Help a fellow Tolkien admirer by giving me your opinion

[Nimiriel]

Hi guys.
Why do you find the LotR to be a masterpiece? And Why do you think the fantasy genre is so popular today, especially among the teenagers?

If you have an opinion on these questions, or know where to find essays or other writings on the matter I would very much apreciate your help

[Beleg Cuthalion]

Well I’ll just say to start with that if there was no LOTR then there wouldn’t be really much ‘Fantasy’ writing at all.

Dungeons and Dragons for example, is a direct by product of what M-E did to fantasy genre, you can’t find anything like it before it came out. There are stories like Ivanhoe, King Arthur andRobin Hood and many others, but nothing like Tolkien’s Middle-Earth.

The real reason behind Middle-Earth popularity is that it’s not written as a ‘fiction story’, but that it was written as a history. The languages also play a big part in the books success there are not many books where you can find such comprehensiveness, every thing is planned out almost perfectly.

[Linnahiril Tinnufinwen]

Firstly, I would have to agree with Beleg on why Tolkien's work is so popular. It is truly amazing to think that Tolkien created his own mini-world, with lots and lots of history, maps, languages, etc. Had Tolkien lived longer, he probably would have "finshed" his work, and every single culture would have been complete in customs and languages. Any fantasy writer today who creates their own histories are no doubt inspired by Tolkien. I know that I am, as a writer.

Secondly, I believe that one of the reasons the fantasy genre is so popular is because it gives people, especially teenagers, a way to get away from their lives for awhile. It is so unlike anything in today's world, that it is almost refreshing. To live in a place where honor and chivalry, justified war, adventure, and almost always an easily distiguishable between good and evil, is very appealing to people.

[Mithalwen]

I am sure you will get more learned responses to this but my feeling is that LOTR is masterpiece but one so unusual that it defies categorisation - which may be why the literati get piqued by it's popularity. Why I say it is unusual is that whereas most writers have a story they want to tell and create a setting around it or place it in a setting they know, Tolkien created Middle Earth more or less as back story for his invented languages and the Lord of the Rings seems to have sprung almost from Middle Earth rather than directly from Tolkiens imagination.

The Hobbit was a catalyst - people and places from the Silmarillion (written long before - although published poshumously) appeared in the Hobbit but the LOTR is so much a product of the whole of Tolkien's creation of middle earth that just about all of the incidents referred to by character in the story were already written (a notable exception being the story of Queen Beruthiel and her cats). So when Faramir speaks of Numenor or Legolas speaks of the elves of Hollin, it is not Tolkien creating an illusion of history; they are speaking of their actual history which happens to be written down elsewhere.

Middle Earth has an "internal logic" and although it is a fantasy world it is a plausible fantasy world - not flawless and if you look around the downs you will find various debates and disputes about the degree to which people "buy in to " the fantasy varies but for me it does fulfil Tolkien's aim of being a created "mythology for England".

As for it's popularity, well I read Tolkien as an adolescent but I did not read any other fantasy at the time - unless you count the Hitchikers series. Although I found escaping from the real world a relief none of the other fantasy books I looked at appealed becasue they seemed poor imitations of Tolkien and lacking the internal coherence of Middle Earth. However in adulthood I have read some very good books which can be classed as fantasy. This in itself may be a reason for the popularity of the genre. JK Rowling spins an enthralling yarn, Philip Pullman's Northern Lights is one of the best books I have ever read of any genre although one of the darkest, and Tery Pratchett is always a joy.

They are all writers who, like Tolkien are genuinely enjoyed by both adults and adolescents ( and bless them all for providing genuine common ground between me and my teenage cousins when they were at their most uncommunicative ).

