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Old 09-09-2013, 01:58 AM   #1
PaigeStormblood
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Can Hobbits and Men learn Elf/Dwarf art and craft?

Hey everyone I've been thinking if the art of the elves (or as Hobbits would call it elf magic) be teach able to a hobbit or man? For example when Sam was given the Elf Rope do you think if Sam so desired he could learn the art of crafting it himself?

The same with Dwarf runes are they purely a skill only obtainable by dwarves or can other races learn to utilize and craft runes as well?
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Old 09-09-2013, 03:02 AM   #2
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I think the elf's response to Sam showed that he could learn however whether he could get to a comparable skill level given the relatively small window of opportunity for mortals compared to elves who while they mature physically slower than mortals, gain mastery of their bodies quicker and do not deteriorate with age. Mortals absorb information easier in youth but skills improve with practice but their bodies age and may lose strength or capacity. So a mortal might just not be able to get the skill due to time. Though rope might be relatively straightforward. The other factor is materials. It maybe that hithlain, like the special corn used for lembas would only grow in Elvish lands so that they couldn't make true elvish rope only use the technology with available materials like methode champagnoise compared to true champagne. I don't know if more information is given on hithlain outside LOTR.
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:50 AM   #3
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Elves have inborn abilities as sub-creators where they can do things on a scale that Men can't match. Like when Lśthien Tinśviel wove that cloak out of her hair when her father had her under house arrest.
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:31 AM   #4
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But that was actual magic, and Luthien, much as I detest her, is not a typical elf: her mother was a Maia and her name meant Enchantress. Tolkien's names of major characters tend to be factual rather than aspirational.. I think elves would regard Luthien's shapeshifting etc as magic, for want of a better word whereaa the Loriennelves don't see their rope in that light. It is just a higher t3chnology. For example I have just seen the trailer of the film Rush. The flame retardent materials that have come in since Nikki Lauda's horrific injuries would have seemed magical not many years earlier.
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:38 AM   #5
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The Dwarf Runes were actually Elvish in origin and were devised by Daeron of Doriath. The Dwarves leanr the craft and took them over the mountains into Eriador during the first age. Men could indeed learn to use runes and have used them before in the storys, The men of Brethil wrote on Turins grave in runes of Doriath.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:01 AM   #6
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One must assume that, as mortals, Dwarf-lore was not as inaccessible to Men as the heights of Elf-lore might have been, and Men and Dwarves maintained friendship even when Men and Elves became estranged. The toy-market of Dale was the wonder of the North - were these 'magical' toys purely of Dwarven construction? The Men of Dale in particular payed well for their sons to be apprenticed to Dwarves, so there must be something in that regard. I think Dwarven secrets ('inner names', their secret alphabet of pictograms etc) were more a matter of culture, whereas the inaccessibility of Elf lore was more a question of time.
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Old 09-09-2013, 01:27 PM   #7
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I think elves would regard Luthien's shapeshifting etc as magic, for want of a better word whereaa the Loriennelves don't see their rope in that light. It is just a higher t3chnology. For example I have just seen the trailer of the film Rush. The flame retardent materials that have come in since Nikki Lauda's horrific injuries would have seemed magical not many years earlier.
Hmm, I am not sure if the use of expression "higher technology" is good here. Since "technology" in Middle-Earth, in the strict sense of the word, of course means real inventions, which are often unpleasant in nature (Saruman's devices or reputed torture devices and weapons devised by goblins). Although the word "technology" would be appropriate, I agree, in certain way in relation to the First-Age craft such as the Silmarils or the Noldo-lanterns, or even the Palantķri, which seemed to be depending on "technology" which was later forgotten or unable to recreate for lack of resources (in the case of Silmarils). But when it comes to Elven cloaks, Galadriel's Mirror, or other similar things, I think somehow we shift into the realm of "magic" in the sense of "art". "Art" is something "natural" rather than "invented" - or maybe not "natural" but "inborn", a virtue one possesses. And the "Elven Art" was, like Belegorn had correctly mentioned, reserved to the Elves. Humans are simply not born with it, they cannot alter their surroundings the way Elves do. Or so I would say.

