Silmaril - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Voralphion · 10-22-2002, 07:54 PM

After the War of the Wrath when Morgoth was defeated the Silmarils were won back by Eonwe. They were then stolen by the two remaining sons of Feanor and were lost in a crack in the earth and the ocean were they were deemed unrecoverable. The one in the earth was definately unable to be recovered by the Valar, but couldn't the one in the ocean be recovered by Ulmo. I would have thought that if they were important since they held the light of the Two Trees that the Valar would have told Ulmo to get the onte in the ocean.

ColletteTook · 10-22-2002, 08:00 PM

What an interesting way to convey that...hmm I would say that Tolkien probably has some reason or another for the Silmaril not to be recovered (he obviously wanted them all lost)
Though, it makes an interesting thought in your head, a stoyr of your own you could make, possible a fanfiction on what would have happened if it HAD been recovered by Ulmo.

***Sharkû*** · 10-23-2002, 05:06 AM

I hope the log of a chat conversation Mr. Underhill and I had a few weeks ago can shed some light on this.

[17:09] [Sharkû] Also, why didn't, or couldn't, Ulmo recover Maglor's Silmaril?
[17:10] [Sharkû] Or Ossë
[17:11] [Mr. Underhill] Who says they didn't? Ulmo probably has it on his mantle in some undersea cave/castle.
[17:11] [Mr. Underhill] What's he gonna do -- give it back? I think not.
[17:13] [Sharkû] seriously, if it can be descried from as far high up as Vilya or even behind the Walls of the World, it should be able to be found, and I don't see anything that did not give the Valar the right to retrieve it
[17:14] [Sharkû] It's not like they didn't want to have the remaining two.
[17:15] [Mr. Underhill] I don't recall specifics. Did they? I'd have to do some reading up before I could respond intelligently.
[17:15] [Mr. Underhill] Do I smell potential new topics?
[17:19] [Sharkû] [Eonwë further said that] The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning; and to Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgement of the Valar, by whose decree alone would Eönwë yield the jewels from his charge.
[17:20] [Mr. Underhill] That the Sil?
[17:21] [Sharkû] 77, almost verbatim from QS, which further goes on:
[17:21] [Sharkû] "Yet their joy in victory was
[17:21] [Sharkû] diminished, for they returned without the Silmarils and the light
[17:21] [Sharkû] before the Sun and Moon, and they knew that those jewels could
[17:21] [Sharkû] not be found or brought together again until the world was broken
[17:21] [Sharkû] , and re-made anew.
[17:21] [Mr. Underhill] Just looking at that one myself.
[17:28] [Sharkû] My best guess would be that it was for some obscure reason necessary fate for the Silmarils to be "lost" until after the Dagor Dagorath.
[17:28] [Sharkû] How Eonwë could know that I cannot explain.
[17:34] [Mr. Underhill] No doubt some revelation from his boss, who in turn got it from his boss.
[17:36] [Sharkû] It is only interesting that he knew not before he took them.
[17:37] [Sharkû] Can we deduce that the hosts of Aman went to ME without consulting Eru first?
[17:38] [Mr. Underhill] Not sure how the HoME sources bear on this, but this appears to be the key turning point:
[17:38] [Mr. Underhill] Then all the camp was raised against them, and they prepared to die, defending themselves until the last. But Eönwë would not permit the slaying of the sons of Fëanor; and departing unfought they fled far away.
[17:38] [Sharkû] That seems unlikely, for it was contemporary with the judgement of Earendel and the half-Elves.
[17:43] [Sharkû] Also, I don't see how Earendel's Silmaril could be irretrievable when after the Dagor Dagorath he would 'descend and surrender the flame which he had in keeping' anyway.
[17:44] [Mr. Underhill] Good point, Sharkey. There seems to be a clear pattern here of putting the Silmarils away until "Da End".
[17:44] [Sharkû] I wonder whether the Valar would have put them away had they been able to get the Maglor and maedhros stones to Aman.
[17:48] [Mr. Underhill] Dunno, Sharkey, but Eönwë's allowing the brothers to run off w/o a fight suggests maybe so.
[17:48] [Mr. Underhill] Or that them running off with the stones was fate or what have you.
[17:49] [Sharkû] It's quite a paradox to retrieve something only to lose it intentionally immediately afterwards.
[17:51] [Sharkû] I think it is safe to say that Fionwe's mission was at first only to get the Silmarils to Aman, but received further instructions as to proceeding with them either before or after the attack on the Mouths of Sirion
[17:52] [Sharkû] cf. the "by whose decree alone would Fionwe yield the Jewels from his charge"

[ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]

