Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Sauron the White]

A question for the experts here. I have seen mention in several places that in a letter JRRT expressed a desire that others would take up his mythology of Middle Earth and add to it in writings and other artistic expressions.

Is this true? And if so where can I find the actual JRTT words on this?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

A question for the experts here. I have seen mention in several places that in a letter JRRT expressed a desire that others would take up his mythology of Middle Earth and add to it in writings and other artistic expressions.

Is this true? And if so where can I find the actual JRTT words on this?

Its from a letter to Milton Waldman of Collins

"But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story....I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.

Note - he specifies 'paint, music, & drama' - not new tales.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by davem

Note - he specifies 'paint, music, & drama' - not new tales.

Now that's a very interesting point, davem! We have talked about those lines from the Waldman letter often enough, taking them as a justification for fan fiction and RPGs, but I can't recall ever having looked that closely at the exact words.

According to that point of view, he should have approved of the movies - after all, they are 'paint', as in visuals (admittedly one of the movies' best assets); 'music' - and we all agree that Shore's score was brilliant; and 'drama', or a dramatization at least, whether we like the changes or not.

The musical also includes those elements, so could be considered a legitimate 'Leaf' on Tolkien's Tree.

The many excellent artists who have illustrated Middle-earth would be unquestionable contributions - not only the pros like Howe, Lee, and Nasmith (I'm not quite sure about the Hildebrandt brothers though! ), but the ones whose paintings are not (yet) as well-known, like Anke Eissmann.

Music - We know that JRRT enjoyed Swann's music to a number of his poems. I assume that more modern ones could be considered variations in taste, though I have my doubts about the metal scene which used Tolkienish ideas as a basis for some pieces.

But what about the high quality fan fiction/RPGs that fill the empty spaces in Tolkien's spirit? Non-canonical stories could be rejected, but would the good ones still be valid?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

But what about the high quality fan fiction/RPGs that fill the empty spaces in Tolkien's spirit? Non-canonical stories could be rejected, but would the good ones still be valid?

He was violently opposed. When one reader wrote him with an outline of a proposed fanfic 'sequel' to Lord of the Rings, he called him a "young ***" and referred the matter to Allen & Unwin's lawyers. Tolkien very clearly felt that he was the only qualified 'historian' of Middle-earth.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Music - We know that JRRT enjoyed Swann's music to a number of his poems. I assume that more modern ones could be considered variations in taste, though I have my doubts about the metal scene which used Tolkienish ideas as a basis for some pieces.

I guess the Prof wouldn't be much happy with the black-metal-type bands, although, who knows, he might be content and say: "See? That's what I meant Melkor played at the Music." But seriously, I think even the metal bands, if they hold to the canon - like Blind Guardian, for example - should be ok with that. I don't see any reason why they shouldn't. However, the bands who only include the words "Sauron, Saurooon, Mordor, Mordooor" in one of their songs without any logical connection to the rest of it, should be hardly even thought of.

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

But what about the high quality fan fiction/RPGs that fill the empty spaces in Tolkien's spirit? Non-canonical stories could be rejected, but would the good ones still be valid?

Good ones? Surely. For example your "Time", without questions

But all in all, the trouble is that peoples' opinions are different from person to person, look even how some people regard the Hobbit, and if there were suddenly fifty thousand fan fictions, which some would glorify and some would burn. Example: I like Star Wars films, but I "don't believe" or how should I call that, the expanded universe the books and video games created. For me, having another Sith Lord or even greater threat after the death of the Emperor is completely devalving the main plot. But there are many many people who read it and are all happy when a book describing what happened between the scene 4 and 5 in Episode II appears.

The main point is, when you have one creator, the work is consistent. With several more people, you have the "broken light", and one likes green, one likes yellow and one likes blue. It may be good or may not. But if all of it were cannonized, I would for example like the "green", but not "yellow", and I'd find hard to accept that in my Middle-Earth there actually are Entwives living in the Shire, just because Arry Otter wrote a fanfic on it.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Yes, Davem is right. Tolkien approved of artistic and musical adaptations and certain plays, but never included stories in print.

On the other hand, I read something interesting a few weeks ago. I believe it was in one of the early society publications (not the main Tolkien society). (Those early fan publications include some interviews with JRRT, articles by certain members of the Tolkien family, etc....tidbits of information not available anywhere else.) One of the other members of Tolkien's family actually did a fanfiction tale based on either Hobbit or LotR. Possibly a teenage son, but don't hold me to that identity. Of course, it wasn't called "fanfiction". Tolkien incidentally said he was delighted with it.

But the real question to me is this. If the Legendarium constitutes a myth rather than mere contemporary novels/poems, then won't we reach a point perhaps years down the road where others try their hand with it? Even now, CT's work with Hurin suggests this. When is an editor more than an editor....perhaps, when he makes a decision to publish a stand-alone story where none existed before, even if leaning heavily on the author's own words.

For the Legendarium to be "successful" on Tolkien's own terms of creating a myth, then don't others have to read it and be inspired to retell it in their own way. Sometime in the misty past, individuals came up with the ideas to form the germ of the Arthurian tales, but those tales have now been told and retold in a hundred different ways. The same holds true for the Illiad and Odyssey. In an age of printed books and computers, we are unlikely to "forget" the orginal creation by Tolkien. Still, five hundred years from now, will we be better off with only the original tales frozen in ice or with a continuing chain of creativity? There will be drek, just as exists for the Arthurian legends but won't the best ultimately come to the surface?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Estelyn

But what about the high quality fan fiction/RPGs that fill the empty spaces in Tolkien's spirit? Non-canonical stories could be rejected, but would the good ones still be valid?

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

He was violently opposed. When one reader wrote him with an outline of a proposed fanfic 'sequel' to Lord of the Rings, he called him a "young ***" and referred the matter to Allen & Unwin's lawyers. Tolkien very clearly felt that he was the only qualified 'historian' of Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Child

One of the other members of Tolkien's family actually did a fanfiction tale based on either Hobbit or LotR. Possibly a teenage son, but don't hold me to that identity. Of course, it wasn't called "fanfiction". Tolkien incidentally said he was delighted with it.

I think I would (rather unqualifiedly) say that the difference between the two is the same difference that lies between 'sub-creation' and 'creation'. The one tries explore the possibilities within the given limitations, while the other tries to impose new things upon the whole. Of course J.R.R. Tolkien was opposed to the latter, especially when it concerned his own work. What he would have thought of works with the intention of sub-creation, and of high quality, is debatable I guess.

Originally Posted by davem

Note - he specifies 'paint, music, & drama' - not new tales.

But he also doesn't mention sculpture. Does that mean he was opposed to it? I would doubt that.

Originally Posted by the letter quoted by davem

The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.

I think the important matter here is not the specification of paint, music and drama, but the question what this "scope" includes and what it excludes.


(sorry for excessive quoting)

Though Tolkien did not want others to "continue" his work or write new stories based on his work, I find it interesting that as in LOTR, Bilbo began writing the Red Book, then he gave it to Frodo to continue, and Frodo gave it Sam and so on... that it reflected how Tollien himself began writing the mythology for ME and he passed it on to Christopher to continue. So who does it go to next? Is it not within us all to continue on in our own way? We won't all have the same story to tell, but does that mean that we should't tell it? That's just my thought on the subject.