The End of the Silmarilion(Spoilers) Morgoth's End - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Armetiel · 02-03-2004, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees. And the two Silmarils which remainedd to Morgoth were taken from his crown, and they shone unsullied beneath the sky; and Eonwe took them, and guarded them.
Thus an end was made of the power of Angband in the North, and the evil realm was brought to naught

Was anyone else wholly disappointed at this end...it seemed to unravel so quickly (especially if you compare it to the Lord of the Rings, but for now, I am not)
But for some reason it reminded me of when I was still in school and writing a story for English. I would go to so much effort and spend so much time working up to the main battle, or to whatever it is that needs to be accomplished...and then look at the clock and realize that I have no time for a proper ending...and just rush it all off "And then they arrived at whereever it was they were trying to get to...and they destroyed the bad guy, and every one lived happily ever after, the end" after pages and pages of building up to that...

Anyways, I was just wondering, can someone make it more interesting for me? lol. I don't know why that line was such a downer for me, but can someone who like the line try to explain it in different terms so I can see what a good ending it really is lol?
(I know, an odd request, but I've read it a few times, and think I need to hear this from someone else's POV)

Legolas · 02-03-2004, 01:02 PM

I didn't find it disappointing at all. What about it is disappointing? They had fought for years and years; the final battle of the First Age, the War of Wrath, was quite a climax.

Perhaps if you find this "end" disappointing, it will help to know that at the end of the world Morgoth will return to take part in a final battle and suffer ultimate defeat.

Armetiel · 02-03-2004, 01:50 PM

^no I know about the final end, and I know about how they fought for years and years..it's just the wording of it at that one spot seems too sudden for me..like it needs more detail or something...everything else is great.

Kransha · 02-03-2004, 01:52 PM

I suppose I'm slightly dissapointed by this, but not much. Though a mega-epic battle would've been better than the chaining bit, Morgoth did enough damage and it had to end. His campaign killed many more great heroes than that of Sauron (Turin technically, Fingolfin, Ecthelion, etc). He had an epic battle with Fingolfin, who he killed eventually, and his various servants caused incredible damage. It had to end somewhere, and it did. Plus, he's gonna come back eventually.

Armetiel · 02-03-2004, 02:03 PM

^thanks, yeh that makes sense...and yeh, it did have to come to an end somewhere...(unfortunetly) it's mostly the phrase that they "took the" last to silmarils that bothers me I think...like maybe if it said something about "Morgoth tried to stop them but didn't succeed" in there (in different wording of course, more detail on HOW he tries to stop them, but how he can't because of the chains...I dunno lol or else somehow that he has "admitted defeat" or something may tie in better with his head being bowed to his knees...but some sort of explanation why he doesn't do anything...or at least SAY anything...I dunno lol

lathspell · 02-04-2004, 04:43 AM

The End of the Silmarillion (from the words of Eärendil to Manwë till the actual End) is indeed very short, but I think Tolkien did this to show the power of the Ainur, which came to M-e's help.
The Noldor fought many fights against Morgoth, but he grew greater all along, yet the Elves were the most powerful beings in M-e at that point.
The point Tolkien tries to make is, I believe, that nothing in Arda is more powerful than the Ainur. And he underlines this with the swift ending of the book when the Ainur get involved.

greetings,
lathspell

burrahobbit · 02-04-2004, 01:41 PM

That, and all of the big amazing things that happen in big amazing times don't seem so big or amazing when you know all of the little things about them.

camomile · 02-04-2004, 01:58 PM

one thing you also have to bear in mind wile you are reading the silmerilion is that is not a storie like LOTR, but a history of middle earth. it is phasanating to learn about all te events leading up to the war of the ring and the third age of MI, but that is realy the climactic point in Tolkiens writing. when you view it in that light the ending seames more like a begenning and less like an ebrupt ending.
(just my take on it)

burrahobbit · 02-04-2004, 05:03 PM

>:/

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:04 PM February 04, 2004: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Kransha · 02-04-2004, 06:51 PM

In time, Tolkein might've expanded on that to a point.

Since LotR was so successful in general story form, some other histories might've been adopted. They would be written individually, rather than as a history book. That way the story of Glaurung abd Turin, Morgoth's fight with Fingolfin, The Seige of Gondolin and Nargothrond, and the chaining of Melkor could be expanded upon to make more full length. Also, more detail on the Last Alliance and othe historic events.

Legolas · 02-04-2004, 08:05 PM

If it's the history book quality to the statement you don't like, there's really nothing one can say to help - the book is a history book. You might note that the entire book is written in the same manner. It's a novel, but presented as a historical account by book keepers as opposed to the journal-type personal account of Frodo and Bilbo.