Their particular popularity with teen-agers may partly to do witht he fact that teenagers are not always well served by other genres. It is very easy for adults writing for adolsecents to seem patronising but books written for adults may have little interest. An adolescent may well have superior intelligence and literacy skills to the average adult but the stuff of the full adult world may have little appeal as subject matter. Shakespeare's words in "The Tempest" are very true : Miranda sees a "Brave new world" but her father counters with the put down "T'is new to thee". A fantasy world is new to everyone. This also levels the playing field for authors too perhaps. I have just read Eragon which Christopher Paolini wrote aged 16 and really enjoyed it despite my prejudice against books that seem to rip off Tolkien.

Escapism also has to be a factor. Adolescence is difficult and I don't think it is getting easier. In Britain, teenagers are under constant pressure from exams and while in some ways are much more sophisticated at an earlier age in others, they have less freedom. Some of the central characters in fantasy works are adolescent : Lyra, Will, Harry Potter, various in Pratchett. In LOTR you could see the hobbits - especially Pippin- as adolescent. They have come from a sheltered world and go out into a wider world where they have little or no experience. They have the raw materials of their intelligence and courage and profit from guidance in some areas and learn the hard way in others - and they return in triumph. Think of Gandalf's words about them growing high in the world and the Scouring of the Shire being the task they were trained for. You could say the story was in part a rite of passage - but then Tolkien claimed to hate allegory!!

NB It took so long for me to write this that this ended up being the third not first response! So sorry for any repetition ...

[Nimiriel]

Thanks to all three of you for your quick responses. I cannot but enjoy the fact that you all confirm my own belives concerning fantasy, and in doing so provides me with the 'proof that the theories are apliable (does that word exist in English?) in general' that my teacher wants me to give her. Thanks guys!

And I eagerly await more replies, and for once DON'T WORRY ABOUT REPEATING OTHERS! I will only be happy to recieve alike answers, thoug of course it'll be enough to tell me you agree with one of the existing posts Can't wait to prove to my teacher I am right and she is wrong

And links to articles about teenagers and fantasy is still wanted... badly

Again, thanks for your help!

[Linnahiril Tinnufinwen]

Just out of curiosity, what is it exactly that your teacher thinks about fantasy? Does she not like LOTRs? Does she not understand that why teenagers would like it? But just as a precaution, please be nice to you're teacher; you can express your opinions, of course, but she has a right to have her own opinions too.

[Mithalwen]

That is true.... also often (and I speak as a former teacher ) it may be that it is not that they object to fantasy as such but they don't want you to read nothing but fantasy - and I know only too well that I can go a long time without reading much apart from Tolkien. Teachers like you to read a wide range. Also, when I was doing A-Levels and started university, I felt that I was "meant" to be reading more "serious" things and I think that attitude may linger... And it may well be that your teacher is not aware that there are some really good writers writing fantasy amongst the rip-off merchants.


However I am second guessing here what her objections may be.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Since this thread asks for opinions, not actual book discussion, I'm moving it to the Novices and Newcomers forum to join the other opinion threads. Please continue reading and posting there. Thanks!

[Nimiriel]

Originally Posted by Linnahiril Tinnufinwen

Just out of curiosity, what is it exactly that your teacher thinks about fantasy? Does she not like LOTRs? Does she not understand that why teenagers would like it? But just as a precaution, please be nice to you're teacher; you can express your opinions, of course, but she has a right to have her own opinions too.

Of course you are right! I just don't like people judging fantasy to be 'nothing but childrens' stories' and not worth looking deeper into than the story of the tale. To me the story is the MAIN reason to read fantasy, but there is no way the author can keep from letting some of his opinions/his view on life/the world show when writing a story. And THAT is what I want to show my teacher: That a story written for the story itself can STILL be interesting to take a closer look at.

Concerning the adolscents love for the fantasy genre she just doesn't trust me, I think, to make a proper analysis. I think she's afraid that I may just say "I like it because it's exciting" or "I like it because it has elves in it"... And IF I write a proper analysis without refertences to others' she'll prolly think I stole it somewhere...

I don't like my teacher, does it show?

But of course everyone is allowed their own opinions on litterature, as long as they don't tell me I don't understand litterature for having mine

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Here's a thread started by Finwe-89: Why do you like LOTR. I don't know if it helps but you might want to scroll it through, anyway.

