Rohirric and Elvish Verse

[Aiwendil]

Re-reading "Three Elvish Verse Modes", an excellent essay by Patrick Wynne and Carl Hostetter, I was recently struck by something a bit peculiar. (Apologies in advance for a somewhat pedantic question).

One of the verse modes of the title is "Minlamad thent / estent"; the name derives from the text "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" in HoMe XI. There Tolkien states that the Narn of Turin was composed in Minlamad thent/estent, and notes also that this form of verse was very similar to that with which Aelfwine was familiar. Wynne and Hostetter infer from this, correctly I think, that Minlamad thent/estent was intended to closely resemble Old English alliterative verse. This is indeed supported by the original (1920s) lay of the Children of Hurin, which was indeed written in alliterative verse. The statement from "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" can thus be seen as an indication that Tolkien had not changed his mind on this subject in the intervening years ("Aelfwine and Dirhaval" dates from the 1950s).

What I find interesting is that Tolkien also used alliterative verse in another capacity: as the form employed by the Rohirrim in LotR. This seems natural enough in itself, since the Rohirrim bear some obvious similarities with the Anglo-Saxons, and Tolkien "translated" their language into Old English. But it got me wondering: how is it that alliterative verse is to be associated both with the Elves and with the Rohirrim? Is it possible that Minlamad thent/estent was known to the early Eotheod and had an influence on their poetic development? And if not, what are we to make of the fact that Tolkien chose to represent two distinct verse modes with alliterative verse? Are we to infer a similarity between the original Rohirric and Elvish verse? If so, what kind? If not, then why did Tolkien choose to represent them the same way?

[HerenIstarion]

It seems explainable on the following ground:

Faramir to Sam and Frodo:

Indeed it is said by our lore-masters that they [Rohirrim] have from of old this affinity with us that they are come from those same Three Houses of Men as were the Númenoreans in their beginning not from Hador the Goldenhaired, the Elf-friend, maybe, yet from such of his sons and people as went not over Sea into the West, refusing the call.

Thus, as the poetry of Three Houses must have been largely based on what they've learnt in Beleriand from elves, similarity is natural.

[davem]

It is strange that Tolkien would use the same verse forms for the two cultures. Clearly the Elvish culture was developed first - probably because they were originally his ideal race, & alliterative verse was an especial love of his. Of course, when the Rohirric culture appeared he wanted to create an idealised 'anglo-saxon' people for M-e, so they would have to use alliterative verse, as the real anglo-saxons used that verse form.

I suppose what we have is, first, a race of beings based on the norse Alfar, so their 'culture' would reflect what was known of norse/a-s society (in an idealised form). Were they intended as the inspiration for a-s society, for its culture as well as its legends?

I'm fumbling here, but it seems almost as if we could see the Elves as the 'archetypal' anglo-saxons, the spiritual template for the a-s culture - the Valar were the archetypes from which the norse gods of legends took their forms & nature,Elvish verse forms the archetypes from which later Rohirric alliterative verse forms evolved.

Then Rohan appears as that ideal made flesh. The Numenorian culture moves towards the classical, away from that ideal (for all its 'height'). We can see in the situation in Rohan, as a representation of a-s england during the dark ages. The Elves in the Golden Wood are symbolic of the pagan world which is being left behind, Gondor symbolises the world of Christianity coming in, but the links with the past remain, in legends, tales, & in the poetry of the Elves which has passed to the Rohirrim from the Elves.

Geographically, Gondor is in the place of Rome, Rohan of a-s England. I suppose we can think of the Rohirrim as having a link with the Sindar, the Gondorians, through Numenor, with the High Elves of the West. Minlamad thent/estent is sindarin, (I think) & if the name of the verse form is sindarin, does that mean the verse form itself was Sindarin originally? I suppose we could be dealing with a passing on of a sindarin verse form from the Elves that never passed into the West to men who never went into the West (ie to Numenor). I don't know how much thought Tolken put into what happened in M-e during the Second Age, in terms of the relations between the Sindar, Men & Dwarves, but its possible that there was a great deal of cultural interaction - particularly between Men who remained in Middle earth & the Sindar. How 'advanced' a culture was there?

Too much speculation here, & probably a lot of it is wrong - sorry, can't face wading through all the books at the moment, but if I'm anywhere close to being right it may be that the Sindar passed on large parts of their culture to Men, & that the peoples who eventuallly settled in Rohan were more culturally Elvish than we might think.

