Greatest Man of Middle-Earth??

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Mattius, Hurin had blonde/golden hair. I presume that is him slaying the Orcs, not the trolls? He also had two axes. Unless that is Turin, but didn't you say it was Hurin?

[Mattius]

I thought he had blonde hair but it was on some guys site saying hurin and the battle of unumbered tears

guess it must be turin then [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Mattius]

Woo Hoo, I finally got one. Now this is a definite picture of Hurin...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

We must remember that Turin was saved from death by his doom. The curse kept him alive, or so I think.

Hurin didn't have a choice in sitting on that chair that's true. But he NEVER crumbled. He endured. Could anyone else have lasted that long? That's what makes Hurin so very, very special.

The interesting point raised in the case for Beren is that possibly any old guy-next-door could have claimed a Silmaril if he had Luthien for a partner. And like Turin, Beren's doom kept him going.

This aspect of doom concerns me, so like many others on this (excellent) thread, I will choose Hurin the Elf-friend, son of Galdor, as the Greatest Man of Middle Earth.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Sorry if i sound like a tosser, but the web-site you got the information from isn't very accurate, as far as that picture is concerned. Eevn if it is Turin, I can't seem to recognise which battle he is at.The North Marches of Doriath, I imagine were not a wasteground, nor was Nargothond or Brethil.It resmebles Anfauglith. (Sp?) I never have read about Turin wielding a axe, only a bow and Eol's sword Gurthang. (Was it called anglachel befor he renamed it?)

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

possibly any old guy-next-door could have claimed a Silmaril if he had Luthien for a partner.

Perhaps, but would Luthien have chosen any old guy-next-door for her husband? The fact that Luthien chose Beren is a point in his favor. Also, stealing the Silmaril is only one of the things on Beren's list of accomplishments.

[Helkasir]

Well,I'm not gonna get caught up in the storm, just going to add my two cents..

For all of this, we must first define "Greatest." There's loads of ways in which a person can be great. I Can't say who's better, but I'll vouch for Beren.

I heard someone say that Beren's claim to fame being "Coming back from the halls of mandos," and the someone else said, "That was all Luthien." But we miss something here. I'd vouch for Beren on this point, because I am a staunch believer in that the pen is mightier than the sword. If Beren could move the most beautiful women in the world to such tears that even Mandos, all powerful as he is, can't resist, Beren must be a truly great man. Is a man's greatness to be measured by how much blood he spills, or by his actions; for he must have truly been in love Luthien to do as he did. This isn't also to mention that he was a great (GREAT) poet, which was what moved Luthien to him in the first place.

He did not fear death, but only captivity, and being bold and desperate he escaped both death and bonds; and the deeds pf lonely daring that he achieved were noised and abroad throughout Beleriand and the tale of them even came into doriath.

Even at young age, he was gainging fame, roaming around, etc. But there's even better stuff

At length Morgoth set a price upon his head no less than the price upon the Head of Fingon, High King of the Noldor; but the Orcs fled rather at the rumor of his aproach than sought him out.

Morgoth must really have disliked Beren, because Beren was getting the same treatment as someone as lordly as Fingon.

He was also the only guy to scale Gorgoroth, and go through Dungortheb, facing the like of Ungoliant, evading Sauron, and then he made it through the girdle of Melian; I doubt many people who want to do that CAN.

Also not that he fought Celegorm and brought hi, a son of Feanor, down from horse. Even when the guy leaps, he gets a tale or two, cause it's mentioned as being important in the tale of Beren and Luthien. And do we really need mention that he get the only silmaril from Morgoth's crown? This guys got alot ffirsts in his Resume.

[Kuruharan]

I'd vouch for Beren on this point, because I am a staunch believer in that the pen is mightier than the sword. If Beren could move the most beautiful women in the world to such tears that even Mandos, all powerful as he is, can't resist, Beren must be a truly great man.

What?! That does not say a thing about the power of Beren's soul. It says more about Luthien's, not his.

Is a man's greatness to be measured by how much blood he spills, or by his actions; for he must have truly been in love Luthien to do as he did.

Hurin's greatness is not based on the amount of blood he shed. I don't think that anyone is really saying that it was. His greatness is based on his action of resisting Morgoth's person for a couple of decades.

How smitten Beren was by Luthien (and no doubt he had it bad) doesn't really have anything to do with it.

This isn't also to mention that he was a great (GREAT) poet, which was what moved Luthien to him in the first place.

So was Daeron but he was never in the running for being the Greatest Elf in Middle earth.

