Dol Guldur

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But, Alfirin, he was the King of Angmar in the Third Age– long after becoming a wraith.

True, but I still feel that The lord was proably a king before taking the Ring, Sauron is title coscios enough that he wouldn't put a commoner in chrage over royalty and we KNOW Khamul was a king while alive.



But all Ringwraiths are "loyal"– in fact they are completely subject to Sauron's will. There's no "most loyal". I'd think he'd give command to whoever happened to be the best wraith for the job.

by "most loyal" I meant most loyal while they lived and had free will. But I see your point as well

Also what about Herumor and Fuinur the two addtional Numernorean who sauron gave "other powers" so that they could become kings amoung the Haradrim. It seems to me that the reason they were not given rings (after all having a Wraith kings amoung the Haradrim migh have been useful to Sauron paricularly if one ruled near Harad and one Far Harad in the same manner as Angmar.) was simply becuse Sauron had no more rings to give

[zxcvbn]

The concept art of Dol Guldur posted earlier just reeked of 'generic spiky black walled Mordor fortress'. Why should all of Sauron's strongholds have identical, generic architecture? In my opinion, Dol Guldur, just like Minas Morgul, should have an appearance distinct from Barad-dur and the Black Gates. Something like a tall 'Sorcerer's Tower'(from where the Necromancer could survey his surroundings) at the centre of Amon Lanc, surrounded by a layer of walls and many entrances into the underground dungeons. This, in turn, would be surrounded by a 'Dark forest'(corrupted by Sauron's power, filled with strange beasts and Black Huorns).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

True, but I still feel that The lord was proably a king before taking the Ring, Sauron is title coscios enough that he wouldn't put a commoner in chrage over royalty and we KNOW Khamul was a king while alive.

What's your source for that, Alfirin? I can't find anything about it in UT.

Btw– you need to fix up your tags– you've got that comment inside a quote from me.

[Sir Kohran]

This discussion seems to be going a bit off-topic...

Anyway, I always imagined Dol Guldur being both on the surface and underground - a sort of basic fortress structure on the top, and then a much bigger and more complex set of prisons and other foul places beneath the surface. It would sort of get more evil the further down you went.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

What's your source for that, Alfirin? I can't find anything about it in UT.

Btw– you need to fix up your tags– you've got that comment inside a quote from me.

I was using my copy of The A-Z of tolkein. But based on you comments I'm putting it away as this is the second time that something it has said has lead me down the absolutely wrong road. my apologies for the tag in tag too I'n still not very good at posting and assumed it would split the quote when I posted between

[William Cloud Hicklin]

2251 - Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgul or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

You know, the events in this annal might not be unrelated. Could Numenorean Nazgul in fact have been acting as Sauronian agants in Numenor, leading to the said division?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ghazi

[Witch-King was] Numenorean? Show me.

Three of the nazgul were Numenorean Lords.
Even Sauron, when he had to choose a man for a high position, preferred Numenoreans (Mouth of Sauron)

The Witch-King was the tallest of the Nine - and Numenoreans, as we know, are normally very tall, taller than non-Numenoreans. Also in Tolkien's world (funny as it sounds) the taller, the nobler.

Also look how differently the nazgul speak Westron, which is derived from Numenorean Adunaic.
Khamul the Easterling spoke Westron haltingly, with foreign accent (the Gaffer:"It was one of the Big Folk from foreign parts. He spoke funny."). Khamul used simple sentences: “I come from yonder,” “Have you seen Baggins?” “Baggins has left,” “He is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold.”

Now compare it to the Witch-Kings grand style: "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."
Here we have a native Adunaic-speaker.

In the LOTR drafts published in HOME 6-8, all the wizards were Men - of a "noble profession", but the Wizard-King was specifically said to be a Man from Numenor:

"Denetor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the Wizard King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order...from Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight'...""The War of the Ring" p.326.

But we don't really need assumptions anymore. There is new evidence published in Tolkien Reader's Companion p.20.

The name and origin of the Witch-king is not recorded, but he was probably (like the Lieutenant of Barad-dur) of Numenorean descent.
- Tolkien's manuscript of "Nomenclature"

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

You know, the events in this annal might not be unrelated. Could Numenorean Nazgul in fact have been acting as Sauronian agants in Numenor, leading to the said division?

That's what Alcuin's theory is about http://www.zarkanya.net/Tolkien/origins_of_Nazgul.htm
Other theories are discussed here: http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/u...c;f=1;t=002315

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Also look how differently the nazgul speak Westron, which is derived from Numenorean Adunaic.
Khamul the Easterling spoke Westron haltingly, with foreign accent (the Gaffer:"It was one of the Big Folk from foreign parts. He spoke funny."). Khamul used simple sentences: “I come from yonder,” “Have you seen Baggins?” “Baggins has left,” “He is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold.”

Yes, he does sound rather as if he's just been consulting the Lonely Middle-earth Westron Phrasebook, doesn't he?

[Gordis]

I could have sworn I have posted in this thread a few days ago - and my post shows as the last one. But why can't I see it?

Edit: now when I have posted, my post and Nerwen's post have magically reappeared. - A bug?

Nerwen: Yes, he does sound rather as if he's just been consulting the Lonely Middle-earth Westron Phrasebook

Wery probably such-like existed in Mordor libraries...