About Saruman and the Shire

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Hi there, I just have one question which I'd like to get answered. I don't seem to figure the answer out by myself, so I'd be happy if you offer any assistence The topic is: When actually did Saruman start to care for the Shire? And, (continuingly) when did he start to smoke?

The thing is (to what I have come so far, up to now), according to Appendix B in LotR, Saruman started to watch the Shire regularly from 2953 TA on (the last White Council meeting). He appointed spies there and so on. This corresponds with the second text in Unfinished Tales (About Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire) where it is said that he started to visit (or appoint others to visit) the Shire "before the shadow of uncertainity fell on that land and it was scarcely guarded..." (which would start around 3000, when the Shire was more guarded by the Rangers).
But nowhere it's said he couldn't have started to care of the Shire earlier in 2953, let's say, for example once or twice visited it in secret (as he did later, before he appointed spies) - perhaps to check out "what does that Gandalf see on that no-mans-land?" or to buy some of the Ol'Tobby In the text about Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire (UT) there is that story of Saruman seeing Gandalf smoke - and talking about it - on the 2851 White Council meeting. But in Appendix B there is no word (and it seems very unlikely) that Saruman started to act in the Shire right after. But...

...the thing is, the first text from "About Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire" seems (at least to me) not to be narrative, but explaining: there is not distinct chronology in the text. But there are parts which confuse me:

"...when Saruman noticed Gandalf's love for the pipe weed (...) he tried it himself and soon he started to use it..." (sorry I'm translating back to English, I don't have the original) It seems to me, that Saruman first tested it some shord period after he saw Gandalf - which would be in 2850, right? (or short after) What do you think then? Did it take until 100 years later that he started to operate in the Shire, or perhaps until then he visited the Shire by himself once or twice, and obtained something to smoke? But if he did, wouldn't he smoke it regularly, and so start to require regular supplies? (according to UT: "...for this, the Shire continued to be important for him..." Again, sorry for the quotations, they are attempts to translate back to English since I don't have them in original, so maybe I even misinterpretated something because of translation )

But anyway, anyone any opinions about that? Any suggestions welcome.

Firstly, Saruman, I believe, had fallen into darkness (though not openly), far before Gandalf discovered that he had. FAR before it. The Shire, defended by the Rangers (and, I may add, a VERY select cadre of them), was otherwise defenceless. Now, when Gandalf mentioned that he had found the Ring in the possession of a Hobbit (Though Saruman had been spying before then), it will have largely increased Saruman's interest, not in the Shire, but in it's inhabitants. Ergo, it is no small wonder that he found them to be hardy folk. Subsequently, as had been mentioned in Hobbiton by Gandalf to Frodo, Saruman would have realised the prospect of forcing the Hobbits into slave labour. And, surprise surprise, that is what he did (more or less), after being ousted from power by Gandalf and the Fellowship (with the invaluable help of the Rohirrim). So there you go, a rather plausible reason for Saruman's interest in the Shire, cheap slave labour.

[Raynor]

Firstly, Saruman, I believe, had fallen into darkness (though not openly), far before Gandalf discovered that he had. FAR before it.

In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring:

2851
The White Council meets. Gandalf urges an attack on Dol Guldur. Saruman overrules him. [It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and he hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time.] Saruman begins to search near the Gladden Fields.

In the last version given in Unfinished Tales, apparently rejected, Gandalf already suspected at that council that Saruman was becoming corrupt, hence the puffing of ring smokes in a sign of insolence, which gave all sorts of funny ideas to the paranoid Saruman concerning the hobbits and the ring.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring:
In the last version given in Unfinished Tales, apparently rejected, Gandalf already suspected at that council that Saruman was becoming corrupt, hence the puffing of ring smokes in a sign of insolence, which gave all sorts of funny ideas to the paranoid Saruman concerning the hobbits and the ring.

Yeah, that's right. The thing is, if he did, did Saruman start to care about the Shire so much that he started to visit the Shire (or somehow interact with it, be it spying or whatever) just after that event (the 2851 Council) or was he just thinking about it and really started to investigate about the Shire in 2953?

[Raynor]

If we are to believe the Tale of years:

2953

Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf [Saruman] sets spies to watch all his movements; and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing.

Apparently, 2953 is the year when his interest in the Shire began.

In the Tale of years, 2851 is the year in which Saruman began desiring the possesion of the ring

Indeed, though it is not confirmed as the year in which he became corrupt, as Saruman had studied ring-lore for quite a long time.

