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Old 05-30-2003, 08:31 PM   #1
TealDude4
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Sting I don't believe this

I weas just searching on the net, and I found this site that says Harry Potter and LOTR are evil.

Now, I am a very religious person, and I think HP is wrong(though I don't hate people who read it), but LOTR evil?!?

What is your opinion of the webmaster's opinions, and what do you think makes him think that LOTR is evil?

Personally, I don't think he has researched or even read a chapter of HP or LOTR.
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Old 05-30-2003, 08:44 PM   #2
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HP & LOTR are quite different. While J.K. Rowling researched 'black magic' stuff to insert into her books, Tolkien simply wrote from his Christian faith. I don't think that you can consider LOTR evil, unless you have a major thing against wizards ( who are not the same as sorcerers )... [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]
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Old 05-30-2003, 08:46 PM   #3
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For goodness sake, isn't there enough evil actually occurring in the world, without reading it into perfectly harmless books? Why can't these people devote their energies into addressing the tangible wrongs that are happening here and now, rather than making wholly misguided attempts to brand anything that they don't agree with, or which doesn't conveniently fit into their own comfortable little belief system, as evil?

Child molesters are evil. Brutal dictators are evil. Serial killers are evil. JRRT and JKR are not evil.

Mind you, this loony is right in one rather twisted way. If you think that the HP books are encouraging people into the ways of Satan, then the logical extension of that argument is that JRRT's works are too. The problem is that his arguments aren't logical, or even remotely rational.

[img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Edit:

Quote:
HP & LOTR are quite different ... I don't think that you can consider LOTR evil, unless you have a major thing against wizards.
Harry Potter and his chums were wizards. Gandalf was a wizard. Both used spells.

From The Hobbit, Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire:

Quote:
But, of course, Gandalf had made a special study of bewitchments with fire and lights (even the hobbit had never forgotten the magic fireworks at Old Took's midsummer-eve parties, as you remember).
[ May 30, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]
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Old 05-30-2003, 09:21 PM   #4
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Quote:
Children have been targeted to be brainwashed by the occult.
So, now that we have read the article, what am I supposed to say? "Ah, thank you for this source of true enlightenment"? [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]
Quote:
There is no such thing as a good witch, a good wizard, or good spells. All occultism is an abomination to God!
This person seems a bit onesided to me...
Quote:
Parents do not care that Harry Potter is Satanic occultism.
Er... I feel like this person is highly religious (smart, no? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]), which is fine, but believes far too much that everybody should believe as he does...
Quote:
The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people.
Too much to say here. I'll just keep it down to two things. a. so if somebody is interested in magic, they're heretics? Hmm. b. this dude seems to be assuming that all people of any worth in the world are Christian. I don't feel too 'included' in here now...
Quote:
As you can see there is no room for debate.
This is a comment that I feel will not be accepted by most people... debate is life, whether it is religious or not. I think, at least.
Quote:
If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN!
Wow, that's a bit over the edge, in my opinion. I am not a Christian, but would certainly not consider myself an "enemy of God", and the writer should remember that not all of us believe in Heaven and Hell...
Quote:
If you really love the Lord then clean out your house from all the evil things of the devil. Get together all the Harry Potter books, Lord of the Rings, all evil games (ouji boards etc), Satanic rock music. Then, once collected, destroy all this evil material.
Extreme measures, no? Whoever said Ouijia or rock were evil, for that matter?

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[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]
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Old 05-30-2003, 09:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
... and the writer should remember that not all of us believe in Heaven and Hell...
Impossible. He's been conditioned not to believe such "heretical" things. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

(I've calmed down about it now. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )
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Old 05-30-2003, 09:55 PM   #6
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Sting

Wow these people are religious to the extreme! Im a christain myself and my mother and i both agree that harry potter is revolved around witchcraft. But lotr..well she doesnt like the idea of magic and wizards but i try to explaian that JRRT WAS a christain. The story has alot of christain ideas in it. And that Gandalf wasnt a wizard like in harry potter. He is an Istari..like an angelic being as i once heard them being referred.

Okay thats my 2 cents...please dont attack me! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 05-30-2003, 10:40 PM   #7
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Sting

As I strongly disagree with everything the writer Alan Yusko has to say, I am going to attempt to put up a fair argument here:

Quote:
There is no such thing as a good witch, a good wizard, or good spells.
-During the Middle Ages, witches were referred as local wise women who used herbs to treat illnesses, made amulets to ward off evil spirits, and practiced divination to locate lost property or identify criminals.
-Wizards were known to find lost objects or missing persons, detect criminals, cure illnesses, tell fortunes, and make charms or amulets to ward off natural or supernatural harm.
-It seems to me that neither types of these "white" witches or wizards were evil.
-Also, much of the stories of magic, spells, witchcraft, etc. originated from myths from ancient Greece, before the rise of Christianity.

