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#1 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,301
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A moving moment, in hindsight.
On my zillionth rereading of LR, and just got to the departure of the Fellowship from Rivendell. There occurs this exchange (mocked by some as trading platitudes):
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It would take two decades before the hidden grief was revealed to readers: Elrond was raised by Maglor. No heart in the history of Arda was more broken by sworn word!
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#2 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,504
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Good catch, WCH. I had not considered that. Or as you inferred, I did not take it in the context that Elrond could have intended.
That whole Maglor adopting Elrond and Elros sequence is relatively short, and leaves a great chasm into what actually happened. For instance, did Elrond and Elros actually know as children what happened to Earendil and Elwing? Did Maglor even know? It could be assumed that they had died, couldn't it? And who would be to blame for that but the sons of Feanor? Seems odd that great love could spring from this adoption unless there was at least an inkling about what happened. Perhaps I am misremembering, but I am feeling uniquely lazy today. I think I'll take a bike ride with my wife and then feel more...scholarly.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Treetops, C/O Great Smials
Posts: 5,035
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By sworn word, you mean the Oath taken by Feanor and his sons?
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"Sit by the firelight's glow; tell us an old tale we know. Tell of adventures strange and rare; never to change, ever to share! Stories we tell will cast their spell, now and for always." |
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#4 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,787
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Of course, the refugees from the Havens would probably assume the twins were dead, too: Tolkien seems to have settled on their names coming from being found at a cave by a waterfall, so it doesn't sound like anyone from the Havens saw them being captured rather than killed (as the previous generation of Doriathrin royal twins had been). That great love did spring from Maglor's raising of the pair is seen through those very names: the timelines suggest the twins were six at the Third Kinslaying, easily old enough to remember their own names! I'd conjecture that they refused to give their names to Maglor when he found them - he was, after all, the person who'd just destroyed their home, even if they didn't know about their mother yet - and so he coined two nicknames for them. The fact that those nicknames stuck, and were still in use over six thousand years later, tells you how close they must have been. hS |
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#5 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,311
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That... is exactly my reaction. Gee. I never interpreted Elrond's words that way, he was just being vaguely wise and foresighted (given the decisions made after the Breaking of the Fellowship). But oh my god. What if he actually had another great quest in mind that went too far because of an oath. That is... wow.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#6 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,301
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,031
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I'm not sure the letter dated 1958 necessarily represents Tolkien's final scenario here, as the idea is connected to Elrond meaning *Elf of the Cave...
... and not long after, Elrond is said to mean "Star-dome" (1959-60, Quendi and Eldar). In The Shibboleth of Feanor (1968 or later) it was said that the names Elros and Elrond: "were formed to recall the name of their mother Elwing" with Elros meaning "Starlit foam" And in The Problem of ROS (1968 or later): "Now Elrond was a word for the firmament, the starry dome as it appeared like a roof to Arda; and it was given by Elwing in memory of the great Hall of the throne of Elwe in the midst of his stronghold Menegroth that was called the Menelrond,..." And in letter 345 (1972) Elrond meant "The vault of stars" If a meaning "Elf of the Cave" is out, as it appears at least, my total guess is that the story went out with it. Not necessarily so, I admit; but anyway. |
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#8 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,787
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I'm not sure where the notion of Father-names being private comes from - can you expand on that? Obviously both Fingolfin and Finarfin used theirs, as did Curufin and Celebrimbor, and for that matter Fingon and Finrod (the dysfunctional House Finwe naming patterns at least make it easy to spot the father-names!). I'm also not sure there's any evidence of mother- and father-names being a thing at all outside of Valinor - the only example I can think of is Gil-Galad, and he was a scion of the royal Noldorin line. (Also, Tolkien Gateway has it the other way round: it claims 'The father-name was a public name, announced in a ceremony called Essecarmë ("name-making").' But without access to LaCE at the moment, I'm not going to trust that implicitly.) Quote:
Of course, if you wanted a proper 'both no and yes' answer... perhaps Maglor, searching for the missing children with memories of the previous set of twins dancing through his head, called out 'is there anyone [any elf] in the cave?', and the echoes meant that all the kids heard was 'el...rond...'; Elrond calls back, and the rest is history. ![]() (In fairness, I should also point out that the consensus timeline of the First Age is a Frankensteined-together bodge, so the idea that the twins were 6 at the Third Kinslaying isn't necessarily reflected in either account of their names.) hS |
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,031
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Yes, according to Laws and Customs, the Noldorin Father-name was public.