And as for Lśthien, hers would be - if it came from the Maia heritage, which I am not at all certain about - simply a "higher level of Art" for the Elves, just like the Ainur in general perform higher form of Art than the Elves (in fact, the highest - the Music itself! Can there be a higher form of Art?). As long as it stays that way, it is Art. (Evil human sorcerers, and so on, such as the Mouth of Sauron or the Witch-King, of course performed sorcery, and Galadriel speaks quite clearly to Sam about the difference between "elven magic" and the enemy's lies and sorcery. But that's a completely different topic.)

So in my opinion, to get back to the Elven "magical tools", we have two different things: art of technology, such as the Silmarils or Palantķri, which Men simply could not make because they did not have the time in their lifetime to invent something like that - that has been mentioned earlier. But "Elven magic" which Sam wished to see so much (and which we could find, I imagine, in the Elven cloaks and possibly the Elven ropes), that is beyond human limits as well, but for different reason - simply because Elves are different from Men. The point about "sub-creators" by Belegorn was very correct, in my opinion.

As for Dwarves, I think their art goes closer to "secret recipes". I can imagine humans being able to figure it out (or reproduce it if they had been told about it - maybe that was what took place at some point in Dale, in a few rare cases?), but again, they would lack time, but also resources, patience, and the depth of the knowledge in the beginning. "Average" Men, I would imagine, weren't "made" for Dwarven way of thinking. It was, after all, rather "aulėan".
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Old 09-09-2013, 02:46 PM   #8
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Technology means the strudy of craft, skill or art. I don't see that it is inappropriate.

I don't think we know wnough about the manufacture of elf cloaks to say they are beyond reach of mortals., in fact the evidence is rather the cotrary. The elf says they could have taught him much but not in the few seconds they had before boarding the boats. There are a limited number of ways that even an elf can twist a fibre. Similarly we know that the cloaks were woven by Galadriel and her maidens. Weaving is more complex than rope making and mayb some of the virtue is in he way it is woven but I don't see indication that other races with the same equipment couldn't reproduce it albeit less proficiently. These seem to be things that require materials, method and skill not magic even if they seem magical.

There are things that are the work of specific individuals wjich probably could not be rellicated...even Feanor could not remake the silmarils. The Mirror of Galadriel sEems quite specific to her, quite possibly a manifestation of her innate power enhanced by wielding the ring of water. It seems unlikely that just anyone elf or no could pour water into the basin and create the mirror. That is beyond skill.


I don't see how saying elves are sub creators is a conclusive argument. It seems meaningless ..how are elves sub creators in a way that excludes other races?
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Old 09-11-2013, 01:31 AM   #9
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how are elves sub creators in a way that excludes other races?
Elves are "the representatives of sub-creation par excellence" [Letter #130] Lśthien was part Elda and part Maia and Tolkien states that Eru, "gave special 'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings: that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be given the reality of Creation." [Letter #153] Elvish "'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence)" [Letter #130]
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Old 09-11-2013, 05:42 AM   #10
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But that surely refers to specific exceptional individuals is already identified: Luthien, Feanor, Celebrimbor, Galadriel, maybe others. It is a huge step to extrapolate that because these exceptional elves were able to make one off remarkable things such as the Silmarilli, Palantiri, the Elessars, -which could not be repeated in some cases even by themselves,that mortals would be unable to learn the humbler crafts of elves. Which was the actual question.

We know that dwarves in general can rival the Noldor in smithying and stonework, the Numenoreans crafted blades that could worst the Witch King but you are saying that a hobbit would be unable to make silvan rope because he couldn't make a Silmaril. Even though the silvan elf on the ground seems to think it possible. He doesn't say " our ropemakers serve a thousand year apprenticeship to learn the secrets so you just wouldn't live long enough" , it is only because he us literally leaving that minute that is the problem.