(Source: The Sorcerer's Companion by Allan Zola Kronzek and Elizabeth Kronzek)
Quote:
Of course the Bible is forbidden in schools but the wizard, Harry Potter is acceptable.
This is due to the variety of religions that exist in different countries, especially the United States. Harry Potter displays no specific religion (aside from Christmas), so people of all religions may enjoy the books. Though, there are some schools that ban HP and LOTR.
Quote:
The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people.
Hearing this makes me rather angry. Tolkien did use wizardry and magic in his books, but not as much as this person seems to think. Tolkien wrote about good overcoming evil. And I don't see what is wrong with that since that is pretty much what the Bible is about. But Tolkien is definitely a Christian and the writer has no right to say that he is not.
Quote:
By choosing to accept the occult a person is choosing to be enemies with God and friends with the devil!
Oooh, how I hate hasty generalization. I wonder where this person got the idea that we are all friends with the devil, especially when the books are about good overcoming evil. I think LOTR has brought some people closer to God rather than closer to Satan. Sauron is depicted as evil for a reason.
Quote:
Ten short years ago the rejection of the occult was a non-issue. Christians knew that the occult was evil.
I'm sure there were plenty of Christians who enjoyed reading LOTR and other fantasy novels before 1993. Enough said.
Quote:
This great move toward acceptance of the occult is part of the last days falling away or the great apostasy. People are growing distant to God and the Bible. Many are losing their discernment about the evils and dangers of the occult. Before the antichrist rises to power there will be a great falling away and rejection of God and the Bible. Many people will reach the stage of utter rejection of the things of God while they accept all the devil offers.
This is quite untrue. More people attend church than those who worship the devil. Yes, evil does happen, but there is always more than one to stop it from happening again. Despite what the news shows, I believe that more good occurs in the world than bad. Majority of people are too close to God to let the antchrist rise to power. And majority does rule.
Also, statistics have shown that teens have grown stronger in their Christian faith these last few years. Christian rock has grown popular. Church and prayer groups have been started in some schools. And most of all, teens have grown more active in their churches.
Quote:
If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! Stop kidding yourself! You love committing a sin that God considers an abomination. Therefore you do not belong to God and have aligned yourself with Satan.
Though I am not very religious, I am a Christian and a believer in God. No one has the right to tell anyone that they are not a Christian because of what they watch or read. This is an insult to my beliefs. I believe God accepts all those who believe and have faith in Him and ask for forgiveness when they have sinned. And I am sure He does not care what we read, watch, or play, just as long as we ourselves do not act against Him or the Ten Commandments.

Honestly, I think the writer of this article is just paranoid. Like most of those who believe that HP and LOTR are work of the devil, I doubt he has even picked up either of these books in his life. He makes assumptions from reviews and pictures he has seen from the movies. I pity people like this writer, because they do not know what they are missing out on. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
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Old 05-30-2003, 11:00 PM   #8
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Ah Brinniel I fully agree with you on this matter.

Quote:
Though I am not very religious, I am a Christian and a believer in God. No one has the right to tell anyone that they are not a Christian because of what they watch or read. This is an insult to my beliefs. I believe God accepts all those who believe and have faith in Him and ask for forgiveness when they have sinned.
I defiantely agree and no one had the right to say someone is a Christian or not. That is their own decision.
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Old 05-31-2003, 01:05 AM   #9
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I am a Christian myself and I love the Lord of the rings and to be honest I enjoyed Harry Potter to [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]. Many other Christians look at me strangely when I say I enjoyed Harry Potter but there are many Christians in my church that are LotR fans. Harry Potter, is magical and is witchcraft but it is just child’s play. Everyone has there own view on Harry Potter, some say it is evil some say it was excellent and some say it was a lovely fun movie (like I, but I am not crazy about it, I enjoyed it I’ll go see the next one but it’s not like my favourite like LotR is of course [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). I understand where some people get the concept that Harry Potter is evil, but LotR? LotR is set in a magical land that does not exist it takes you to a different world. There is nothing wrong with Elf’s and Hobbits, they are all fantasy creatures, unlike Harry Potter witchcraft does exist! So where do they get the concept that LotR is evil? In the blackriders? I doubt it! But my mom has always said, if you look hard enough one shall always find evil in everything…. You can decide for yourself whether that is true or not? In my opinion us humans still do not really know what is good and what is evil and we then point fingers and say “Oh that is evil” and we don’t really understand what evil and good truly are. Ok so we know a little like lying is evil… no wait it is not evil it is wrong!!!

Are good and evil absolute or are they relative to the conditions associated with time and place? Do conditions surrounding a particular situation make an act good and at another time make it evil? Does an act appear to be good in the overall perspective, but when torn away from its environment appear to be evil?

If good and evil are independent, do they have the same creator? Or is God the Creator of good alone? If so, who has created evil?

If the knowledge of good and evil is instinctive, there should be uniformity of thought between various nations, religions and groups; but there are vast differences among them in almost every aspect. What are the reasons?

Is the concept of good and evil imbued in the nature of man or has he been given divine guidance? If not, how are good and evil identified? If reason is the only guide, are there some criteria to determine what is good and what is evil?
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Old 05-31-2003, 01:17 AM   #10
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YES!! I agree with you Nil! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

To answer your question,


Quote:
who has created evil?
I think the Devil [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] created evil and he deso evil through people.