[Boromir88]

I don't think it's ever really conclusive when Saruman had started heading down the wrong path, but I think we can get a generalized idea of the time frame.

We know that right from the start Saruman (Curumo) was jealous of Gandalf (Olorin):

But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.~Unfinished Tales; The Istari

And when Gandalf recieved one of the Elven Rings, Saruman found out and grew even more jealous:

'And the Grey Messenger took the ring , and kept it secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore the Gret,which afterwards became manifest.'~ibid

I don't think Saruman was evil at this point, but I think we can definitely see the beginning of his turn to evil right from the beginning with his jealousy towards Gandalf and the Ring he recieved from Cirdan.

'In this way Saruman began to behave as a lord of Men; for at first he held Isengard as a lieutenant of the Steward and warden of the tower. But Frealaf was as glad as Beren to have this so, and to know that Isengard was in the hands of a strong friend. A friend he long seemed, and maybe in the beginning he was in truth.'~Appendix A: The House of Eorl

During Frealaf's reign when Saruman is given Orthanc (T.A. 2759), Saruman still appears to be a good friend to everyone. He at first wtaches over it as a 'lieutenant' to the Steward Beren...then it appears Saruman starts having a change of plans. As Raynor shows in the T.A. 2851, Saruman had started thinking about using the Ring for himself.

So, roughly during that 100 year period when he first is given Orthanc, to the meeting with the White Council I think we can say is when Saruman officially became corrupted. However, I think the seeds of corruption were sewn much earlier starting with Saruman's jealousy of Gandalf.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Of course, you don't become evil overnight when falling from the post like Saruman had. I think we can see - as you have very nicely displayed here, Boromir - the "chart" of his fall, generally, in the points of a person (or spirit) a little bit proud of himself (in Valinor) => jealous on Gandalf (also in Valinor, that famous "not-as-the-third" thing; but enhanced after the arrival by knowing about the Ring Gandalf recieved) => growing in being proud (when seeing those stupid Middleeartheans, and also after recieving the Keys to Orthanc) => becoming lusty for power (after settling down at Isengard) => growing more selfish and more centered and closed at himself (like Treebeard said, also coming from how he lived at one place - he changed caring about outside world and the life in the world around him for caring only for his own agenda, literally he changed "change for cold comfort" ) => falling to the lure of power to that point that he started to lust for the One Ring itself (around 2851) => definitely changing his heart and secretly plotting AGAINST his former allies (! to this moment Saruman might be selfish or whatever, he might even been thinking wrong about Gandalf&co, but he didn't DO anything against them - now we have here lying to the Council, fortifying Isengard - 2953, spying Gandalf and putting down spies in the Shire) => hooking up with Sauron (c. 3000 - after using the Palantír of Orthanc). The rest we all know, I suppose.

But back to the original question - in the light of this what we stated above, when do you think, that Saruman actually started to SMOKE?

[Alcuin]

I think that before the White Council meeting in III 2851, Saruman may already have begun to smoke. I cannot prove that, but it is a mark of smokers temporarily deprived of tobacco that they become extremely irritable when another nearby is using it freely (you may take that as fact from one fond of tobacco), and I think this explains Saruman’s tremendous irritation with Gandalf, who was “smoking prodigiously” (probably because he was irritated with Saruman, and told Frodo and his friends (Unfinished Tales, “Quest for Erebor”) in Minas Tirith after the War of the Ring,

‘I was very troubled at that time … for Saruman was hindering all my plans.’

Now, that is a little out of the timeline, since Gandalf met Thorin at Bree in III 2941, ninety years later, but I think he was already thoroughly frustrated with Saruman’s intransigence in acting against Sauron in III 2851, which he displayed in the affair of grabbing at the smoke-rings, whatever other subconscious motivations may have driven him to do that.

In the essay “The Istari” (op. cit.), there is a passage that says that

Saruman had long taken an interest in the Shire – because Gandalf did, and be was suspicious of him; and because (again in secret imitation of Gandalf) he had taken to the ‘Halflings’ leaf,’ and needed supplies, but in pride (having once scoffed at Gandalf’s use of the weed) kept this as secret as he could. Latterly other motives were added. He liked to extend his power, especially into Gandalf’s province, and he found that the money he could provide for the purchase of ‘leaf’ was giving him power, and was corrupting some of the Hobbits... [footnote 17 here remarks on Farmer Cotton’s observations concerning Pimple’s purchases of leaf-plantations] … He … began to collect detailed information about the Shire… When Gandalf had refused to treat with him Saruman redoubled his efforts. The Rangers were suspicious, but ... Saruman was still recognized as an ally.

