The Silmarils

[Sleepy Ranger]

Why didnt Melkor/Morgoth destroy the Silmarils? I mean it would have helped him i the light of the trees of valinor were in them and the trees destroyed why did he not destroy them? There as got to be a point I'm missing somewhere

[Måns]

He did have a reason for not destroying them. He, quite simply, wanted them, he envied Fëanor who ahd made them and wanted them forever to be his. Simply put, he was greedy, the light of the valar was the ahrdes strike he could deal them, so he did and in the chaos afterwards he snatched hte silmarils which became his fall, he drew the rage of the Noldor upon himself.

Welcome to the forum! Måns

[Sleepy Ranger]

Thanks for the welcome and telling me why Melkor did not destroy the Silmarils anyway I have another question Melkor surely had the strength to wipe out the Noldor he could have done it(maybe not easily) but he could have so why didnt he?

[Lord of Angmar]

Melkor surely had the strength to wipe out the Noldor he could have done it

I believe that this was one of his primary goals throughout the entire First Age. He would have if he could have.

[Måns]

Well, he surely amde some attempts, as the many battles prove! But when he succeded, after the destruction of gondolin, he counted the remaining elves for nothing, completely ignored them adn they were, logically seen not a threat to him, they could do nothign alone and he did not expect them succeding in convincing (he didn't even know they tried) the Valar to help them.

Måns

[Voralphion]

As for why Morgoth didn't destroy the Silmarils, apart from wanting them, I don't think he could have destroyed them if he tried. They were holy jewels and burned him if he touched them, and they can even survive in the molten core of the earth, where one of them finished up. Morgoth couldn't have destroyed them even if he wanted to.

In response to the Noldor, Morgoth did almost succeed in wiping them out, with them only having one major settlement left, the havens at Tol Sirion (I think that is what it was called) and this was then destroyed by the sons of Feanor. If the War of the Wrath didn't occur, the Noldor (and other elves) would've been completely wiped out from Middle Earth in a short period of time.

[Morgoth the Great]

there were 5 battles in the war of the Ring. Melkor lost the first 3, and came back to win the end two, which proved decisive. he clearly didnt wipe out the Noldor through lack of trying, and indeed, he may not of won the last battle, if it hadnt of been for the men losing heart and betraying. no, i think Melkor was unable to overthrow the Noldor completely because he did not have the power to do so

[Måns]

I don't see your point here, he DID wipe them out! If we were in a fight, god forbid, and you it me three times, but then I come and hit you two times, bringing you down on the floor, who has won? Who was beaten? Surely he tried, every single abttle was an attempt to wipe out the enemy present in Beleriand, but he failed. After the Nirnaeth Arnoediad he subsequently destroyed Nargothrond and Gondolin. After that, he thoguht he ahd wiped them out, he ahd destroyed hteir cities, driven them from their homes, slain their nobles and peoples, what more do you ask of him? Do you seriosuly mean that after the destruction of Gondolin he had not the power to sack the puny havens of Brithombar, if he ever heard of them. He cared not, he would deal with them in time.
If you read though the last chapters of the Quenta Silmarillion, you will see what I mean.

Måns

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

no, i think Melkor was unable to overthrow the Noldor completely because he did not have the power to do so.

Mans has said it. Morgoth did overthrow the Noldor. It took hundreds of years, but in the end they were utterly crippled and merely awaiting annihilation in Morgoth's own time, while Beleriand was wholly under the control of his forces.

In the end, he was defeated -- but by Valinor. He crushed the Noldor. Perhaps a fairly good analogy could be found in the example of WWII France.

As for the initial question, Voralphion is correct. The Silmarils were indestructible in Arda;
So that no violence in Arda may mar or break them.
Feanor, their maker and the only one who knew their secret, was the only one who could have destroyed them -- as Yavanna asked him to do after the death of the Trees.

[Morgoth the Great]

but he didnt wipe them all out, is my point. he did overthrow them(only to be beaten himself) but he did not wipe out the last remnants of them. maybe i got the jist of it incorrectly, but not all the Noldor were slain. almost of them were, it is true, but i thought it was whether he had complete dominance over them, which he did not, as some escaped.