I think she's afraid that I may just say "I like it because it's exciting" or "I like it because it has elves in it"...

You know, if you have to impress her (is she your english/literature teacher?) you could say that what truly fascinates you in LOTR are the subtle references to Nordic mythology and folklore. Or all the languages and their grammar structure that Tolkien created.

In literature and art in general, it's important that the books you read, the songs you hear and the paintings you see evoke feelings. A piece of art hasn't done its job if it doesn't provoke any thoughts in its viewer. Maybe one way to approach this essay of yours is to think about the atmosphere of the story (or the genre LOTR represents) and your personal experiences as a reader.

I definitely agree with Mithalwen about the escapism thing. When I read the books I feel that Middle-Earth is my world. It's a private place where I can go if life in this world starts getting on my nerve. Another thing that fascinates me is the romanticized culture where true heroes still exist. In LOTR you don't have to be the most handsome and skilled warrior to be a hero, though. You can really feel for the characters and that's what makes the book so real to me.

[Mithalwen]

Dancing spawn has picked up on something that occurred to me after I had finished posting and gone home. At the risk of sounding patronising, adolescents who have less time to become cynical about the world (this I know is a generalisation since many adolescents have already had more to cope with than others will face in their full span) and may respond to the idealism that can be a factor in some fantasy. In LotR there is a cause worth striving and fighting for and the seemingly insignificant hobbits save the world - not only Frodo and Sam who acheive the quest but Merry and Pippin whose intervention, sometime unwitting has crucial impact.

As for your problem with your teacher - the folklore thing seems a good way to go especially given your location. Tolkien was very proud of his Danish origins.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

As for your problem with your teacher - the folklore thing seems a good way to go especially given your location. Tolkien was very proud of his Danish origins.

Danish origins?

Either I learn something new everyday, or this is an error on your part. As far as I know, Tolkien was pretty much pure English, with the exception of that bit which gave him his name, the German-derived Tolkien.

Or do you mean North-western Europe in general? The whole "Northern/Nordic/Teutonic". Or Anglo-Saxon?

Or am I actually learning something new???

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Or am I actually learning something new???

Does that possibility really shock you so much?

I am basing it on the introduction to "The Road goes ever on" where Donald Swann who wrote his settings for Tolkiens' poems with JRRT's full cooperation and approval and who knew him well, said that Tolkien liked to think that the Tolkien name was in origin Danish from Tolkhun. So I mean distant origins ratehr than the nationality of his parents and grandparents.

And by the way you will be pushed to fins someone who is "pure English" Most of us are true mongrels if you scrape beneath the surface ( Although someone did do a survey of my mother's family as being typical yeoman stock...)
Tolkien while being South African born was of British blood .. and Suffield has an English sound.

[alatar]

Wow! Great posts.

My own personal journey has been(in regards to LOTR):

As a teenager, I was like 'this is just so cool - wizards and elves and damsels - oh my!' A fantasy story with enough testosterone to interest a teenaged boy, yet nothing icky-sticky to bog it down - that love stuff was off-screen mostly.

Later on, I saw that the story had much depth, and so dwelved into the appendices and the Silmarillion to eke out every bit that I could regarding the story, the characters, etc. These books were much different than anything else that I had read.

Still later, I saw it as an example of great literature (something to emulate). Plus, there was a spirituality to it that made a lot of sense, and in maybe a goofy way it had something to say to me. At times I could a see a piece of me in each character, and it gave me a good bit to think about.

Now, I can't wait to share it with my children. I used to rattle off a 15 minute version of the Hobbit to my son, and we've watched pieces of the movies together (then using wooden swords, acted out the same). One day he and his little sisters will find the books waiting for them in my library. I know that none of them may be as geeked out about them as I am, but there's always hope.

[Nimiriel]

Thanks to all of you for helping me out. SInce my project is now finished and turned in, I think this thread should be closed, as there's prolly others out there concerning the reason why we love LotR so much