10-22-2002, 07:54 PM	#1
Voralphion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sharkey's End Posts: 267	Silmaril After the War of the Wrath when Morgoth was defeated the Silmarils were won back by Eonwe. They were then stolen by the two remaining sons of Feanor and were lost in a crack in the earth and the ocean were they were deemed unrecoverable. The one in the earth was definately unable to be recovered by the Valar, but couldn't the one in the ocean be recovered by Ulmo. I would have thought that if they were important since they held the light of the Two Trees that the Valar would have told Ulmo to get the onte in the ocean. __________________ His sword was long his lance was keen His shining helm afar was seen The countless stars of heavens field Were mirrored in his silver shield

10-22-2002, 08:00 PM	#2
ColletteTook Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Hobbiton and Tinnuvielda Posts: 369	What an interesting way to convey that...hmm I would say that Tolkien probably has some reason or another for the Silmaril not to be recovered (he obviously wanted them all lost) Though, it makes an interesting thought in your head, a stoyr of your own you could make, possible a fanfiction on what would have happened if it HAD been recovered by Ulmo. __________________ A Hobbit of Bywater

10-23-2002, 05:06 AM	#3
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	I hope the log of a chat conversation Mr. Underhill and I had a few weeks ago can shed some light on this. [17:09] [Sharkû] Also, why didn't, or couldn't, Ulmo recover Maglor's Silmaril? [17:10] [Sharkû] Or Ossë [17:11] [Mr. Underhill] Who says they didn't? Ulmo probably has it on his mantle in some undersea cave/castle. [17:11] [Mr. Underhill] What's he gonna do -- give it back? I think not. [17:13] [Sharkû] seriously, if it can be descried from as far high up as Vilya or even behind the Walls of the World, it should be able to be found, and I don't see anything that did not give the Valar the right to retrieve it [17:14] [Sharkû] It's not like they didn't want to have the remaining two. [17:15] [Mr. Underhill] I don't recall specifics. Did they? I'd have to do some reading up before I could respond intelligently. [17:15] [Mr. Underhill] Do I smell potential new topics? [17:19] [Sharkû] [Eonwë further said that] The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning; and to Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgement of the Valar, by whose decree alone would Eönwë yield the jewels from his charge. [17:20] [Mr. Underhill] That the Sil? [17:21] [Sharkû] 77, almost verbatim from QS, which further goes on: [17:21] [Sharkû] "Yet their joy in victory was [17:21] [Sharkû] diminished, for they returned without the Silmarils and the light [17:21] [Sharkû] before the Sun and Moon, and they knew that those jewels could [17:21] [Sharkû] not be found or brought together again until the world was broken [17:21] [Sharkû] , and re-made anew. [17:21] [Mr. Underhill] Just looking at that one myself. [17:28] [Sharkû] My best guess would be that it was for some obscure reason necessary fate for the Silmarils to be "lost" until after the Dagor Dagorath. [17:28] [Sharkû] How Eonwë could know that I cannot explain. [17:34] [Mr. Underhill] No doubt some revelation from his boss, who in turn got it from his boss. [17:36] [Sharkû] It is only interesting that he knew not before he took them. [17:37] [Sharkû] Can we deduce that the hosts of Aman went to ME without consulting Eru first? [17:38] [Mr. Underhill] Not sure how the HoME sources bear on this, but this appears to be the key turning point: [17:38] [Mr. Underhill] Then all the camp was raised against them, and they prepared to die, defending themselves until the last. But Eönwë would not permit the slaying of the sons of Fëanor; and departing unfought they fled far away. [17:38] [Sharkû] That seems unlikely, for it was contemporary with the judgement of Earendel and the half-Elves. [17:43] [Sharkû] Also, I don't see how Earendel's Silmaril could be irretrievable when after the Dagor Dagorath he would 'descend and surrender the flame which he had in keeping' anyway. [17:44] [Mr. Underhill] Good point, Sharkey. There seems to be a clear pattern here of putting the Silmarils away until "Da End". [17:44] [Sharkû] I wonder whether the Valar would have put them away had they been able to get the Maglor and maedhros stones to Aman. [17:48] [Mr. Underhill] Dunno, Sharkey, but Eönwë's allowing the brothers to run off w/o a fight suggests maybe so. [17:48] [Mr. Underhill] Or that them running off with the stones was fate or what have you. [17:49] [Sharkû] It's quite a paradox to retrieve something only to lose it intentionally immediately afterwards. [17:51] [Sharkû] I think it is safe to say that Fionwe's mission was at first only to get the Silmarils to Aman, but received further instructions as to proceeding with them either before or after the attack on the Mouths of Sirion [17:52] [Sharkû] cf. the "by whose decree alone would Fionwe yield the Jewels from his charge" [ October 23, 2002: Message edited by: Sharkû ]