I don't agree with some thinbgs in HP, but it's OK if people read it, because it's their choice. If it doesn't appeal, don't read it.
If you find it appeals to you, go on, read it!! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But i still can't believe some people think LOTR is evil.....
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Old 05-31-2003, 02:48 AM   #11
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There is no way that LotR could be evil. Tolkien had a very strong belief in Christianity so there is no possible way that LotR is evil. Harry Potter is not black magic.
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Old 05-31-2003, 04:14 AM   #12
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Sting

Its going to kill me to say this, but harry Potter is not evil. As much as i hate it, I havent got the heart to say that it is truley evil, or even bad. However, I have not read these books, so I cannot have much of an argument for them.

I can see where he is coming from with lord of the rings, though. If you went searching for it, many things in LOTR hint at what he is calling witchcraft. Galadriels scrying pool is often thought of as pagan, and in his opinion, evil. Alot of LOTR is structured around the five elements of fire, water, earth, air and spirit. It is just as easy to see it as a pagan work as a christian work. However, the writer of this artical does not go into any of this, showing that he has no knowlage of the occult anyway.It also suggests that he has never read LORT or Harry potter.
Another pagan thing in LOTR is the personification of these elements. It clearly says that hobbits refer to the sun as she. When Tolkien says that the woods are listening, he is not using a metephore. But this does not make it evil.That would make evryone who absent mindedly said sorry to the chair the bumped into evil, everyone that refered to his/her car as a she.

I would just like to know, how is it that everything has to be pagan or chriastian. Does it not occure to this person that perhaps Tolkien and JK Rowling did not astop to wonder if their writing was supporting a certain religion? Perhaps they just wrote it. You could go back on any writing and find something christian and something pagan. He only sees it in these two books because they are in the public eye at the moment.

Knowing me, i just repeated what everyone esle said. Well, great minds think like if I did.

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: eleanor_niphredil ]
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Old 05-31-2003, 06:49 AM   #13
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LOTR is not evil. If you think about it, the Istari are more like the angels they were sent to Middle-Earth to be rather than wizards, which only Men and Hobbits call them. And Harry Potter? Don't even go there with me. The books were fine, but the movies were soooooo bad...
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Old 05-31-2003, 09:50 AM   #14
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Sting

Harry Potter? Evil? I refuse to believe that.

Lotr? Evil? Its quite dark, yes, but not evil. Fantasy novels have dark moments. Its almost essential in a good heroic story.
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Old 05-31-2003, 10:38 AM   #15
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Well, that made me laugh out loud. It was very difficult to have even the slightest respect for the writer's opinion - since for me, it mostly seemed to revolve around 'Harry Potter and LOTR are occultic' yet he never gave the slightest bit of evidence from either to back this up. I hate arguments with no evidence [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] If you must argue, do it properly.

In any case, I simply CAN'T understand how LotR can be viewed as evil. Not because good wins over evil - but did the writer of that article pay the slightest attention to how good won over evil? It wasn't through occultic practises, or spells (even if Gandalf helped them along occasionally) it was through will power and strength of heart, and all those other qualities that are good. Not by the occult.

I strongly advise Alan Yusko to firstly, read the books that he is condemning so strongly (of course, he never will) and then, hopefully having learned something, attempt to back up his argument with evidence.

Oh, and there is ALWAYS room for debate. It annoyed me when he said that...it just seems so close-minded. There is no clear right or wrong.
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Old 05-31-2003, 11:22 AM   #16
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As a huge fan of both HP and LOTR I can safe with absolutely no doubt that neither are evil. Both books are very similar in many common themes (such as friendship and loyalty even in diffcult times, and following what is the good and right thing to do eben though it may be diffcult). How can two bokks that support ideas such as good wins over evil, kindness, loyalty, friendship be considered evil.
From a literary point of view, both books follow a specific hero archetype where an unassuming hero must somehow save the world at a sacrifice to themselves. This is actually a common theme in literture, especially when magic is used as a background.
I do not wish to get into a debate, and yes this is not a HP board, but I must respond tho those on this site who say that HP is evil, about witchcraft, etc. It is not about evil or witchcraft. As LOTR fans, you might notice that in all of literature, not just these two books, magic is used as SYMBOL!, not meant to be taken literally. Neither the magic of Gandalf of the magic in LOTR encourages any belief in evil, of satanism what so ever. If you believe that crap ( as in the false information, not an insult to the belief, because she has stated that she does not believe in magic) that JKR used black magic in her books, worships the devil, etc then you are very sadly mistaken. That is propaganda from people like the guy who wrote that article. Just like LOTR, hp has roots in lore and mythology. Magic is a backdrop, not the focus. I just couldn't stand for you to be continuly misinformed and perhaps help fuel the fire that HP is evil when it is clearly not. (If it matters at all, I am a devout christian)
BOTH authors encourage good values and morals that everyone can follow, no matter what your religion. Magic is a symbol in these books!

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Katherine712 ]

[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: Katherine712 ]
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Old 05-31-2003, 11:31 AM   #17
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Sting

I had written quite a long and ranting tirade against this witless fundamentalist fool, but then i realised whats the point. He has convinced himself that we are wrong and he is right. His "arguments" are a flawless if you disagree you are in league with the devil etc...
What can you say to a man like this, nothing at all, so frankly i would prefer to say nothing at all about his pathetic arguments.

