Missing Fingers

[Rhudladion]

Anyone find it interesting that the only way the ring is ever forced from a bearer is by cutting off the finger of the bearer? It happens to Sauron and Frodo, but I cannot think of any other bearer that has the ring forced from him. I just thought it was kind-of neat, and a great example of the power of the ring to capture its possessor.

[Balefalathiel]

That's true... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Mat_Heathertoes]

The last of the Seven, the ring of Thrain II, was removed from him in the pits of Dol Goldur but nowhere does it state the manner of which it was taken except that he had been subjected to torture (UT p435 - The Quest of Erebor).

Ahhh.... I was wondering about this.
Earlier in the book Gandalf tells Frodo that he could not force the ring from Frodo; In Fact,it would break his mind were he to do so. However at the climax when Frodo just declares the ring to be his own,it is forced from him by Gollum.Especially now,wouldnt this have some effect on his mind?

[Enedhil]

If Gollum hadn't been there (i.e., if sam had killed him?) and bit the ring off Frodo...would Sam have intervened? If reason, force or violence didn't work, would Sam have sacrificed Frodo to save Middle Earth? (i.e. tossing frodo into Mt Doom...!!!) [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Rosa Underhill]

If Sam had had to push Frodo into the Cracks, he would have gone with him, I've no doubt about that. And he likely might have if he had needed to.

There was a residual effect on Frodo from having the Ring taken from him by Gollum. He states often in the ensuing years after the War of the Ring that he is wounded. And he gets sick on the anniversary of the destruction of the Ring. He's never the same hobbit after this ordeal, that's why he had to go to the Grey Havens; he would never be healed otherwise.

[Joy]

Actually, he is sick on the aniversary of Weathertop and Shelob's attack. I didn't see the place where it said that he was sick on the aniversary of the Ring being destroyed.

[Tigerlily Gamgee]

I think he gets sick on the anniversary of both - if I remember correctly.
The end of the book is so sad. I hated that he had to leave Hobbiton!

[Joy]

The ring is destroyed on March 25 3019 or 1419 SR. Frodo was attacked on Weathertop on Oct 6, 3018 and attacked by Shelob on March 13 3019. It stayes in tha app. that on Oct 6 they cross the Ford of Bruinen; Frodo feels the first return of pain. It states later that on March 13, 3020 Frodo is taken ill (on the aniversary of his poisioning by Shelob.) Again on Oct 6, 3020 it states that Frodo is ill again. On March 13, 3021, Frodo is ill again. On Sept 29,3021 Frodo and Bilbo depart for the Grey Havens.

I know this is totally off subject , but I was reading over the last chapter of RotK again (The Grey Havens). Did anyone else find the fact that Frodo left rather sad? I know I sure did...

[mark12_30]

>> Did anyone else find the fact that Frodo left rather sad?

Ummmm... yeah, devastating.

After the long trip home, Frodo confides to Gandalf, "I have been wounded by knife, sting, tooth, and a long burden. Where will I find rest?"

Gandalf does not answer.

The implication is... not in the Shire. And after all he goes through to save the Shire, that (to me) is gutwrenching.

[mark12_30]

I forgot to add that since Frodo lists those four items-- knife, sting, tooth (GOllum's attack at Orodruin) and the long burden, I think Frodo counts the event as a wound whether or not he is sick on just the anniversary of it. I suspect that it burdens him daily, not jsjt once a year. Otherwise, if he were only "sick" and weary twice a year, could he not stick it out, and stay with Sam?

But-- thinking back to Rivendell:
Gloin: "You were very fond of Bilbo, were you not?"
"Yes," answered Frodo. "I would rather see him than all the towers and palaces in the world."

Perhaps he would have gone with Bilbo anyway, even if the pain had been less. How grim to have to choose between two close friends. And how hard it was on poor Sam.

Whatever Iluvatar wants; but it is hard, sometimes.

[Elven-Maiden]

I cried when RotK ended. It was such a perfect, powerful ending.... *sob* I'm so glad that Gollum was able to destroy the Ring, b/c I would've hated to see Sam have to do it. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I had really hoped though, that Gollum would've turned good in the end. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Oh well!, I guess Tolkien knew best.

[Rosa Underhill]

You're right, I did get the anniversaries when Frodo gets sick wrong. But regardless, he was changed by the Ring. It didn't destroy him utterly, but it left him empty inside, wounded in spirit. I think it said something about it somewhere in RotK.

And seeing Frodo leave for the Grey Havens was terribly sad. But he had to go; he would have had no peace in the Shire. I think that hurt him the most because he knew that he couldn't be happy in his homeland anymore.

