2002, 09:59 PM	#16
Child of the 7th Age Spirit of the Lonely Star Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 5,133	In addition to thinking of magic as "skills," there's another aspect here that's been overlooked. I think most people would agree that the Phial of Galadriel is an example of Elvish magic. Galadriel took the waters of her own fountain (i.e. her mirror)and captured the wonderful rays of white light. And the phial certainly proved magical for Frodo and Sam. Just as Galadriel promises, it is able to protect them "when all other lights go out." Time and again it helps them in their quest--letting Frodo overcome his desire for the Ring, blinding Shelob, and crumbling the gate of the Tower of Cirith Ungol. But what did this magic really consist of? Galadriel said the crystal phial "caught the light of Earendil's star." This means, in effect, the phial was a sliver of the Silmarilli which in turn had captured the light of the two trees. And the two trees were created by Yavanna's power of song and Nienna's tears of compassion. So what does this suggest to us? Where does all this "magic" lead us? At least some of the so called magic of the Elves actually had what we in modern life might call a "spiritual base." At its most powerful, as in Galadriel's phial, Elvish magic included skills and powers that derived from the Valar themselves. This, to me, places it in a higher category than mere "skills" sharon, the 7th age hobbit [ August 22, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ] __________________ Multitasking women are never too busy to vote.