[Aiwendil]

HerenIstarion:

Somehow I had it in my mind that the Eotheod were the kin of the Marachians who never entered Beleriand, but Faramir's quote certainly seems to make them descendants of the people of Hador who came back east after refusing the summons to Numenor. But this is the only time such a thing is suggested, as far as I can recall. I will search HoMe for more on the origin of the Eotheod.

In any case, it still seems a bit surprising that the Rohirrim would preserve something so similar to "minlamad thent/estent" through the intervening six thousand years.

Davem:

Interesting thoughts. You may be right that:

the peoples who eventuallly settled in Rohan were more culturally Elvish than we might think.

Still, a close affinity between the Rohirrim and the Elves seems strange, at least to me. In the context of LotR, at the least, the Rohirrim seem to represent all that is primitive, natural, and Mannish, in opposition to the "high" culture of the Elves. It is the Numenoreans that love knowledge and preserve the lore of the Noldor, and even speak Sindarin sometimes. They also have a kind of Elvish nostalgia that the Rohirrim lack. I do take your point though about seeing something like an Anglo-Saxon ideal in the Elves. It would be interesting to know whether the Numenoreans employed anything like alliterative verse. The only alliterative poem I can think of at the moment that could likely be Gondorian is the somewhat curious Istari poem from UT. But that is scarce evidence indeed.

There does seem to be a movement away from the Anglo-Saxon and toward the Classical in Numenor - but I think there was similar move toward the Classical for the Eldar in Valinor, and even to some extent for the Sindar. Possibly, things are also confused by a trend away from the primitive through Tolkien's life.

[Kuruharan]

In any case, it still seems a bit surprising that the Rohirrim would preserve something so similar to "minlamad thent/estent" through the intervening six thousand years.

While I grant that six thousand years is certainly a long time for humanity to preserve a form, I still find it plausible, in the context of Middle earth, that a people so deeply rooted in oral tradition would have preserved it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil[/i

Still, a close affinity between the Rohirrim and the Elves seems strange, at least to me.

Well, there must have been some kind of 'affinity', as one of the Marshals of Rohan is called Elfhelm. This name alone would make me curious about a relationship. Of course, the Elf element in A-S names such as Alfred (Elf-wisdom) may have had something to do with Tolkien's choice of name here.

[Aiwendil]

Davem wrote:

Of course, the Elf element in A-S names such as Alfred (Elf-wisdom) may have had something to do with Tolkien's choice of name here.

Yes, but we know that the A-S "alf"/"aelf" was important to Tolkien (cf. Aelfwine), so it's likely that "Elfhelm" is significant. Perhaps you're right, then. Still, the Rohirrim have fewer obvious Elvish cultural connections than do the Numenoreans.

Another interesting aspect of the question is the matter of spoken vs. sung verse. In their essay, Wynne and Hostetter note that Tolkien wrote of the Sindarin word narn that it referred to a tale in verse meant to be spoken rather than sung; from this they conclude that "minlamad thent/estent" was spoken. Then they embark upon a thorough analysis of whether Tolkien's views on whether real Anglo-Saxon alliterative verse had been spoken or sung; they offer no firm conclusion but appear to suggest that he probably thought it was spoken. But I wish they had considered the verses of the Rohirrim in LotR, for the two major Rohirric poems are both said to be "songs". I also think they may have jumped too quickly to the conclusion that minlamad thent/estent was not sung. It seems possible to me that, while a narn was spoken, there may have been other verses in minlamad thent/estent that were indeed sung.

I make these points not with the intention of criticizing the excellent essay, but primarily because I wonder whether the similarity between the Elvish and Rohirric verse forms suggests any similarity between Elvish and Rohirric music. Also I wonder whether the use of "song" in referring to the verse of the Rohirrim casts further doubt on Tolkien's beliefs about Anglo-Saxon verse being spoken.

[davem]

Well, its certainly easier to remember a song than a poem, so, perhaps humans would set poems to music even if their orignal form was spoken. Possibly the verse form was learnt from the Sindar, & the music added by men.

Having said that, & knowing how touchy Elves could be regarding 'tradition', I see no reason that the Elves would not choose to set some of their verses to music. For instance, while I can't see the Narn being sung, I could see 'Winter comes to Nargothrond' being, & that's in the alliterative metre.