[Morgoth the Great]

i also have a good point, lol. he could of given them to Ungoliant if he wished them destroyed, but instead he destroyed her, thus proving that he did indeed want the Silmarils, and not simply wish to deny Feanor of them(and i hope this almost makes up for my previous folly)

[Måns]

Hehehe WWII France... Mayeb Númenor would eb a better analogy, beat one enemy btu then attacked the one that was their irreversible superior, CCCP.

Well anyway, ti is clearly said in the Silmarillion that he counted the remains of teh edain and Noldor for nothing and did not care to destroy them. He ahd the strength from Nirnaeth on, but didn't because he saw no reason ot bother, what could they do him?

Måns

[Firnantoonion]

Morgoth didn't destroy the Noldor completely: some lived on and mingled themselves with the other elvish races.

(I thought Galadriel was a Noldor, wasn't she related to feanor?)

[Mariska Greenleaf]

I thought Galadriel was a Noldor, wasn't she related to feanor?)

She was a Noldo, and her relation to feanor was that his fathers second wife, Indis, was her grandmother.

[Reyna Evergreen]

About why Melkor didn't destroy the Silmarils: why destroy pretty and shiny jewels when you can gloat over them?

Why he didn't wipe out the Noldor in one hit: If he could, I think he was waiting to make it big. I think he wanted to be remembered in history as the great big evil Vala who destoryed the Noldor once in for all, in one big swipe of his power.

Or he was just an idiot, either way...

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

he could of given them to Ungoliant if he wished them destroyed, but instead he destroyed her,

He did not destroy her, she was much stronger than him by that time.
Morgoth did overthrow the Noldor and he did seem to be winning, but he might have overestimated his defeated enemies.
Being evil, he did not know forgiveness, however, so it is very unlikely he would suspect the Valar to help them.
Then again, wouldn't he suspect the Valar wanting to be rid of him [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]?

-Aredhel

[Måns]

Actually, no. Almost in teh same breath as it is said that he did not ccare for the remaining Noldor and didn't know forgiveness, he is said to have thought that they would live in their bliss and happiness in Valinor and let him rule Middle Earth and Men.

Måns

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yet it is said that Morgoth looked not for the assault that came... he thought that he had forever estranged the Noldor from the Lord of the West, and that content in their blissful realm the Valar would heed no more to his kingdom in the world without; for to him that is pitiless the deeds of pity are forever strange and beyond reckoning.

That should just about say it, Aredhel. Although what you said about Ungoliant; he could have destroyed her then, although she had swelled in her power immensely after devouring the life of the Trees (while he, through his long grounding in Valinor, was weakened at this time), through the Balrogs that came to his rescue. This scene, that between Ungoliant and the newly-christened Morgoth, is one that I have always found particularly interesting -- evil versus evil, and the bigger evil (Morgoth, after summoning help) prevails.

Remember that Melkor was still a Vala, and said to be the most powerful of all the Ainur. He was mightier than Ungoliant. After his return to Angband, he would have again grown in his power; and most importantly through the power he had invested (the Balrogs, for example), he was by far her superior.

Make no mistake about the Noldor, though. Morgoth was going to wipe them out, along with the other peoples of Beleriand that were left in opposition to him. As I have said he defeated and squashed them totally, his forces controlled Beleriand and -- not expecting their succour from the West -- he was merely taking his own time. Quite possibily savouring his final, hard-fought victory now it had come.

(Morgoth the Great -- no, obviously he didn't wipe them out. Many Elves escaped him, a significant number in various corners of the land. But he did have dominance. He had beaten them, and finishing them off was just around the corner. Obviously he didn't control their affairs (which is why 'some escaped') in the few hide-outs left for them to crouch in, awaiting the final blow. These affairs, however, would soon stop and were in any case nothing at all to him.)

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Firnantoonion]

She was a Noldo, and her relation to feanor was that his fathers second wife, Indis, was her grandmother

I remember, yes, and this also makes Gimli's request at her (the hair thing) much larger than he could ever know: she refused to give it to feanor...
(but that is not where this topic is about [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] )

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Remember that Melkor was still a Vala, and said to be the most powerful of all the Ainur.

I believe it was said at some point that Manwe was equal to him...

Swan song,
-Menelien

[Lord of Angmar]

I believe it was said at some point that Manwe was equal to him

It says in the Silmarillion that they were equal in the mind of Iluvatar, but it is also made clear that Melkor containers greater measurable strength than Manwe (that is, of course, until he lets much of his power pass into the physical world).