He was also the only guy to scale Gorgoroth, and go through Dungortheb, facing the like of Ungoliant, evading Sauron, and then he made it through the girdle of Melian; I doubt many people who want to do that CAN.

Yes, it's an impressive resume. However, Hurin was the helpless prisoner of the Great Primeval Evil. (The cause of all the suffering in the world, remember.) Hurin had no hope, and still refused to submit.

No other human, ever, went through anything so terrible.

(Why is it I seem to have a galling inability to drive home this point?)

[the phantom]

Hey Kuruharan! You can't drive the point home because not enough people out there are really taking the time to study the situation and then put themselves in Hurin's shoes to see what it would be like.

I spent about half and hour trying to imagine exactly what it would be like. Remember, those save the mightiest, who so much as looked into the eyes of Morgoth "fell into a pit of despair". He was a huge dark lord, eminating hatred, and crushing all hope with his mere presence. Hurin was actually unable to move for the majority of his captivity. Imagine that!! Being completely paralyzed, sitting in a stone chair, watching constant images of suffering and despair, unable to avert your eyes, and being faced with a presence powerful beyond your understanding that desired to turn your mind to darkness.

Please, read some sections about Morgoth's power, then read of his dealings with Hurin, and then take some time to imagine it, putting yourself in Hurin's shoes. If you do this you will realize the magnitude of Hurin's feat.

I understand your frustation Kuruharan.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[Man-of-the-Wold]

Gosh, this is one with legs. I've made my points long ago, but lets face there are some out there who are "steadfastly" for Hurin. I don't see one great act of Troll-chopping and gumption to defy Morgoth (even if later deceived) as surpassing much deeper characters such as Beren, Elendil and Elessar, but oh well.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

Hurin had no hope, and still refused to submit.

Morgoth put Hurin in the chair because he knew Hurin had knowledge of Gondolin. He let Hurin go and Hurin gave it to him. Granted, unintentionally. Morgoth let Hurin go so he would do exactly what he did.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Hmmm….Man-of-the-Wold, the two, the two things you mentioned show just why exactly Hurin was the greatest man ever, both in body and mind.

“ One great act of troll chopping?” What? Do you realise how difficult it is to kill a single troll never mind 70, who might have been even be stronger then in the Third age, when most powerful warriors could barely kill 1. No Elf, Man or Dwarf could slay 70 Trolls bar Hurin, or possibly Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon or Maedhros when they just came into M-E. It would take a lot of stamina to kill 70 trolls, especially if it is one battle, not to mention the Orcs clambering onto him, and he slew hundreds of them.

“ Gumption to defy Morgoth” Defying Morgoth is no easy task. Beren’s most impressive deeds, in my opinion were his deeds on Dorthonion and his slaying of the giant spider/s, yet he was being guided by Eru and fate was in favour, or in other words he was a lucky bugger. Elendil and Aragorn are two of my favourite characters buyt they did nothing to rival Hurin. Elendil helped slay Sauron, but he had quite a bit of help and the Last Alliance has pretty much won the war anyway and Aragorn may have looked in the Palantir, a courageous act, but he wasn’t face to face with Sauron and Sauron is incomparable to Morgoth. Hurin had to endure years of torture, whilst watching his family fall apart. Beren stayed in Sauron’s dungeons for a few weeks or months and hadn’t even been tortured and he was pretty screwed up. You say that Beren wrote poetry, but what evidence is there that Hurin didn’t. He made a song of lament for his daughter Lalaith. Of course you are perfectly entitled to say that Beren is the greatest, and you have a strong case, but arguing is what makes forum’s so fun.

I would have to say Elendil, he cut the ring, what more can I say?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Isildur cut the ring, NOT Elendil. Elendil helped slay Sauron.

Sorry bout that, I've been on minimum sleep and all the names banded together
Now I would have to say Aragorn, he:
-Bought the "world of men" back from the
brink of destruction
-Saved the Ring- bearer many times
-Resisted taking the ring from Frodo
-Re- united men all over the world
Thats all I can say right now.

[Keneldil the Polka-dot]

How smitten Beren was by Luthien (and no doubt he had it bad) doesn't really have anything to do with it.

No, but how smitten Luthien was by Beren has a lot to do with it.

Seems like the arguments for Hurin boil down to his stint in the chair facing Morgoth....resisting Morgoth's will. Hurin did resist for 28 years, but in the end his resistance went for naught when he gave Morgoth exactly what he wanted. Doesn't change the fact that resisting for so long is amazing, but does detract from Hurin's status re: Greatest Man of Middle Earth.

No other human, ever, went through anything so terrible.

