Are the Elves Foolish?

"Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."
Frodo Baggins

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill."
Gildor Inglorion

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

"Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill."
Gildor Inglorion

You speak of a wise & powerful High Elf. Do you believe all elves fall into this category?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Maybe you should better specify your question, then. I believe that if an Elf "answers both no and yes", he does that for a good reason. Those who are all hurry into doing or not doing something would I consider "foolish", but to them the "proverb" does not apply. For example (sorry to all Fëanor-fans) Fëanor could be considered "foolish" in his furious "revolution". And here I think is a good example: if an elf asked his friend whether he should or should not join Fëanor's campagin, a "wise" elf could say both no and yes like this: "Well, you see, you're probably going to suffer and maybe even cause trouble to others and in the end you won't reach your goal. However, I'm not saying that the campaign will be totally useless, because the Noldor could help the other inhabitants of Middle-Earth and protect them from the Enemy." A "non-wise" elf will then be all rallying for Fëanor or judging the whole campaign as totally useless. Neither of these two possibilities, as we know from the story, can be with clean conscience marked to be true.

[Elmo]

yes they are no and no they aren't

[Boromir88]

Let's give Frodo's statement about Elves a little bit of context. I've always liked the meeting with Gildor, because it provides a little bit of light-hearted banter between Frodo and the Elves (if I remember Gildor says hobbits were 'boring.' ) Anyway...

Gildor was silent for a moment. 'I do not like this news,' he said at last. 'That Gandalf should be late, does not bode well. But it is said: Do not meddle in the affairs of Wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. The choice is yours: to go or wait.'

Which promps Frodo's response about not going to the Elves for advice, as Gildor just said both 'yes and no.'

'And it is also said,' answered Frodo. 'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'

On a personal level, I found this rather funny because my niece tells me all the time I'm the same way, and gets angry as I say both 'yes and no.' It's not that the Elves are indecisive, or foolish, just that I don't think making decisions should be treated that simple.

To use Legate's example, it's not wise to make a decision if you don't know the positives and negatives of all the options. If you throw your support behind just one of the options (either 'rally behind Feanor' or 'stay away from him') that's arguably not good advice.

I've always believed 'good advice' in the way Gildor approaches it; to make a good decision you have to weigh all your options, not just one. Another key is leaving the choice up to the person making the decision.

'Here are the positives and negatives if you do this, here are the positives and negatives if you dont. Ok, now you make your choice.'

Which, of course to Frodo (and my niece) looks like you're saying 'yes and no.'

Gandalf always approaches it the same way, he can be at times more, how should I say, 'aggressive' but he always leaves the decision up to the individual. He doesn't force Denethor, Theoden, Saruman, or anyone to listen to his advice...Gandalf is all about the individual making their own decision.

'Now Theoden son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?...Do you ask for help?'~King of the Golden Hall

Originally Posted by Elmo

yes they are no and no they aren't

Do you want a piece of Gandalf's staff too? This is a serious thread question, not a Hobbit chit-chat session.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you want a piece of Gandalf's staff too? This is a serious thread question, not a Hobbit chit-chat session.

I don't know if this is some inside-joke you have with Elmo, but I'd say that your answer is a little too agressive for my liking... you wrote one sentence and did not expand on your thought process that lead to the question of whether elves are foolish, I wouldn't blame someone for answering the same way

Now going bacak to the question, I'd say that saying "both yes and no" is actually proof of their wisdom rather than their foolishness. As it was mentioned before, it takes real wisdom to weigh all options and put them in perspective.

There is also another quote I find rather important

Originally Posted by Gildor

But what would you? You have not told me all concerning yourself; and how then shall I choose better than you?

How can an elf (or anyone for that matter) be expected to know what to do in a situation better than the person who is involved in that situation?

Of course, sometimes the tree does not let us see the forest, therefore the best advice one can get is no advice at all but rather help in putting things in perspective... which often looks as if we are being told both yes and no. Then, being able to see things from all angles, the person seeking for advice will be able to find the best answer possible.

Therefore, I would say, saying both "yes and no" is not evidence of foolishness but rather proof of true understanding.

Originally Posted by Farael

I don't know if this is some inside-joke you have with Elmo, but I'd say that your answer is a little too agressive for my liking... you wrote one sentence and did not expand on your thought process that lead to the question of whether elves are foolish, I wouldn't blame someone for answering the same way.

Recall the words of Gandalf to Pippin at the doors of Moria, & when he throws a stone in the well, amongst other examples. Aggressive is a strange word to use, too strong for my liking. Hobbit humour may be used in threads to address foolishness.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Recall the words of Gandalf to Pippin at the doors of Moria, & when he throws a stone in the well, amongst other examples. Aggressive is a strange word to use, too strong for my liking. Hobbit humour may be used in threads to address foolishness.

As I said, I did not know if it was a joke or not, it just sounded off to me... my apologies if I over-reacted. Let's get back on track though

[Elmo]

Do you want a piece of Gandalf's staff too? This is a serious thread question, not a Hobbit chit-chat session.

haha that's hilarious, i'll keep my tomfoolery to the minimum in the future

Originally Posted by Elmo

haha that's hilarious, i'll my tomfoolery to minimum in the future

This thread is fast becoming "Are Hobbits Foolish?"

Originally Posted by Farael

Therefore, I would say, saying both "yes and no" is not evidence of foolishness but rather proof of true understanding.

What them would you say of Elrond when he said his heart was against the going of 2 Hobbits with the Company? On what basis of logic did he make that decision? He quite clearly had his mind made up before Gandalf reasoned with him. In this case a yes or no scenario between these great Loremasters was devised, yet you say Gildor will not yield with doing the same?

[Meriadoc1961]

I don't know if one can say that ALL elves are wise or ALL elves are foolish. Some are wise, and some are not so wise. Should we say the elves who let Bilbo and the Dwarves escape through the trap door acted wisely by getting drunk? Or should we say they acted foolish? Or should we say that in that case they behaved foolishly, just as they behaved foolishly by singing a song that poked fun of Thorin and Co. and mentioned Bilbo and keyholes as Gandalf, Bilbo and the Dwarves descended into the valley of Rivendell?

Did Thranduil behave foolishly or act wisely by imprisoning Thorin and the Dwarves?

Did Thranduil not show wisdom and compassion by helping the people of Lake Town after Smaug's attack?

Since I am sounding like an Elf myself by saying both yea and nay, I will now offer my opinion: As a general rule I believe the Elves are a wise people, and their leaders, at least by the end of the Third Age, are among the wisest of all individuals.

Merry

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Mansun

What them would you say of Elrond when he said his heart was against the going of 2 Hobbits with the Company? On what basis of logic did he make that decision? He quite clearly had his mind made up before Gandalf reasoned with him. In this case a yes or no scenario between these great Loremasters was devised, yet you say Gildor will not yield with doing the same?

Ah, but it is not the same scenario... not only was Elrond talking to Gandalf, but He was the one in charge of making the choice. It was decided that Elrond would decide whom he'd send along with Frodo and Sam, therefore he wasn't offering advice, he was making a choice.

Gandalf, on the other hand, is a) not an elf and b) offering advice on the basis of what "his heart" tells him rather than logic. If logic would have been heeded and Merry and Pippin sent back, it is true that the Ring may not have been destroyed, but conversely if it HAD been destroyed anyway, The Shire may have not been scoured