[Firnantoonion]

but it is also made clear that Melkor containers greater measurable strength than Manwe

yes, but it also says that manwe did better understand the mind and ideas of illuvatar, thus becoming (in one way or another) equal to melkor, who may have had greater powers, but didn't understand the plans of eru

[ August 17, 2003: Message edited by: Firnantoonion ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

(that is, of course, until he lets much of his power pass into the physical world).

In which case he has converted his power into an invested form, which still makes him power-rich.

But it is true. Although Manwe was more akin to Illuvatar, Melkor was in the beginning created with powers that surpassed all others. He did fairly well in his various (primordial, War of the Powers) wars with the Valar, if you think about it, for saying that they were fourteen Valar onto him alone (with Maiar on both sides, but more on the side of the Valar). His influence on the world was huge, and that was impacted through his power.

I do not doubt that if it had been Melkor and Manwe alone, two singular opposing powers, Melkor would have prevailed. As it was, the Valar were many and united and stood as a more solid, formidable foe.

Having said this, there is another interesting possibility. Manwe, sitting atop Taniquetil, had more than one 'revelation' and once a very extensive (but still unsatisfactory) vision of Men, that were granted to him through Illuvatar. Could Manwe in fact have increased in power while within Arda, through Illuvatar? It is doubtful that Melkor would have recieved these things from Eru, as his mind was closed to his maker.
On second thought, though, these communications between Illuvatar and Manwe probably were no more than communication. Manwe was, after all, the most insightful of the Ainur into Eru's mind; it is likely that he was simply using this skill.

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

But Ungoliant had grown great, and he less by the power that had gone out of him, and she emeshed him in a web of clinging thongs to strangle him.

Though Melkor was the greatest (arguably) of the Ainur and the most powerful of the Valar, Morgoth, however, was just a pitiful Dark Lord, striving for dominion. I have always imagined the two as different entities in one body.
Yes, yes, 'Morgoth' is just a name that Feanor gave Melkor, but there seems to be a huge difference between the two, if you look at it in a certain way.

-Aredhel

[Inderjit Sanghera]

OriginallyMelkor was the most powerful being in Ea (Apart from Eru)

Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature(cf'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. the greatest created power)(He was to make I devise I begin; Manwe (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

But, he began to squander his strength upon Arda, so that all of it, excpect for Valinor, for a while, was untainted. (Though of course, the Elves being born in 'tainted' M-E brought his taint with them, hence the death of Miriel which was a forerunner of things to come)

Melkor's power began to be dispersed as soon has he re-entered Arda with his host and overthrew the Lamps of the Valar. From that moment he had subjects who he had to hold to his will and he had to exert his power into their beings, thus wasting his 'natural strength'

He first realises this when the Vala take Utumno in order to aid the Elves, and he meets Manwe;

Manwe at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwe to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwe, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.

By the time of the WoTJ, he had fully incarnated himself, he could have been slain, he eventualy was executed by Namo, and his power had vastly shrunk, in comparison to his orignal powers.Myths Transformed; HoME 10

The Noldor, Sindar and Edain would neverbe overcome the Valar chose the perfect time in which to attack Morgoth, when there was little hope left. The Noldor, themselves filled their purpose to stop Morgoth from destroying Arda, as he may have done:

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied,on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.

]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Though Melkor was the greatest (arguably) of the Ainur and the most powerful of the Valar, Morgoth, however, was just a pitiful Dark Lord, striving for dominion. I have always imagined the two as different entities in one body.

Yes, Melkor is the Vala, Morgoth the tyrant of Angband. But pitiful? I don't think so. He was still just as powerful if you ask me, although it is true that as an actual entity his power was decreased. Even this wasn't so bad -- when squashed Fingolgin with his foot, this was said to be like the weight of a mountain (and I like to think it would grow again and compound with the force of his evil in time for the Dagor Dagorath) -- although certainly grown less, while not in mind, than Manwe.

No-one has yet said anything related to the main point of my posts so far -- that is, the subject of Morgoth's immense 'invested power'. Melkor himself has been diminished in power, but that is only because the immensity of this power has already been used to good effect. As you say, the very essence of the universe bears his evil stain unremovably, and forever. From without the 'Doors of Night', this enables him to still have some sort of influence in Arda; he is still a real threat.