I despise these biggoted Fundamentalist fools that spout lies. All they do is tell people how evil they are without first looking at what they do themselves. They kill abortion doctors because they think only God has the right to take away a life, they they hypocriticaly go and kill the abortion doctor. I hate them and their self rightous BS

Sorry about that i had intended to just write a little bit, but i got so angry that i sorta went out on a rant again.
Oh yeah i know a lot of people have strong views on abortion, i'm not condeming you if you are for or against it, just the hypocrites that kill in the name of God
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Old 05-31-2003, 11:50 AM   #18
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If you believe that crap that JKR used black magic in her books, worships the devil, etc then you are very sadly mistaken.
Well, I agree, but I don't think you should put it like that. Lots of people have that in their beliefs, so I don't think that's the nicest way to say it.
As for the guy who wrote it- I think he must have been very strictly educated... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

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Old 05-31-2003, 11:56 AM   #19
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I actually understand that person's point of view. Firstly, he has probably been brought up a strict Christian, and so is going to try and promote righteousness. He has been brought up to believe that anything to do with magic is evil. I can understand that he would stick to this belief- like if you'd been brought up to love and respect your parents, and lots of people started telling you bad things about them, you'd naturally
a)not believe it
b)try and change their minds
However (this is a very big "however"), I do not like the fact that he seems to have given himself the right to tell others whether God accepts them or not, and whether they are serving Him as they should do ("If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! ")-that to me is a form of blasphemy, to give yourself status high enough to be able to say what God finds good/bad. I myself am at the moment becoming more Christian (reading the Bible, praying, and starting to generally find out about Him) and I do not feel that this man has any right to tell me, without any evidence, substantial or not, that because I have read the LotR and HP books and liked them (even if this was before I found God) I am automaticaly and irreversibly hellbound.
The sad thing is that he will never read the books because this, from his point of view, will make him a "God-hater"-not because he'll miss out on great works of Literature, but that he'll continue blackmouthing them unsupportedly and unjustly in my view until he dies.
Also, I love the way he insults Tolkien:
Quote:
The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people. The authors of occult entertainment such as Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are nothing more that Satanic pied pipers leading people to the devil. They are leading people away from God and the Bible and straight into the occultic arms of Satan. Why would a professing Christian even attempt to justify the occult. The only reason I can think of is these people never were saved in the first place!
Next thing you know, he'll start selling Indulgences...or not, because that's a fake way into heaven. I think I'll stop now. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

P.S. I think this thread is great, but I also think that if the angry smilies and theological aspects of it get too much, it will be closed down and fall into darkness.
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Old 05-31-2003, 02:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
If you have attended the movies and enjoyed the occult books and allowed your children to do the same, you are an enemy of God. Or if you or your children have read the satanic books and delight in the occult, spells, wizardry, and witchcraft, you are an enemy of God! Then know this: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! Stop kidding yourself! You love committing a sin that God considers an abomination. Therefore you do not belong to God and have aligned yourself with Satan.

Go ahead and laugh and mock when warned and corrected. You are a God rejecting, unteacheable, hellbound sinner. It doesn't matter if you attend some kind of a church. You are lost and perishing. Just one heartbeat from hell would be a good description of your life right now! Don't be self-deceived and think that you can eat from the occultic table of the devil and profess to be a Christian at the same time. Here is what the Bible says

This is legalism in it finest hour. Also this is what gives Christians a bad name. So many of these people believe that if you so much as look at the book you are no longer a Christian. So much of your salvation rests on works and other STUPID cercumsatial stuff that if they looked at themselves in the mirror some old Pharisee would be looking right back at him.


Quote:
And many of them are small legalistic church schools that are so narrow minded that the very mention of a wizard denotes witchcraft. I am saying this cause i just met this guy in my CS 150 class that goes to one of these small legalistic churches (I am Baptist by the way and I am not as bad as this) He says that just because there are "wizards" in the LOTR that he won't read it because he stays away from that. I know that the books were written from the views of Hobbits and I expressed this. I also expressed the fact that the wizards were Istari and not human and therefor had different powers than were given to the children of Iluvitar. I also brought in a book that explained all of this better than I could.( another one that my Baptist, missionaries widow, grandmother wants to steal from me. Mussssst have itsss my presssioussss!) But like I said its these small legalistic church schools that ban good books like this, or just the legalistic churches. My mother, a teacher in the public school system and Baptist, is showing her class the old animated movies for the end of the year. She was also obsessed with them when she was around my age and all that stuff, and she genuinely likes all of this stuff. But still I think that a head honcho should read the books and books about the books before making a horrendous decision like that of those small fascist torture chambers.(by-the-way, I hate legalists. I mean they bother me. They tend to act like the Pharisees and Sagacious)
And this is a reply that I posted on another thread here

]
Quote:
Many are justifying the occult and their enjoyment of it. People who claim to be Christian and who ought to know better are involving themselves with the occult. They are enjoying Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings. Many who are enjoying the occult and are rationalizing reasons to justify their acceptance of occult entertainment.