And according to the Shibboleth, Gil-galad was an epesse. I've constructed the following primarily based on two accounts from The History of Middle-earth. It's not entirely clear whether the "Note on Mother-names" [the later if briefer text in any case] is intended to replace "Of Naming" though I note in advance that the Chosen-name could be a Noldorin custom which differs from other Eldar. Also, even according to Christopher Tolkien the concept of the Chosen-name [this "probably Noldorin" type of chosen name] might have been abandonded [if not merely left out due to brevity]. If any dare cross the line of sleep. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Of Naming from Laws And Customs, Morgoth's Ring The description begins with respect to the naming of Children among the Noldor. Father-name It was the right of the father to devise this first name. It remained unaltered save for such changes as might befall its spoken form in the passing of the long years (even the tongues of the Eldar were subject to change). Chosen-name In which point, maybe, the Noldor differed from the other Eldar. It is said here that the Elf-child had the right to name himself or herslf. The ceremony of Name-choosing could not take place before the child was deemed ready and capable of lámatyáve, as the Noldor called it: that is, of individal pleasure in the sounds and forms of words. In elder times the Chosen-name or second name was usually freshly devised. In later ages, when there was a great abundance of names already in existence, '...it was more often selected from names that were known. But even so some modification of the old name might be made.' JRRT This wording does not seem to imply (in my opinion) that it was absolutely necessary that some modification must be made to the Chosen-name, but that it "might" be made. In any case the 'true-names' are here said to be the Father-name and Chosen-name, and the Chosen-names were said to be regarded by the Noldor as part of their personal property. New chosen names could be added. Anessi given or added names. Here we have the Mother-name, a name of insight or of foresight. A Mother-name was given in the hour of birth or on some other occasion of moment, indicating some dominant feature of the Elf-child's nature as perceived by her, or some foresight of its special fate. When solemnly given a Mother-name could also be regarded as a true name and was sometimes placed immediately after the Father-name. Mother-names of insight in general use sometimes replaced the Father-name and Chosen-name, however the Father-name and the Chosen-name (among those that had the custom of essecilme that is) remained ever the true or primary name, and a necessary part of any full title. Other Given-names were not considered true names, and names or nicknames of this kind might be given by anyone... in memory of some deed, or event, or in token of some marked feature of body or mind. Note On Mother-names The Peoples Of Middle-Earth The Eldar in Valinor had as a rule two names, a Father-name and a Mother-name. Mother-names were given later, often some years later, but also sometimes soon after birth. Epesse 'After-name' a nickname not necessarily given by kin and mostly given as a title of admiration or honour. Later some among the Exiles gave themselves names, as disguises or in reference to their own deeds and personal history: such names were called cilmessi 'self-names'. The true names remained the Father and Mother-names it seems, according to this account. This is the brief version anyway ![]() |
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#10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,031
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Also, what's wrong with Dogbreath?
Victor Dogbreath, or Dogreth (whittled down) sounds kinda neat, for example ![]() |
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#11 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,301
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Summary: an account of the naming of the Twins and kin, in which certain elements were derived not from Elvish roots but Beorian Atanic, including ros. But after a dense and very creative essay, he chucked it all because of the existence of Cair Andros and its translation "ship of long-foam" in print. But whoa thar, podner! Tolkien of all people knew that languages change, throw off dialects and borrow words (English mugs other languages and rifles their pockets for loose vocabulary). So why not postulate a demotic Gondorian Sindarin, much corrupted/dialecticized from the formal Sindarin of Rivendell? One which necessarily had absorbed into itself stray Edainic/Numenorean elements? After all, it's a datum that Gondor had had no contact with Elves for many generations. (There is the objection that Sindarin in Gondor occupied a space akin to Latin in OTL, a learned book-language and therefore unchanging- except that ain't the case. Medieval Latin is a hell of a long way from the tongue of Cicero.) Tolkien, late, made another change I similarly find unnecessary, and rather at odds with LR- his decision that the Silvan Elves didn't speak Nandorin, just accented Sindarin. Not buying it.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#12 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 433
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The experience as we age impacts tones heard as we read and I'm repeatedly surprised each time it happens. Tolkien's heart and its depth comes across when I read the words. His wisdom about death, quailing hearts and broken words, with lies of conceit from self-deceivers something that comes up for me. And this: "And Sauron was deceived, even unto himself", which we are told, when Eonwe does not heed Sauron's obeisance, as he pleaded for Clemency. I wonder where Elrond was when Sauron was pleading, and what dread he knew as the Quest departed.
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A call to my lost pals. Dine, Orcy_The_Green_Wonder, Droga, Lady Rolindin. Gellion, Thasis, Tenzhi. I was Silmarien Aldalome. Candlekeep. WotC. Can anyone help? |
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