And supposedly he will again muster his power, and challenge the Valar and the free world for the fourth, final and greatest time in the Dagor Dagorath, Last Battle. The power which he will come up against the West, supposedly, will then be so great that the world itself is shattered in a final Armageddon-style wave of destruction; Morgoth holds his power still, and it is perhaps even more deadly now that he has put it forth into the fibres of the essence of the world.

------

About the Noldor, though, Inderjit. I think you are incorrect in this statement:

The Noldor, Sindar and Edain would never be overcome. The Valar chose the perfect time in which to attack Morgoth, when there was little hope left.

The Valar only sent out a Valinorean army to attack Morgoth upon the plea of Earendil. The Noldor, Sindar and Edain would have been overcome, were it not for the intercession of the Valar; and for the Valar's part, the entire thing was far from some grand plan with which to finally bring down Morgoth, as you seem to suggest. Of course, the exile of the Noldor -- while evil, as Mandos and Ulmo discuss -- was 'better to have been' -- however, it was not Valar-incited or planned, and would have ended in sorrow for all if not for the turning of events.

Of course, this turning of events was meant to happen. The Valar did not plan for it to happen, though.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

The Valar only sent out a Valinorean army to attack Morgoth upon the plea of Earendil. The Noldor, Sindar and Edain would have been overcome, were it not for the intercession of the Valar; and for the Valar's part, the entire thing was far from some grand plan with which to finally bring down Morgoth, as you seem to suggest

The Valar acted at exactly the right-time, they knew of Earendil, and those of them who had a great enough understanding of the Music would know that with Morgoth’s fall would come the Dominion of Men.

When he that is called Earendil setteth forth upon the shores of Aman, ye shall remember my words. In that hour ye will not say that the Statute had born fruit only in death; and the griefs that shall come ye shall weigh in the balance, and they shall not seem to heavy compared with the rising of the light when Valinor growth dim

Statute of Finwe and Miriel

Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressëa ere it vanished into the West. Then he cried aloud: 'I will follow that light, alone if none will come with me, for the ship that I have been building is now almost ready.' But even as he said this he received in his heart a message, which he knew to come from the Valar, though in his mind it was remembered as a voice speaking in his own tongue. And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth, and it will be remembered in song for many ages after.' 'I obey,' Círdan answered, and then it seemed to him that he saw (in a vision maybe) a shape like a white boat, shining above him, that sailed west through the air, and as it dwindled in the distance it looked like a star of so great a brilliance that it cast a shadow of Círdan upon the strand where he stood.
As we now perceive, this was a foretelling of the ship# which after apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built, and in which at last he reached the shores of Valinor. From that night onwards Círdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.

Problem of Ros; HoME 12

It was evident that Earendil was a 'special' child, in
Laws and Customs of the Eldar (HoME 10) we learn that mother-names are held to be 'prophetic', and the Shibboleth of Feanor says of Idril's naming of Earendil;

More purely prophetic was the name Ardamírë 'Jewel of the World'; for Itarildë could not foresee in her waking mind the strange fate that brought at last the Silmaril into the possession of Eärendil, and enabled his ship to pass through all the shadows and perils by which Aman was at that time defended from any approach from Middle-earth.

'Hail Earendil of mariners most renowned, the looked for that cometh at unawares, the longed for that cometh beyond hope!'

Of the Voyage of Earendil; Published Silmarillion

Evidently the date of the coming of Earendil was not specified, but the Valar knew he would come, to the salvation of Men and Elves when they were at their lowest ebb.

As I have said the Valar timed their attack with the utmost precision, but of course it was Eru who caused all the things to be.

The last intervention with physical force by the Valar, ending in the breaking of Thangorodrim, may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision.
The intervention came before the annihilation of the Eldar and the Edain. Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind. He had become absorbed in 'kingship', and though a tyrant of ogre-size and monstrous power, this was a vast fall even from his former wickedness of hate, and his terrible nihilism. He had fallen to like being a tyrant-king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.

Myths Transformed; HoME 10

As Sam says (or thinks, as the case was);

For like a shaft , clear and cold ,the thought peirced him in the end that the shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and beauty forever beyond it's reach

The Land of Shadow; LoTR

And Gandalf;

But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should persish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or can bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I am also a a Steward. Did you not know?