Here is an example of blind justification of evil: The most foolish argument I've heard is the claim that the writer of Lord of the Rings is a Christian therefore his occult books are OK to read. Let's answer that dumb argument right away! NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people. The authors of occult entertainment such as Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings are nothing more that Satanic pied pipers leading people to the devil. They are leading people away from God and the Bible and straight into the occultic arms of Satan. Why would a professing Christian even attempt to justify the occult. The only reason I can think of is these people never were saved in the first place!
Well what happened to really looking into people. He would probably love CS Lewis.

But this is what I have read concerning Tolkien and magic.

Quote:
Far too many people try to compare J.R.R. Tolkien and J.K. Rowling, just because both of them tell stories about imaginary worlds inhabited by wizards. Not much about their stories is similar. Harry Potter lives in a world full of magic : spells, wands, potions, and flying broomsticks. In Tolkien's world, the wizards (and others) of Middle-Earth preform very little magic. In fact, Tolkien denies that magic is important in his world. He made a point of saying that he uses the word "wizard" to mean something "utterly distinct from Sorcerer or Magician" ( The letters of J.R.R. Tolkien edited by H. Carpenter with C. Tolkien, 159).

...In a letter written after LOTR was published, Tolkien worries that he is "too casual" about referring to magic in the book, and especially about terming it "magic" at all....

One problem is that LOTR is told from the point of view of hobbits. As Tolkien says in the prologue, "Hobbits have never, in fact, studied magic of any kind" ( The Lord of the Rings by J.R.R. Tolkien, I). They don't know much about Elves or humans, either. So what appears as magic to them -- such as Aragorn's ability to heal-- might be superior knowledge rather than actual enchantment. Even Galadriel fails to understand why the hobbits think Elves are magical, as she tells Sam when showing him her Mirror.

Also some characters, like Gandalf and Saruman, who appear to use magical spells, were actually created as supernatural beings by Iluvitar, the God in Tolkien's world. Their God-given gifts are something quite different from magic.

These explanations don't cover every case, because Tolkien developed the philosophy behind Middle-Earth over time, not as part of a plan. It's not fair to expect him too be perfect. However, you can generally assume Tolkien wanted to limit the magic in Middle-Earth. He didn't want characters to build towers with the wave of a magic wand, or to fly to Mount Doom by sprinkling fairy dust. He wanted life to be hard. He wanted the Fellowship's mission to destroy the One Ring to be tough and dangerous. That's what makes it worth while.
( The Magical Worlds of the Lord of the Rings by David Colbert, 2002)

I think that sums up a lot. The other thing that I want to point out is that this person who wrote this, is not being kind.

Quote:
Donot speak evil things against each other, my dear bothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God's law. But you are not a judge to decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it. God alone, who made the law, can rightly judge among us. He alone has the power to save or to destroy. So what right do you have to condemn your neighbor.
James 5:11-12

And again:
Quote:
I know that i should not judge, i am trying to persuade a few people. But that is just what i personally think. i have gone to one of those tiny schools with a legalist fro the principal. frankly i am terrified of enclosed spaces and that was about five or six years ago! What i was trying to say was exactly what my grandmother said about this topic when i brought it up to her.
These are my thoughts on the issue at hand and if you want to PM me feel free. I just sent them a copy of this post; with a few changes of course.


Edit. another paper of stuidity. And oha yes:

Quote:
C.S. LEWIS AND HIS OCCULTISM

Lewis has also written some occultic stories that many have read. Again there is no such thing as using the occult for good. It is all evil and should be rejected by those who love and belong to God.
and

Quote:
THIS IS A FACT - HELLBOUND LOST SINNER!

If you have attended the occultic movies, or allowed your children to attend. Or if you or your children have read the above satanic books. Then know this: YOU NEED TO REPENT AND REJECT YOUR OCCULTIC INVOLVMENT. You have committed an abomination to God by partaking of Satan's occultism and wizardry.

After repenting in prayer you need to purge out your homes of the satanic books and movies. Get rid of that Satanic junk. Destroy it and throw it out lest it become a curse unto you!

For those of you who refuse to repent I will make the following statement: YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN! How can you be? How can you love and partake of Satan's abomination without any concern or care of obedience? This cannot be done! You either belong to God or the devil. if you want to justify and excuse your occult entertainment, then go ahead Mr. or Mrs. non-Christian! You are just a lost hellbound professing tare and you love and accept the things of the devil.

You are a God rejecting, hellbound sinner. It is as simple as that. It doesn't matter if you attend some kind of a church. You are lost and perishing. Just one heartbeat from hell would be a good description of your life right now! Don't be deceived and think that you can eat from the occultic table of the devil and still be a Christian. Here is what the Bible says:

1 Cor 10
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

BLIND AND LOST

Of course people who love the things of the devil are lost and blind. They may even attend some kind of a church and even dare to call themselves a Christian! Some would even get angry reading this tract because it clearly states they are false Christian tares. However, people who love the occult are blinded by the devil. Here is what the Bible says:

2 Cor 4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

...Satan's apostates will defend Satan's work and occultism. You will see Satan's tares defend occultism and witchcraft found in Potter, Lord of the Rings, and CS Lewis' stories. This type of evil will be popularized by the tares. Potter, Lord of the Rings, snd CS Lewis' occult stories will be proclaimed as good Christian reading material and people will be encouraged to read. Those without any care of discernment will go with the popular flow and partake of the devils occultism. The lost tares will gladly partake and defend these evil things of the devil.