[Gayalondiel]

Originally posted by Elven-Maiden:
<STRONG>I had really hoped though, that Gollum would've turned good in the end. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Oh well!, I guess Tolkien knew best.</STRONG>

I don't think Gollum could have turned good. He was so bound up by the power of the ring that, much like sauron, he would probably have died even if he'd been elsewhere when it was destroyed. And even if he had turned good, he'd probably have died anyway. I don't imagine many people, try as they might, would be able to accept him into their lives. And you can't leave loose threads like that at the end of a book... killing him off was really the only way to give Gollum any sense of peace. Look at it this way, now he's free from the power of the ring. And presumably, If he was once from a hobbit-like race, and hobbits die like men, he's gone on to a far better place. (Aww) [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Joy]

Oh, the ring definatly had a lasting affect of Frodo. I think that by destroying the ring he had the guilt of knowing that he had practically destroyed the Elves, for all the power of the Elven Rings had their power bound up in the One Ring. With it being destroyed, the other rings lost their power and the Elves faded.

There were many other adverse effects of the ring upon Frodo, but I think that they have been covered here.

Just my two pennies worth. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Yeha I guess that makes sense...him being ill on those anniversaries..I neverlooked it in that light before.
I was really sad at the end of the bok too,even though everything worked out good.It was so sad for the elves to go away!And doesnt it say somewhere in the end of the boook that becaues sam was a ring bearer too he would one day follow them later on.I thought so ,but I dont have my book with me right now so maybe I m wrong.

As some people here said, Sam probably followed Frodo after he went over the sea. I believe in the appendices it says that Sam only goes after Rose has died, which I'd imagine is probably quite a while later. If Hobbits live out their usual life span in wherever they go after the Grey Havens (forgot the name, oops), and since Frodo was quite a bit older than Sam, then wouldn't Frodo be dead by the time Sam went?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally posted by Rowena:
<STRONG>As some people here said, Sam probably followed Frodo after he went over the sea. I believe in the appendices it says that Sam only goes after Rose has died, which I'd imagine is probably quite a while later. If Hobbits live out their usual life span in wherever they go after the Grey Havens (forgot the name, oops), and since Frodo was quite a bit older than Sam, then wouldn't Frodo be dead by the time Sam went?</STRONG>

Now THERE'S a puzzle! Lessee, Frodo is born in T.A. 2968. In 3021, Bilbo (born in 2890) passes the Old Took, age 131. In 1482, Shire Reckoning, when Sam went over-sea, Frodo would be 113 years old (I think; trying to get it all straight between the end of T.A. and beginning of F.A. and the Shire Reckoning, to boot, is mind wrenching at 10:30 p.m. Granted, Frodo did not have the Ring as long as Bilbo did, but the intensity of his possession for the Quest probably makes up for it. Besides, who knows how the airs of Tol Eressea might increase the longevity of humans and hobbits?

[littlemanpoet]

Originally posted by Rhudladion:
<STRONG>Anyone find it interesting that the only way the ring is ever forced from a bearer is by cutting off the finger of the bearer? </STRONG>

I don't know if this really amounts to an exception, but Isildur is killed and the Ring slips off his finger, having a will of its own. Forced? Maybe not, but he loses it and dies into the bargain.

Well in Saurons case it really was forced from him when Isildur cut off his finger. The ring would hardly have "left" Sauron especially as he was the maker. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Birdland]

Originally posted by Rowena:
<STRONG>If Hobbits live out their usual life span in wherever they go after the Grey Havens (forgot the name, oops), and since Frodo was quite a bit older than Sam, then wouldn't Frodo be dead by the time Sam went?</STRONG>

Since Frodo stopped aging when he assumed the burden of the ring (at the age of 33), I guess you could add about 20 years to his natural lifespan. That's how Bilbo managed to surpass the Old Took in age.

Sam was born in 1380 S.R. and was 38 when the Fellowship' journey took place. Since Frodo stopped aging at the age of 33, with the help of the ring he was actually five years "younger" then Sam at the start of the journey!

So there's a good chance that Frodo may have still been alive when Sam set sail from the Havens.

(Hmmmm. Skip the Botox injections. I'm gettin' me a Ring!)

[Frodo Baggins]

Duh!!! Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo all went to the Blessed lands. No one dies there. Frodo and Bilbo were still alive when Sam came.
Sam tossing Frodo into Mt.Doom?? I think he would have gone with him.

