The Ringwraiths and the Five Wizards..... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dondagnirion · 02-16-2003, 04:06 AM

I have a theory that I want to get your opinions on. I think since we do not know the names of all but two of the ringwraiths that who they are can be somewhat determined in this way. Is it possible since Saruman, Allatar, and Pallando went into the east (where the second in charge ringwraith, Khamul, came from) and never came back, that Allatar and Pallando became Ringwraiths? I think it is quite possible that Saruman, Allatar and Pallando went into the east to try and dissuade lords there from excepting any one of the nine rings from Sauron, ending up fighting to stop there creation or to destroy the ones already present, or that just plain and simple that Allatar and Pallando were ensnared be Sauron somehow and they took two of the rings making them two of the Ringwraiths? Just and idea the popped into my head, give me your opinions.

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon."

obloquy · 02-16-2003, 04:16 AM

No, because the Ringwraiths were Men.

Naldoriathil · 02-16-2003, 04:50 AM

Basically.......no. Sorry. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

doug*platypus · 02-16-2003, 05:08 AM

Interesting theory, and yes it is very tempting just to put the foot down and say NO that can't be!! It's impossible!

But what obloquy and Naldoriathil conveniently neglect is the fact that the Istari were incarnate as men. They were not in their original form as they were in Valinor. They were subject to hunger, to weariness, to fear and to despair. In their forms as wizards they were not in touch with all of their power. Only Gandalf the White even came close. Alatar and Pallando were not as powerful as Saruman or Gandalf, and so it is possible that they would become servants to Sauron if given a Ring of Power.

But I doubt they did!! Especially given the timeline - the Istari arrived around the year 1000 of the Third Age... when the Nazgûl had already been around for about 1600 years.

Dondagnirion · 02-16-2003, 10:26 AM

Alright thanks, I thought that the timing might be off. It would have been more than probable that they were ringwraiths though if the timing had been right. I wonder whatever happened to Allatar and Pallando....

Dondagnirion
"There is no spoon."

Aratlithiel · 02-16-2003, 10:40 AM

Incarnate as Men, doug but NOT Men...they had powers that far exceeded anything Men possessed and if they had become Ringwraiths, they would have been much more powerful than the ones that existed. We don't even know the full extent of the wizards' powers because they were not permitted to show them. Just because they appeared to be Men, does not mean they were and had the same weaknesses or strengths. I shudder to think about what a wizard-turned-Nazgul would be like - certainly much more powerful than the Nine.

lathspell · 02-16-2003, 10:48 AM

Indeed no. According to the Tale of Years the Nazgul appeared first in the year 2251 SA. The Istari came over the seas when about 1000 years had passed in the TA.

Only one thing is said that I know of about the fates of the Blue Wizards. It is in UT - Istari - Note 3. I guess it's in the letters as well, but I don't have them yet.

Quote:

In a letter written in 1958 my father said that he knew nothing clearly about 'the other two', since they were not concerned in the history of the North-west of Middle-earth. 'I think,' he wrote, 'they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to "enemy-occupied" lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know, but I fear that they failed as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.'

Namarië,
lathspell

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-16-2003, 10:51 AM

The only way that your theory can be possible is if we take the Eastern Wizards to have come in the second age,(Since that is when the Nazgul first appeared) as one essay stipulates, their names were Romestano and Morinehtar, but the essay hints at the fact that they didn't fail their missions.

But, I think that should be discarded, and that the Eastern Wizards coming in the Third Age should be the correct one.

obloquy · 02-16-2003, 03:00 PM

They were not Istari to begin with and then incarnate as Men. Their original nature was Maia and as incarnates they were Istari. At no point did they become Men.

Ainaserkewen · 02-18-2003, 02:33 PM

I don't know much of the Nazgul but I would like to know which 8 other kings received the rings? In the appendix it gives all the names of Kings from Numenor to Aragorn, which 8? I know of the witch king already. Are these names in a sequel?
Final note, I read today that people think Tolken named the nazgul because
Nazi and Ghoul? What do you think? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Ithaeliel · 02-18-2003, 09:33 PM

Ainaserkewen: The reason you would not have found anything in the appendixes on the 8 other Nazgul would be because most are from different sunderings of men (i.e. most of them were NOT Numenoreans). There was Khamul the Easterling and the witch-king (a Numenorean) known to name, but Tolkien did not go into much (if any, besides the two mentioned above) detail on the origins of the Ringwraiths. All that is known is that they were kings and lords of their peoples, they were men and only men, and they were ensnared and corrupted by Sauron. I asked the question myself not too long ago; I got the same answer.

[ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Ithaeliel ]

Adanadhel · 02-18-2003, 11:06 PM

I do not recall ever reading that the Witch King was a Numenorean. I had always thaought he might be a Black Numenorean. He was from a kingdom north and east of Arnor, the Numenorean lands in northen ME...

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-19-2003, 06:01 AM

If the Witchking was a Black Numnerorean, then it is more probable that he was from Umbar, or a Southern M-E Numenorean fortress.

The Black Numenoreans mainly lived to the south of M-E. They didn't want to interact with the Elves, who mainly lived in the North.

[ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

Adanadhel · 02-19-2003, 11:40 AM

Yes, the LOTR appendixes state he is from the south and then came north.... This is why I always assumed that he might be a Black Numneorean. My question was though - where does it say he definately is one?

Ailios · 02-19-2003, 05:04 PM

In TT, the forbidden pool chapter, when Faramir advices Frodo not to go to Cirith Ungol, he says that Sauron gave rings to wicked Numenoreans. From his account you get the impression that all the Ringwraiths were Numenorean. I know that this contradicts the statement in the Rings of Power and the thrid age, where three of them are Numenorean and the story in UT, where one of them is an easterling.
Anyway, the fact that the WK is taller than the others and that is the chief among them suggest that he should be a Numenorean. They were taller than most people of MiddleEarth and also the most powerful. Any comments?

Ithaeliel · 02-19-2003, 06:37 PM

Yes, my mistake; I meant to say he was a black Numenorean. I didn't know there was a difference until now! I really need to get up on my reading...

One Axe to Rule them All · 04-10-2003, 04:10 PM

the fact is that the men had the rings, they were corrupted by the ruling ring, they were the greediest and had the least self-control so they lost.

YES, other ringwraiths can be made, remember when frodo got stabbed?

so it is possible that they could have been made ringwraiths, but i think not.

One Axe to Rule them All · 04-10-2003, 04:12 PM

And when did this turn into a conversation where they argue about where the ringwraiths came from? [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Meoshi · 04-10-2003, 06:58 PM

Getting stabbed with a morgul-blade wouldn't turn you into a ringwraith. It would turn you into a plain ol' wraith.

02-16-2003, 04:06 AM	#1
Dondagnirion Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Glittering Caves Posts: 241	The Ringwraiths and the Five Wizards..... I have a theory that I want to get your opinions on. I think since we do not know the names of all but two of the ringwraiths that who they are can be somewhat determined in this way. Is it possible since Saruman, Allatar, and Pallando went into the east (where the second in charge ringwraith, Khamul, came from) and never came back, that Allatar and Pallando became Ringwraiths? I think it is quite possible that Saruman, Allatar and Pallando went into the east to try and dissuade lords there from excepting any one of the nine rings from Sauron, ending up fighting to stop there creation or to destroy the ones already present, or that just plain and simple that Allatar and Pallando were ensnared be Sauron somehow and they took two of the rings making them two of the Ringwraiths? Just and idea the popped into my head, give me your opinions. Dondagnirion "There is no spoon." __________________ "It is useless to meet revenge with revenge; it will heal nothing." - Frodo "Will shall be the sterner, heart the bolder, spirit the greater, as our strength lessens." "The only reason for time is so that everything doesnt happen all at once." - Albert Einstein

02-16-2003, 04:50 AM	#3
Naldoriathil Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London Posts: 71	Basically.......no. Sorry. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "He is Aragorn, Son of Arathorn, Heir to the Throne of Gondor!"

02-16-2003, 05:08 AM	#4
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	Interesting theory, and yes it is very tempting just to put the foot down and say NO that can't be!! It's impossible! But what obloquy and Naldoriathil conveniently neglect is the fact that the Istari were incarnate as men. They were not in their original form as they were in Valinor. They were subject to hunger, to weariness, to fear and to despair. In their forms as wizards they were not in touch with all of their power. Only Gandalf the White even came close. Alatar and Pallando were not as powerful as Saruman or Gandalf, and so it is possible that they would become servants to Sauron if given a Ring of Power. But I doubt they did!! Especially given the timeline - the Istari arrived around the year 1000 of the Third Age... when the Nazgûl had already been around for about 1600 years. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

02-16-2003, 10:26 AM	#5
Dondagnirion Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Glittering Caves Posts: 241	Alright thanks, I thought that the timing might be off. It would have been more than probable that they were ringwraiths though if the timing had been right. I wonder whatever happened to Allatar and Pallando.... Dondagnirion "There is no spoon." __________________ "It is useless to meet revenge with revenge; it will heal nothing." - Frodo "Will shall be the sterner, heart the bolder, spirit the greater, as our strength lessens." "The only reason for time is so that everything doesnt happen all at once." - Albert Einstein

02-16-2003, 10:40 AM	#6
Aratlithiel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 196	Incarnate as Men, doug but NOT Men...they had powers that far exceeded anything Men possessed and if they had become Ringwraiths, they would have been much more powerful than the ones that existed. We don't even know the full extent of the wizards' powers because they were not permitted to show them. Just because they appeared to be Men, does not mean they were and had the same weaknesses or strengths. I shudder to think about what a wizard-turned-Nazgul would be like - certainly much more powerful than the Nine. __________________ - I must find the Mountain of Fire and cast the thing into the gulf of Doom. Gandalf said so. I do not think I shall ever get there. - Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. - Where are we going?...And why am I in this handbasket?

02-16-2003, 04:16 AM	#2
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	No, because the Ringwraiths were Men.