For those who belong to God, they will know these warnings in this tract are true. If some repentance and housecleaning is required, then it will be done. It is possible for a saved person to be duped. However, saved people respond to sound Biblical doctrine. God's people also have a desire to please and serve the Lord Jesus. When they learn of a particular sin or abomination, they will turn from it. The tares on the other hand, will love and enjoy the devil's occultic dainties. Those who love snd belong to God will obey and do what is right. The tares will just continue being tares!
Sound familier?

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]
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Old 05-31-2003, 03:24 PM   #21
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Oh i dont think harry potter is EVIL. I just dont think its for me and i dont like some of the ideas of the story. And CERTAINLY the people who read it arent evil! What you read doesnt really decide what kind of person you are and some radicalists who say that are wrong in my opinion.

Okay i just didnt want you guys to think i hated Hp and its readers hehe [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
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Old 05-31-2003, 03:27 PM   #22
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The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic
Suggesting Roman Catholics are not Christans? Not one myself, just noticed that...

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[ May 31, 2003: Message edited by: GaladrieloftheOlden ]
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Old 05-31-2003, 03:36 PM   #23
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Hahahahahahaha, that was the funniest website I've seen in ages, surely it has to be a windup? I can't believe anyone with the basic intelligence to find the 'on' switch of a computer would post this sort of lunatic rant seriously. Almost as good as one I found a few years ago denouncing 'Star Trek' as 'Satan Trek' and 'My Little Pony' as 'The Horse of the Devil'.
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Old 05-31-2003, 03:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
'My Little Pony' as 'The Horse of the Devil'.
I grew up with My Little Pony... So I'm the spawn of Satan now? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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Old 06-01-2003, 04:11 AM   #25
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Old 06-01-2003, 04:48 AM   #26
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Why is everyone so mad? I think it's funny. This guy claims that it's all evil, but to know that, he would/should have read the books, thus going against everything he's preaching.

Did anyone look over the site? Read the part about rock music. It's absolutly hilarious! Do you think it evre occured to him that without Christianity, Satan wouldn't exist? We wouldn't know about it, and therefor the rock musicians wouldn't have anything 'evil' to sing about. And like anyone's going to read this unsubstanciated nonsence and believe it, take his advice and throw out all LOTR/Harry Potter/rock music.
I'm not against him being religious, just being a total philistine. I don't mean to offend anyone, but if you look back at the history of Christianity, the church did a world of damage that I can't really see these things doing.
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Old 06-01-2003, 06:11 AM   #27
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I am laughing. I see some points in the arguments, but mostly I think that this is extremist. His views are too one-sided to appeal to many people. And I have nothing against Christians at all, I am one myself.

Did anyone else notice his obsessive use of "occult"?
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Old 06-01-2003, 06:42 AM   #28
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Well, that one-sided rant has completely tured me. I have now burnt my LOTR and HP books!
Honestly, if he wanted to persuade people over to his side, he shouldve used a fair argument rather than a rant. He's just scaring peole away from God, the exact opposite of what he's trying to do. The guy needs to go back to English class.
It also seems to me that he is saying that Christians are superior to all others, only they can be saved and go to heaven, blah blah. Not only is this racist, I despise elitism. Being a Hindu, I believe all people are equal, all can be saved, nobody is doomed just because theyre not of a particular religion.
This person has, in my opinion, been brainwashed himself; probably by an extremist Christian group. Poor guy, does'nt know what he's rambling.
A question. If God created humans, why would he want us to be like slaves? Wouldnt he prefer that we, created in His image, were also creative in our lives? Wouldnt he prefer us to be absolutely free, and write fantasy so as to be creative?
Ah well, if Heaven and Hell exist, we know where this guys going. Racism, Thinking hes better than everybodyy else, Scaring people away from God, and of course making people start fires! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
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Old 06-01-2003, 11:43 AM   #29
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God is the God of love. He really is. If you look at the human race it is amazing He hasn't killed us all yet! He gave us free will, to do whatever we want( even to embrace evil) because he loved us. f he hadn't done so and made us robots ( like how the Dwarves would have been if Iluvitar hadn't adopted them) God would not be called the God of love and mercy. I think that the reason we die is because the older ya get the more evil has entered your heart(Hence the Hurons, and the reason why God gave us a flood. Among other things). I think that this guy has been corrupted from what could have been a beautiful relationship with God and Christ by the doctrine of a legalist church. This web site is a site put up by an organization not just one person; at least that is what I think. There has always been a problem with strickt doctrine. Man made doctrine is a fars and yes there is a lot of it around. These people who follow this kind of doctrine think a lot of things:

First and most predominate you can't be saved unless you believe in the 7 twenty four hour days.( looking at the Silmiriloin I don't think that even Tolkien believed this. Personally I think God took his time. After all he was creating a work of quality)

Second, you have to be baptized ( was the thief on the cross baptized). Or it must be in a certain way,(does it matter)sprinkling or emersion. Personally I have been baptized twice once in my back yard in a stalk tank.( ooooo I was not baptized in the church building itself what a sin.)