Sculpture may well have reached its peak in renaissance Florence but while only Michelangelo couldcraft David, any competent modern mason can dress a stone well enough for practical purposes.
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Old 09-11-2013, 03:11 PM   #11
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Agreed in many ways, but at least the first and the last thing Belegorn quoted refers to Elves in general. It reflects also well what Tolkien has written in "On Fairy-Stories" - even though one could of course put into question whether when he speaks about "Elves" in there, he means the same Elves as those in Middle-Earth, I would say that he does, because after all, Elves were one of his major obsessions and so it is, I believe, justified to imagine his portrayal of Elves, in whichever of his works, to reflect in one way or another his general understanding of the Elves.

Elves were supposed to represent just that: the race which is, somehow, connected essentially to the fabric of fantasy, or the fantasy world, and is capable of making it "real", whereas human mind makes such changes only "in one's mind". Of course, the Elves (in Arda) pay for it by being bound to the world, whereas human spirits are leaving Arda after death (for more details, see Athrabeth in HoME). It is a very complicated subject, but essentially I believe it is perfectly right to say that Tolkien was not afraid to show that Elves could essentially manipulate (such an ugly word - read as "enhance with beauty" etc.) the reality of Middle-Earth, since it is, after all, a fantasy world (while at the same time being presented as "real" - but at least in relation to the Elves it is, I believe, all right to regard it as "fantasy"). So in other words,

I however now see and I agree that we can't probably say what exactly is still craft available to Men and what is solely Elven domain - such as, whether a Man could theoretically be able to craft an Elven-rope but not an Elven-cloak (or vice versa) and so on. Nonetheless, even though we can't probably tell where exactly the line is, I believe it is right to claim that there was a kind of special Art which was specific to Elves as Elves (and not to Fėanor because he was Fėanor, or to Fėanor because he happened to be in Valinor, or to Lśthien because she was special, or to Galadriel because she had the Ring etc).

Speaking of Rings, remember what Gandalf told to Frodo - that the Rings of Power were "too dangerous for mortals", implying that it is nothing the Men (or Hobbits) should meddle with, of course first, because it is dangerous, but I also believe that it implies that such kind of stuff is exactly not for them. (And maybe it is dangerous also because it is not for them. Again, you can see the same themes in "On Fairy-Stories", if you look at them from that perspective.) The same idea again being present, I believe, in the Smith of Wootton Major, where he is not supposed to keep the star which allows him to travel to Faėrie - simply: anything, which directly relates to Fantasy, can be at most "borrowed" by Men, but to make permanent, real connection to Fantasy, to alter it "in flesh" is for Elves only. So even in Middle-Earth, Men do not, or should not have the power to alter things "magically", in another way than to make a sword out of iron or a house out of wood. But to make a glowing tree or a talking sword should basically be beyond human reach. Or that's how I would see it, hope it is understandable what I wanted to convey, even though I was sort of jumping between two perspectives here. But basically it all points to Tolkien's understanding of the Elves and Elven "craft": they have keys to something to which the Men will never have full access.
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:23 PM   #12
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The first isn't really pertinent to the question since neither ropemaking nor ordinary writing are sub-creation in the sense that Tolkien uses it, the last is relevant but it is relatve not absolute. He says they can do things better and more easily than mortals. It is a continuum not a Venn diagram excluding mortals. But because elves do everything easier and some things at a higher level it doesn't mean everything every elf does is at a level that cannot be matched by mortals.


Now I am happy to concede that some things are likely to be only achievable by elves but I think they are likely to be at a higher level than rope .. if not as high as the items previously cited. A fairly likely example would be Gondolin blades. The Lorien elf said they put the thought of all that the love in to the things that they make and the flip side of that might be that their hatred of orcs et alia is also chanelled.

Where elves really can be regarded as subcreators is in say the ability of elf bards to conjure visions of their subjects.
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