[Nar]

Mortals do die, even in the blessed lands, because dying and going beyond the circles of middle earth is their gift from Illuvatar and no one can take it away, not even Gandalf. Not even all the assembled Valar! However, mortals in the blessed lands can choose the moment of their death, much as Aragorn does in the Tale of Arwen and Aragorn -- and I think in the blessed lands, they would age even more slowly than Aragorn does. So Frodo would have definitely waited for Sam and spent time with his friend, as much time as they needed, before going on. I think Bilbo would have already gone on before Sam arrived. I visualize Frodo being with Bilbo as he lies down to sleep, missing him for a while, and then-- here comes Sam down the gangplank off the last ship! It would have been a very good moment.

[Child of the 7th Age]

This wasn't the original question asked, but this thread seems to have veered off to Grey Havens so here goes....

All mortals do die in the Blessed Lands, but they are allowed to chose the place and time they will take that step. This is very similar to the scene you have with Aragorn dying in the Appendix while Arwen is at his side weeping. Frodo seems to know that Sam will come later so surely he will wait for him and the two will probably move on together to the circles beyond the earth.

Many, many readers see Frodo's leaving for Elvenhome as an extremely sad thing, born solely out of grief and despair. I guess I view things a bit differently. Certainly, the need for healing, both physical and spiritual, was the immediate catalyst for leaving, but I believe other things were also involved.

Even before the quest, Frodo would roam the Shire at night looking for Elves. And, again, even before his departure, he was identified as an Elf-friend. All through the book, there are indications Frodo is longing for something which goes beyond the life of the Shire. His dream at Tom's house and his later comments in Rivendell about yearning for the Sea are just two examples. I was reading today in Swan's The Road goes EverOn. Tolkien clearly says in his notes that the last two lines of Galadriel's Lament as the Fellowhip leaves Lorien were supposed to be directed specifically at Frodo. (That was news to me.) This is where she says "May you reach Valinor" (not that he makes it all the way there). And this is in the early part of the book, long before any question of healing or grief arises. Even in Tolkien's earliest drafts of the Grey Havens chapters, when Frodo was still called Bingo, the author states that Bingo will withdraw to a small hut on the edge of Hobbiton and soon leave for the West. It's just part of who he is.

I feel that a great deal of the longing for the West is intrinsic in Frodo's character. His eyes shines with elf-glow that Merrygold can see, and Faraamir later states that he looks a bit Elven. Sometimes I think it's that Fallohide strain with its elfish leanings. (I even have suspicions about an Avari ancestor in the Vales of Anduin, but who's to say?) Whatever the case, Frodo has outgrown the Shire.

And,what is more, there is a recognition, that great accomplishments require great sacrifice. Yes, it is sad to see Frodo depart the Shire. But he and Sam have different paths to follow. My bet is that, not only did Frodo find more healing in the West than would have been true in the Shire, but he probably grew and learned in ways we simply can't imagine. And he had Bilbo by his side, at least for a little while. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[JenFramp]

sniff..this thread is depressing!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Sniff..this thread is depressing!

No, not depressing. But it's just like life itself, a strange mixture of joy and sorrow.

[Cimmerian]

Bandits and Robbers often cut off their victims' fingers if the precious rings don't come off quick. They also yank off necklaces and earings leaving deep scars.

[Arwen Imladris]

Eww, gross! Note to self, to not ever be anywhere near a bandit of Robber! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Keeper-of-Vilya]

I know I found Frodo's leaving the shire very sad...

Like he said - sometimes you have to give up what you value so others can have it... or some thing to that effect... Powerful !

[Banazîr]

"forgot to add that since Frodo lists those four items-- knife, sting, tooth (GOllum's attack at Orodruin) and the long burden, I think Frodo counts the event as a wound whether or not he is sick on just the anniversary of it. I suspect that it burdens him daily, not jsjt once a year

Actually you are completly right! Frodo saw himself as a broken failure daily, and of course he doesn't feel as a broken failure because he was stabbed at weathertop, nor because he was stung by Shelob, but because he didn't cast the ring into the fire by a voluntary act, using the last strength left to him(I believe he was totally out of that at this moment and that's where he needed some).
"he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it"(from the Letters)

And to me, that is what is the most devastating; he feels "guilty" for what he have done when he shouldn't, and couldn't help himself but sometimes desiring it(like it is said in the letters of JRRT)after the destruction.
poor Frodo

[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: Banazîr ]

[piosenniel]

Thought I'd share this with you:
http://home.mn.rr.com/karynmilos/ess...eeplyhurt.html

an interesting psychological analysis of why Frodo was compelled to leave ME and go West

[Banazîr]

After reading this article, something hit me in the face that I had never noticed before: Frodo CHOSE to go to the UL. He was allowed to go and only if he desired it.
In fact it means that he still went even if he knew that Sam was going to stay in The shire, indeed, in choosing this path, he sorta abandonned the presence of Sam ....and that makes me wonder...

[piosenniel]

Banazir - it makes you wonder . . .?