Armetiel · 02-05-2004, 12:29 AM

^no no, if you read, I love the rest of the book, i have no problem with the history-like writing. (Actually, I love it...I'm trying to major in history lol)

but what you guys are saying does make sense, I just wished he had lived to expand on to that part, (not saying he would have, I just would have liked a more detailed expansion onto that )

Thanks all

drigel · 02-06-2004, 03:11 PM

That has always been a knock on JRRT - even for LOTR: 50 pages of dialog and 1 paragraph of action [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] but in terms of an historical tome I think it fits. I think of it this way: That one ending probably had a thousand stories and legends, which were inevitably and entirely lost over the ages. We are lucky there was someone (JRRT) who had the "vision" to be able to see the history and was able to translate it into one entire story. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

02-03-2004, 01:02 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	I didn't find it disappointing at all. What about it is disappointing? They had fought for years and years; the final battle of the First Age, the War of Wrath, was quite a climax. Perhaps if you find this "end" disappointing, it will help to know that at the end of the world Morgoth will return to take part in a final battle and suffer ultimate defeat. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-03-2004, 01:50 PM	#3
Armetiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 74	^no I know about the final end, and I know about how they fought for years and years..it's just the wording of it at that one spot seems too sudden for me..like it needs more detail or something...everything else is great. __________________ "Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your strength, and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 6:5

02-03-2004, 01:52 PM	#4
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	I suppose I'm slightly dissapointed by this, but not much. Though a mega-epic battle would've been better than the chaining bit, Morgoth did enough damage and it had to end. His campaign killed many more great heroes than that of Sauron (Turin technically, Fingolfin, Ecthelion, etc). He had an epic battle with Fingolfin, who he killed eventually, and his various servants caused incredible damage. It had to end somewhere, and it did. Plus, he's gonna come back eventually. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-03-2004, 02:03 PM	#5
Armetiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 74	^thanks, yeh that makes sense...and yeh, it did have to come to an end somewhere...(unfortunetly) it's mostly the phrase that they "took the" last to silmarils that bothers me I think...like maybe if it said something about "Morgoth tried to stop them but didn't succeed" in there (in different wording of course, more detail on HOW he tries to stop them, but how he can't because of the chains...I dunno lol or else somehow that he has "admitted defeat" or something may tie in better with his head being bowed to his knees...but some sort of explanation why he doesn't do anything...or at least SAY anything...I dunno lol __________________ "Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your strength, and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 6:5

02-04-2004, 04:43 AM	#6
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	The End of the Silmarillion (from the words of Eärendil to Manwë till the actual End) is indeed very short, but I think Tolkien did this to show the power of the Ainur, which came to M-e's help. The Noldor fought many fights against Morgoth, but he grew greater all along, yet the Elves were the most powerful beings in M-e at that point. The point Tolkien tries to make is, I believe, that nothing in Arda is more powerful than the Ainur. And he underlines this with the swift ending of the book when the Ainur get involved. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

02-04-2004, 01:41 PM	#7
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	That, and all of the big amazing things that happen in big amazing times don't seem so big or amazing when you know all of the little things about them. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-04-2004, 01:58 PM	#8
camomile Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Athens Ga U.S.A Posts: 11	one thing you also have to bear in mind wile you are reading the silmerilion is that is not a storie like LOTR, but a history of middle earth. it is phasanating to learn about all te events leading up to the war of the ring and the third age of MI, but that is realy the climactic point in Tolkiens writing. when you view it in that light the ending seames more like a begenning and less like an ebrupt ending. (just my take on it) __________________ not all that is gold does glitter, not all those who wander are lost

02-04-2004, 05:03 PM	#9
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	>:/ <font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:04 PM February 04, 2004: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-04-2004, 06:51 PM	#10
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	In time, Tolkein might've expanded on that to a point. Since LotR was so successful in general story form, some other histories might've been adopted. They would be written individually, rather than as a history book. That way the story of Glaurung abd Turin, Morgoth's fight with Fingolfin, The Seige of Gondolin and Nargothrond, and the chaining of Melkor could be expanded upon to make more full length. Also, more detail on the Last Alliance and othe historic events. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-04-2004, 08:05 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	If it's the history book quality to the statement you don't like, there's really nothing one can say to help - the book is a history book. You might note that the entire book is written in the same manner. It's a novel, but presented as a historical account by book keepers as opposed to the journal-type personal account of Frodo and Bilbo. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

02-05-2004, 12:29 AM	#12
Armetiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 74	^no no, if you read, I love the rest of the book, i have no problem with the history-like writing. (Actually, I love it...I'm trying to major in history lol) but what you guys are saying does make sense, I just wished he had lived to expand on to that part, (not saying he would have, I just would have liked a more detailed expansion onto that ) Thanks all __________________ "Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your strength, and with all your soul." Deuteronomy 6:5

02-06-2004, 03:11 PM	#13
drigel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: commonplace city Posts: 518	That has always been a knock on JRRT - even for LOTR: 50 pages of dialog and 1 paragraph of action [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] but in terms of an historical tome I think it fits. I think of it this way: That one ending probably had a thousand stories and legends, which were inevitably and entirely lost over the ages. We are lucky there was someone (JRRT) who had the "vision" to be able to see the history and was able to translate it into one entire story. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]