Third if it mentions Wizard it is evil( well they should do research)

and so on....

like you are sinning if you drink.(well Jesus drank wine, not grape juice. I have had people tell me that Jesus drank grape juice. They did not have a way to preserve grape juice other than to let it ferment back then. He was not a like Samson.)

The list goes on. I am a Baptist and believe me even in my church there is a lot of stupid things that goes on in that church as well. My grandmother( who is a missionary wife) love the Lord of the Rings. She thinks that it is these small legalistic churches that believe like the puritans.

This person, who wrote this one-sided paper, needs to sit down read his Bible, and research what he is writing about. (Maybe I should do that too) I did send him, or they an email with that other post( I have said this before) so maybe we can hear back from the people.

And here I go again editing things. This is another point of]doctrinal contention in the church

Also here are some scriptures to look up. I don’t feel like typing them all out:

1 Sam. 25:20-35

Gen. 34:16-20

Luke 7:38-50

Acts 28 :22

Romans 4:1-5

Deut. 9:4-6

Is. 57:12, 64:6, 65:5

Luke 11:42, 18:11-12, 11:39

Here is a defintion of magic from Nelson's Quick Reference Topical Bible Index. Magic, magiian-- the art of doing superhuman things by "supernatural" means.

So I wonder does this apply to the Istari who are supernatural beings? You tell me. I think that this defends LOTR because I shows that it is superhuman things done by a human by the supernatural means. Not supernatural beings doing superhuman things and so forth.(confused yet?)

Melyn,

Annalaliath

(If I have wondered off topic let me know.)

I already did send them a link to this site.
[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Annalaliath ]

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Old 06-01-2003, 11:59 AM   #30
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I totally agree with everything that Brinniel said. According to those who write such articles, we probably shouldn't drink herbal teas, cos they're wiches' potions. But I don't care about such people. I believe in the laws of nature, which are the laws of whoever or whatever created this universe, we call him God, I'm not exclusive as to who or what form God is, cos I wasn't made to know it. I respect other people's beliefs as long as they're not evil, ignorant and destructive. Magic, too, cannot be but handling, or so to speak, knowing teh use of the universal laws, which are not all known to us.
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Old 06-01-2003, 11:59 AM   #31
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Maybe we should just send him a link to this thread [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I agree with guy who be short, in a way. I don't believe in Heaven and Hell, but I'm very slightly religious (Jewish) and I certainly don't believe that one person is better than another because of what they believe in. I think this dude is really discriminating against everybody who wasn’t poured out of the same mold as himself...

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Old 06-01-2003, 12:13 PM   #32
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Well I agree with most things said here so I won't repeat everyone except on a few things.

The one thing I find extremely odd is that he quotes Bible verses all over the place, and yet basically in a sense he goes onto blaspheme by giving himself the powers of God. Here are a few examples.
1)He claims to know whether or not someone is a Christian. This is so crazy because, the Bible states over and over that God is the only judge on the mattter. So why does he feel like he has the right to judge anyone but himself?
2)He says that you are an enemy of God. I believe that God only has one enemy, and his name is Satan. The Bible states that God loves all humans more then we could fathom. I think this is true so why could make us his enemy. He hates SIN not PEOPLE!
3)I dont know Gods feelings on lotr, but if God truly does not like lotr then I believe he would still forgive me for doing it. Just as he forgave the murderer, and the thief.

So basically I feel that he has no right to condmemn others when he himself is sinning. Remember the story of the plank and the speck.

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Trippo The Hippo ]
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Old 06-01-2003, 12:36 PM   #33
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Quote:
NO he is not a Christian! The man is a lost hellbound Roman Catholic who loved spells, witchcraft, wizardy, and other forms of the occult. His demonic fruit in Lord of the Rings speaks very clearly that he is not one of God's people.
Is not a Christian. Has this man even done enough research to know that Tolkien is dead?

Quote:
YOU ARE NOT SAVED! YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN!
This sounds like my friend, who continues to tell me that LotR is a 'bad' book. Of course, she has never read any of Tolkien's works, or even seen the movie. I think her opinion is based solely upon the fact that LotR has magic in it.

Quote:
Just one heartbeat from hell would be a good description of your life right now!
On the cruise I'm going on in June, we stop at a little town called Hell (really), I should send this guy a postcard. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
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Old 06-01-2003, 12:49 PM   #34
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Oh blah, blah, blah. The man is obviously one of the sort of people who have existed throughout time, who burn witches and/or books for being heretical, who killed Galileo and Plato (if I'm not confusing myself, of course [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) etc. He can say what he wants but that is only ONE opinion. His problem is he wouldn't even accept that there are others.

I read a debate in a magazine in my church about whether HP was evil or not. The woman who argued he wasn't was so good that she (partly) swayed the "it's evil" man. The thing is, no-one could really say that it's SUPPORTING religion, it's just not mentioned at all. It's secular.