02-16-2003, 10:51 AM	#8
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	The only way that your theory can be possible is if we take the Eastern Wizards to have come in the second age,(Since that is when the Nazgul first appeared) as one essay stipulates, their names were Romestano and Morinehtar, but the essay hints at the fact that they didn't fail their missions. But, I think that should be discarded, and that the Eastern Wizards coming in the Third Age should be the correct one. __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-16-2003, 03:00 PM	#9
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 935	They were not Istari to begin with and then incarnate as Men. Their original nature was Maia and as incarnates they were Istari. At no point did they become Men.

02-18-2003, 02:33 PM	#10
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 651	I don't know much of the Nazgul but I would like to know which 8 other kings received the rings? In the appendix it gives all the names of Kings from Numenor to Aragorn, which 8? I know of the witch king already. Are these names in a sequel? Final note, I read today that people think Tolken named the nazgul because Nazi and Ghoul? What do you think? [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

02-18-2003, 09:33 PM	#11
Ithaeliel Cornus Caliga Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Five-hundred-twenty-five thousand, six hundred minutes from here Posts: 710	Ainaserkewen: The reason you would not have found anything in the appendixes on the 8 other Nazgul would be because most are from different sunderings of men (i.e. most of them were NOT Numenoreans). There was Khamul the Easterling and the witch-king (a Numenorean) known to name, but Tolkien did not go into much (if any, besides the two mentioned above) detail on the origins of the Ringwraiths. All that is known is that they were kings and lords of their peoples, they were men and only men, and they were ensnared and corrupted by Sauron. I asked the question myself not too long ago; I got the same answer. [ February 18, 2003: Message edited by: Ithaeliel ] __________________ That best portion of a good man's life, His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. .................William Wordsworth

02-18-2003, 11:06 PM	#12
Adanadhel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 35	I do not recall ever reading that the Witch King was a Numenorean. I had always thaought he might be a Black Numenorean. He was from a kingdom north and east of Arnor, the Numenorean lands in northen ME... __________________ I don't feel safe in Middle Earth no more... I don't want to die in the ruling ring war... I want to sail away to a distant shore... and make like an ELF man

02-19-2003, 06:01 AM	#13
Inderjit Sanghera Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England Posts: 716	If the Witchking was a Black Numnerorean, then it is more probable that he was from Umbar, or a Southern M-E Numenorean fortress. The Black Numenoreans mainly lived to the south of M-E. They didn't want to interact with the Elves, who mainly lived in the North. [ February 19, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ] __________________ “If I’m more of an influence on your son as a rapper then you are as a father then you've got to look at yourself as a parent” ~>Ice Cube. "Life is so beautiful"->Don Vito Corleone

02-19-2003, 11:40 AM	#14
Adanadhel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New England Posts: 35	Yes, the LOTR appendixes state he is from the south and then came north.... This is why I always assumed that he might be a Black Numneorean. My question was though - where does it say he definately is one? __________________ I don't feel safe in Middle Earth no more... I don't want to die in the ruling ring war... I want to sail away to a distant shore... and make like an ELF man

02-19-2003, 05:04 PM	#15
Ailios Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forochel Posts: 28	In TT, the forbidden pool chapter, when Faramir advices Frodo not to go to Cirith Ungol, he says that Sauron gave rings to wicked Numenoreans. From his account you get the impression that all the Ringwraiths were Numenorean. I know that this contradicts the statement in the Rings of Power and the thrid age, where three of them are Numenorean and the story in UT, where one of them is an easterling. Anyway, the fact that the WK is taller than the others and that is the chief among them suggest that he should be a Numenorean. They were taller than most people of MiddleEarth and also the most powerful. Any comments? __________________ Ailios

02-19-2003, 06:37 PM	#16
Ithaeliel Cornus Caliga Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Five-hundred-twenty-five thousand, six hundred minutes from here Posts: 710	Yes, my mistake; I meant to say he was a black Numenorean. I didn't know there was a difference until now! I really need to get up on my reading... __________________ That best portion of a good man's life, His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. .................William Wordsworth

04-10-2003, 04:10 PM	#17
One Axe to Rule them All Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Citadel Posts: 212	the fact is that the men had the rings, they were corrupted by the ruling ring, they were the greediest and had the least self-control so they lost. YES, other ringwraiths can be made, remember when frodo got stabbed? so it is possible that they could have been made ringwraiths, but i think not. __________________ Why are you reading this? Go outside, be happy, get some sunlight! You're so pasty and thin! You horrify me, GO! Get some light before they take you too! It's too late for me but SAVE YOURSELF! For more LOTR fun, Join The Citadel!

04-10-2003, 04:12 PM	#18
One Axe to Rule them All Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Citadel Posts: 212	And when did this turn into a conversation where they argue about where the ringwraiths came from? [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] __________________ Why are you reading this? Go outside, be happy, get some sunlight! You're so pasty and thin! You horrify me, GO! Get some light before they take you too! It's too late for me but SAVE YOURSELF! For more LOTR fun, Join The Citadel!

04-10-2003, 06:58 PM	#19
Meoshi Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Atop the peak of Kalormë Posts: 163	Getting stabbed with a morgul-blade wouldn't turn you into a ringwraith. It would turn you into a plain ol' wraith.