Now that passage clearly refers to the period immediately before Frodo’s departure, and is followed without interruption by a description of the Nazgûl capturing and suborning Saruman’s spy, the “squint-eyed Southerner” the hobbits saw in The Prancing Pony, placing this particular period in the summer of III 3118; however, Saruman’s influence was already well-established by then.

A little further in this essay is a section labeled “(iii) Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire”, in which it is said that

Seeing then that Gandalf thought the Shire worth visiting, Saruman himself visited it, but disguised and in utmost secrecy...

Yet in truth Saruman’s spying and great secrecy had not in the beginning any evil purpose, but was no more than a folly born of pride. ... observing Gandalf’s love of the herb that he called ‘pipeweed’ ..., Saruman had affected to scoff at it, but in private he made trial of it, and soon began to use it; ... it came to [Saruman’s] knowledge that he had not been all unobserved by the keen-eyed Halflings, and some ... had mistaken him for Gandalf.

The words “Saruman had affected to scoff at it, but in private he made trial of it” would seem to indicate that Saruman’s initial use of pipeweed followed the White Council meeting of III 2851: the passage describing Gandalf’s grabbing the smoke-rings is preceded with the words

It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the ‘Halflings’ leaf’ was first spoken of…

which might indicate that it was only after event this that Saruman began his diversions. I believe Saruman must already have begun his experimentation with tobacco, in part because of his exceptionally harsh reaction to Gandalf, the kind a deprived smoker would show.

Gandalf’s especial interest in the Shire began after the Long Winter of III 2758, in which many of the hobbits died, and Gandalf came to their aid. In “Quest for Erebor”, he said he was impressed by

their courage, and their pity one for another. It was by their pity as much as by their tough uncomplaining courage that they survived.

The following year, III 2759, was when Saruman took up residence in Orthanc with the permission of Beren, Ruling Steward of Gondor. Saruman’s purposes even then were no longer pure: he was motivated by his “study of the records of Gondor [and his] interest [in] the palantíri and the possible uses of those that survived” (Unfinished Tales, “The Palantíri”), presumably to search for the One Ring.

Since we do not know when Gandalf began to smoke, it is difficult to determine when Saruman began. Tobold “Old Toby” Hornblower was credited with being the first hobbit to smoke: that would have been around SR 1070 (III 2670 - RotK, “Appendix B” ): Gandalf could not reasonably have begun before then. Saruman’s interest in pipeweed is unlikley to predate 2759; it certainly began soon after the White Council meeting of 2851, if not before (I still think his reaction to Gandalf’s smoking was extremely harsh: he sounds like modern, real-world anti-smoking zealots, often former smokers themselves); and before the War of the Ring in III 3118, his habit and the influence it gave him in the Shire was well-established, possibly even when the Sackville-Bagginses had Bilbo declared dead in 2942 so that they could take possession of Bag End.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Thanks for your dedicated words, Alcuin, your arguments are as precise and as clean as a blade in the morning

Your speculation about that Saruman started to smoke even BEFORE 2851 is interesting. Myself, I never thought of it (not being smoker at all). What concerns me is, how Saruman gained access to the weed, since he didn't have yet established his agents in the Shire. According to Appendix B in LotR:

2953 - Last meeting of the White Council. They debate the Rings. Saruman feigns that he has discovered that the One Ring has passed down Anduin to the Sea. Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being afraid and jealous of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the South-farthing.

According to this, Saruman now BEGINS to keep agents in the Shire (and Bree). However, as you said before, in UT we read that Saruman visited the Shire by himself before he recognized that the halflings noticed him and he stopped it. I'd guess from then on he might start to use the agents instead of himself.

If we take this as possible, then we can take for granted that Saruman visited the Shire - and thus, first smoked - before 2953 (be it 100 years before 2953, or one year before it). Of course, that's no surprise. The question is, how long is that? He "needed supplies": and we have some of 100 years between 2851(when he first spoke about the leaf with Gandalf, and in contrary to Alcuin, I think that here is the point when Saruman even started to think about smoking, but I might be as well mistaken). Anyway: I'm not a smoker, but I don't think that Saruman would have stayed without a smoke, once he started to smoke regularly, for a period of time equaling years or even centuries If he started to smoke, let's say, in 2855, this would mean almost hundred years before he set agents in the South Farthing. This would either mean that Saruman, for example, came to the Shire every 10 years and very inconspicously bought (or ordered) a few tons of the leaf, or that he really started to smoke not too long before 2953 (from when on he had still supply).