The unknowns of middle-earth.

[Paradus]

Greetings.

As we all know when Aman was seperated from Ea the whole of Middle-earth was geographically changed. We know of the Western section of middle-earth and its inhabitants but I've always wondered on the uncharted sections and what creatures, and civilisations may lurk there.

From the west we have:

Civilisations (Based from before the war of the ring)

-Gondor: Men
-Rohan: Horselords
-Umbra: Pirates
-Harad: African based cultures
-Shire: Hobbits
-Mordor: Orcs/Trolls
-Rhun: Easterlings
-Grey Havens/Lorien/Rivendell: Elves
-Fangorn: Ents
-Moria: Orcs/Trolls
-Mirkwood: Great spiders
-Mountain ranges: Dwarves
-Dunland: Wild men
-Arnor: Dunedain
-Isengard: Orcs

Other races/creatures: Dragons, Balrog/s, Oliphants, Wights and spirits.

So what do you think could be lurking out in the unknown areas or M-E.

-Different creatures?
-Other civilisations?

cheers.

[Rumil]

Hi Paradus,

not a lot is known about the East, here are a few snippets I can remember offhand,

There should be four dwarven civilizations in the red and yellow mountains that are off the map to the East, based on the story of the awakening of the dwarves. Some of them (but few) were apparently allied to Sauron in the Second Age but all sent contingents to help out in the war of the Dwarves and Orcs.

Dorwinion is near the Sea of Rhun, presumably human-run and makes the wine that the wood-elves prized.

Khand is the country just South-East of Mordor - inhabited by humans, who sent a contingent to fight for Sauron at the Pelennor Fields, but nothing much else is known.

The blue wizards went to the East (and Saruman for a bit) but little is known of their activities, perhaps starting cults or opposing Sauron.

As well as Umbar there are probably cities founded by the Numenoreans further to the South - these are presumably inhabited by mixtures of Haradrim and the remnants of the 'King's Men' of Numenor.

As for the elves, there might be Avari wandering around almost anywhere, but iirc Cuivenen has gone.

In JRRT's early writings there are mentions of pygmies and ogres, maybe they are off the map somewhere. Bilbo mentioned wild were-worms in the last desert in the east of the east, but undoubtendly not from personal experience!

[Inziladun]

Don't forget the Snowmen of Forochel north of the Shire. They should count as a "civilisation'.

[Rumil]

Good point Inzil,

though maybe 'culture' rather than civilisation as that word implies cities, minor quibble, sorry!

Oh, and the fishermen and hunters of Enedwaith, and the Druedain around the White Mountains, the Beornings and men of Dale and Esgaroth.

[Galadriel55]

What about Stone-Giants in the Misty Mountains?
And I think that Ents of Fangorn (and Entwives???) should be counted as a civilizationas well.
As for the unknown areas of ME, I'd say dwarves, men, and whatever is left of the Avari. Perhaps there are also trolls and/or orcs there.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

What about Stone-Giants in the Misty Mountains?

Meh, I don't put a lot of faith in the stone-giants even existing. There's only that one mention in The Hobbit that has them living in the Misty Mountains. Since those mountains were basically the "gateway of the west" in ME, and very heavily travelled, it seems odd that only Bilbo, in all the available histories, ever spoke of them. I think Bilbo just slipped that into the story to spice up the early bits. That, or he wrote that chapter after just emptying the beer-barrel in the cellar.

[alatar]

Note that 'giant' is a relative term. Big trollmen?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Note that 'giant' is a relative term. Big trollmen?

Hm. Maybe. Or perhaps the results of incredible cross-breeding between Men and Ents? So that's what happened to the Entwives!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Paradus

So what do you think could be lurking out in the unknown areas or M-E.

-Different creatures?
-Other civilisations?

Why no civilizations *under* the waves? Not talking fish, but something on the order of the elves.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

The history of the four dwarf houses (other then Durin's folk)
would be interesting. The Ironfists, Stiffbeards, Blacklocks, and Stonefoots.
Since they were, I believe, in the Far East (and South?) and
sent contingents to the War of the Dwarves and Orcs---but
were also, I believe, somewhat represented among the bad
guys at times.

And how did the Blue Wizards effect the civilizations they visited.
Speculation in Wikipedia:

Alatar was the second wizard to be chosen, at the suggestion of the Vala Oromë who had the most knowledge of the eastern lands. Pallando was then chosen by Alatar to accompany him as a friend. In an earlier draft Tolkien had associated Pallando with the Valar Mandos and Nienna, but he then changed this to also associate Pallando with Oromë. In a letter written at the same time Tolkien also wrote about their role:

I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south, .... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
However, some of this changes in a text written in the last year or two of Tolkien's life (published in The Peoples of Middle-earth) of 1968. They are said to have arrived not in the Third Age, but in the Second, around the year 1600, the time of the Forging of the One Ring. Their mission was to travel to the east and weaken the forces of Sauron. And it is here said that the Wizards far from failed; rather, they had a pivotal role in the victories of the West at the end of both the Second and the Third Ages. At the same time, Tolkien considered the possibility that Glorfindel arrived back in Middle-earth along with the Blue Wizards. On this later, more positive interpretation, the Blue Wizards may have been as successful as Gandalf, just located in a different theatre beyond the borders of the map in The Lord of the Rings.

[Galin]

But Wikipedia forgets to mention that on the back of the same page that says two of the Wizards had great success in the Second Age...

... is a more legible note that implies all of the wizards came at the same time (possibly Tolkien remembering Appendix B?).

And Wikipedia 'forgets' to mention that the two aren't blue too

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Galin

But Wikipedia forgets to mention that on the back of the same page that says two of the Wizards had great success in the Second Age...

I thought Istari only came to ME in the 3rd age...
And the Blue wizards (apparantly) had great success in the East, reducing the amount of troops sent to help Mordor.