Minas Trirth; LoTR

So the shadow would never, ever overcome, even if there is little hope left (as there often was) and of course when Gandalf was speaking of him being a steward, he was being a steward of the Valar and therefore representing their thoughts.

With the final defeat of the Elves and Edain where would hope after arise? M-E and maybe all Arda would be crushed.

On Melkors dispersion of powers within Arda itself, we hear much about this in
Myths TransformedArda would forever be tainted with his shadow, as Namo says;

Mandos said: 'Nonetheless they are descendants of Men, who rejected the One himself. That is an evil seed that may grow again. For even if we under Eru have the power to return to Middle-earth and cast out Morgoth from the Kingdom of Arda, we cannot destroy all the evil that he has sown, nor seek out all his servants - unless we ravaged the whole of the Kingdom and made an end of all life therein; and that we may not do.'

Problem or Ros; HoME 12

Melkor's taint would always live on in Arda and never cease to exist whilst Arda lasts.

On the Dagorath, or to be more precise Melkor coming back and what he was doing when he was cast into Ea we hear:

With the final defeat of the Elves and Edain where would hope after arise? M-E and maybe all Arda would be crushed. The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness. It did not repent, or turn finally way from its obsession, but retained still relics of wisdom, so that it could still seek its object indirectly, and not merely blindly. It would rest, seek to heal itself, distract itself by other thoughts and desires and devices - but all simply to recover enough strength to return to the attack on the Valar, and to its old obsession. As it grew again it would become, as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.

Myths Transformed

That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.
In any case, in seeking to absorb or rather to infiltrate himself throughout 'matter', what was then left of him was no longer powerful enough to reclothe itself. (It would now remain fixed in the desire to do so: there was no 'repentance' or possibility of it: Melkor had abandoned for ever all 'spiritual' ambitions, and existed almost solely as a desire to possess and dominate matter, and Arda in particular.) At least it could not yet reclothe itself. We need not suppose that Manwe was deluded into supposing that this had been a war to end war

Myths Transformed

On the actual Dagor Dagoraththe 'Last Battle' we have very few descriptions. There is one in The History of Eriol or Elfwine(BoLT 2) and in the Sketch of the Mythology (HoME 4) and also in the Latter Quenta Silmarillion()HoME 5) in which Namo supposedly, prophecises the events or some of the events that will take place in the Dagor Dagorath. But there is a flaw in this. One in the we learn the 'Valaquenta' that Namo never revealed what would happen in the end of days and in Myths Transformedwe learn that the Silmarillion is in fact of Numenorean origin. The truth is we will know little about the Dagorath because we and the peoples of M-E know so little about it We hear of the Elvish theory that Arda's end will come through the evil nature of Men but the good nature will redeem it. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth) (Like a bigger case of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, maybe.)

We only ever get snatches of info. on the end of Arda, which was inevitable. Arda was not finite. We get a refernce to the 'dark lord' taking over the world in the Barrow-Wights song, who this 'dark lord' was we don't know, Sauron claimed he was indeed Morgoth returned in the T.A, and I doubt whether many of his servants (As the wight was) would have not belived this.

When he found how greatly his knowledge was admired by all other rational creatures and how easy it was to influence them, his pride became boundless. By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

Letter #183; Letters of Tolkien

We also hear that Sauron was 'just a emmisary'of things to come and in Aragorn's cornonation speech,in Quenya, he refers to the worlds end 'Ambat-metta' but this was a echo of Elendil's words upon entering M-E.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Very nice post, Inderjit. I agree with it totally. Of course, through the visions of the Music and through Illuvatar, the Valar knew that the Morgoth would eventually be defeated in Beleriand. Mandos's prophecy seems to speak about it with quite a degree of accuracy.

I probably didn't take the wording of your former post the way it was intended. At any rate, that -- while pretty light really, without all the quotes =] -- was an enjoyable read, and I thankyou for posting it.

[ August 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Galadriel55]

What I don't understand is how Morgoth could endure the Silmarili. He's the Dark Lord, and he has light shining out of his crown. That doesn't make any sense to me.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What I don't understand is how Morgoth could endure the Silmarili. He's the Dark Lord, and he has light shining out of his crown. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Never mind - I just found the answer to my own question. Morgoth wanted to rule and control everything, and if that was impossible, he destroyed it. He was able to gain possession of the Silmarili, and I suppose that he was content with that.
It would mean (to him) that he rules not only darkness, but also light.