As for LOTR, it also does not involve religion (if we're talking about specifically LOTR as opposed to the Sil, UT etc.) Tolkien never says there is religion- he never says there isn't. Is this guy saying that EVERY story has to have people praying and saying they are Christian? I assume he hasn't read it (seeing as he says we are all damned!)- so he's basically giving a report based on hearsay and speculation, presumably from people he doesn't even know. He wouldn't exactly be friends with LOTR freaks!

A few non- LOTR related points why the guy is a nut:
  • He says that the fact that the lyrics of songs are repetitive is a sign of the devil.
  • He says famine is due to all these things: HP, LOTR, rock music. Why would God punish Africa for the West reading LOTR?
  • It might sound petty but he has a list of colours you can see as background to the report. I mean- why? What is the point? "OK, so you're damned to Hell. Would you like the news on a lilac or turquoise background?"
  • He appears to have an anti- Roman Catholic fixation. We all worship the same God buddy!

Well, I got out the article about HP and my book A Closer look at the Lord of the Rings, Mark Eddy Smith (it's an amazing book about the Christian values in LOTR- It made me cry buckets) to make a blistering attack on his points, but seriously we know that the man is talking rubbish. We know he has no right to judge us. We know that our points of view are equally important to his. And if the man knew we existed he wouldn't defame himself by listening to our arguments! So what's the point?
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Old 06-01-2003, 01:14 PM   #35
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Quote:
For example, I'm aware of professing Christian parents who let their children read the Lord of the Rings books and see the occultic movies. The wizardry, spellcasting, witchcraft, and blatant occultism does not matter to these parents. All this is considered harmless fun and fantasy for their children. Remember, I'm talking about professing Christians who attend a professing Christian church or school.
So, professing Christians shouldn't read LotR cause it's sinful, and the rest of us can go clunk? Seriously, I don't know who brainwashed this dude, but whoever it was, they've got talent!

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Old 06-01-2003, 01:43 PM   #36
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Wow. Someone from the site e-mailed me a link to this before I found this thread. I guess there could be some that are so infatuated with the stories that it could be considered idolatry. I mean I think that it's wrong to condemn everyone that reads it and even believes in it, but, if you go by Christian doctrine, there are limits. Correct me if I am wrong, as I am one-hundred percent pagan and only know a bit about Christianity (only what's actually in the Old and New Testament, as I read it).
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Old 06-01-2003, 02:09 PM   #37
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It is wrong when it becomes your god. Like drinking is wrong when it becomes your god, or another owrd for this is when you become addicted. Also I think that it may not be right for some people to read Harry potter. If you can't take the perspective that this is not real and become obbsessed to the point of loosing sight of what is real then there is a problem. I will take my vampire obsession that I had and am still dealing with today. I was loosing sight of all things good and beutifull, blood, to me, sounded like a snack. And I scared myself, when things got a little too deep. So that is all I have to say on that.

I think LOTR is a wholesome thing and this guy is just judgeing people out of his own elf ritousness(yes that can even become an idol). This self ritousness is denounced in the Bible a lot. If you look up those scriptures that I posted earlyer than you will find that some of them deal with it. This person is bent, they are twisted. I think that this has a lot to do with the buring of books that the Nazis did. When people burned Betles records because of what John Lennon said(he was not saying that he was better than Christ, just that in his time he was more popular than Christ 2000 years ago). Elvis albums because of hip, and the list goes on. I had an a principal of mine tell me that Pink Floyd was posessed! We all have to think for ourselves and serch for truth. After all God is truth. And in the end we are all on one gient spaceship and He is the only one who knows where it is going.
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Old 06-01-2003, 02:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
A non- LOTR related point why the guy is a nut:
It might sound petty but he has a list of colours you can see as background to the report. I mean- why? What is the point? "OK, so you're damned to Hell. Would you like the news on a lilac or turquoise background?"
Oh, you had me laughing so much there! But i think you may have a point. Why have the background colours? Hmmm... all I'm wondering is: Would it be justifiable if i called the men in white coats for this guy?
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Old 06-01-2003, 02:25 PM   #39
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I think so...
Maybe the colors thing was just how the website works...
I'm just really wondering whether he ever even read anything by JRRT? Just to look over the 'sinfulness'?

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Old 06-01-2003, 02:44 PM   #40
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I am half-tempted to send this guy a link to the Barrow-Downs. Come on, just having him around to bash would be fun...

And all that about Tolkien. Poor hellbound Roman Catholic! *laughs* (Obviously all Christians are not safe...) I should show this site to my Catholic boyfriend...

Ooh, and apparently "ten short years ago", the occult wasn't an issue. How many people here have parents who read LotR?

GaladrieloftheOlden: I was about to put up the verses of the plank/speck when I saw you already mentioned it. Meh. Here 'tis, for those who aren't familiar with it. Out of this same man's Bible, ironically.

Matthew 7:1-5
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

I think he needs to realise what a "Man of God" truly is before he can tell others that they aren't it.

*sigh* It makes me weep to think about this. Just think- this guy may be someone's only Christian influence, and they'll either grow up just like him or rejecting Christianity completely. God, if you're reading this, please help him out.

P.S. I was a Wiccan for a few years (and have a few Satanist friends), and I have found nothing to relate to that in either Harry Potter or LotR.

[ June 01, 2003: Message edited by: Lindril Arvilya ]
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