(Why is it I seem to have a galling inability to drive home this point?)

Your point is well made, and easily understood. I concede Hurin's 28 year defiance may very well be the bravest single mortal deed. However, don't JRRT's own words describe the retrieval of the Silmaril as the greatest deed ever? Regardless of single acts, Beren wins when looking at the whole picture.

[CSteefel]

Seems a bit difficult to say how one man or another would have fared under imprisonment by Morgoth--if they weren't in this situation, as Hurin was, it is speculation to say whether they would have cracked or not. All you can do is evaluate them based on what they themselves went through.

I am mystified, however, why people would suggest Turin as the greatest man. Greatest warrior, maybe, but a flawed character from the start. It wasn't just the little thing with his sister--he argued early on with Thingol and rejected his pleas to come back to Doriath. He was proud and willful, as was pointed out early on, and this led to the dark future that Thingol and Melian recognized him as having.

Hard to dispute the suggestions of Hurin and Beren, however. One has to factor in the nobility of spirit, and what they were willing to do in pursuit of their ideals or love, and in this respect I think both were bona fide great men.

I would put Elendil myself in front of Isildur, who was flawed (fatally, as it turns out) in not rejecting the Ring and destroying it. Elendil, in contrast, was the prime mover of the Faithful on Numenor, a position that put him at considerable risk. And he, with Gil-galad, was the prime mover of the Last Alliance against Sauron, and it would seem that he and Gil-Galad were primarily responsible for defeating Sauron at the cost of their own lives.

Finally Aragorn... I don't understand the belittling of him above. As Tolkien said, he was the greatest and hardiest traveller of his age, in addition to key roles in saving the day at Helm's Deep, and even more so, at the Pelennor Fields. Only a truly heroic figure could have gone through the Paths of the Dead--while it was prophesied that the rightful heir of Isildur could do it, as Tolkien said, it was only the will of Aragorn that held them to the path. And at a crucial time, he rejected the lure of the Ring (like Galadriel, and unlike Isildur).

Who else but Turin Turambar?

[Kuruharan]

Finally Aragorn... I don't understand the belittling of him above.

Not so much belittling as trying to put his accomplishments in perspective. Obviously, since some of us don't think he qualifies as the Greatest Man of Middle-earth, it is going to appear like we are being hard on him. That's not really what we are about, but we are trying to get a point across.

[Bêthberry]

I think some thinking 'outside of the box' is needed.

Would Aragorn ever have been recognised had it not been for one gossipy old soul who remembered the old lore? Would the fallen have been healed--Eowyn, Faramir, Merry? Would Arwen have then been able to marry her love?

Greatest Man? Ioreth. I can't believe you are all being soooo literal here. And so machismo.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Not so much belittling as trying to put his accomplishments in perspective. Obviously, since some of us don't think he qualifies as the Greatest Man of Middle-earth, it is going to appear like we are being hard on him. That's not really what we are about, but we are trying to get a point across.

Fair enough. I don't necessarily think he is the Greatest Man either, but some of the comments above sound like they are from somebody who has not read the books, or somebody who has some other agenda...

[Kuruharan]

or somebody who has some other agenda

I did. Stumping for Hurin.

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I think some thinking 'outside of the box' is needed.

Would Aragorn ever have been recognised had it not been for one gossipy old soul who remembered the old lore? Would the fallen have been healed--Eowyn, Faramir, Merry? Would Arwen have then been able to marry her love?

Greatest Man? Ioreth. I can't believe you are all being soooo literal here. And so machismo.

Ha! Ha! That's funny....but I'd disagree. I think Eowyn was pretty cool myself, but not the 'greatest.'

This is an interesting topic, no doubt.

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Finally Aragorn... I don't understand the belittling of him above. As Tolkien said, he was the greatest and hardiest traveller of his age, in addition to key roles in saving the day at Helm's Deep, and even more so, at the Pelennor Fields. Only a truly heroic figure could have gone through the Paths of the Dead--while it was prophesied that the rightful heir of Isildur could do it, as Tolkien said, it was only the will of Aragorn that held them to the path. And at a crucial time, he rejected the lure of the Ring (like Galadriel, and unlike Isildur).

What you say is true. I really like Aragorn, personally, but we have to consider that he was in a full lengthed, deeply detailed book, whereas the others here mentioned only got chapters or pages in other books.

I would not choose Turin. He had problems, and I wouldn't even consider the 'little thing' with his sister (as people have labeled it here) as one of those problems. It's not like they knew they were related.

I'll be a Beren supporter. I always liked that story, and I liked his character. I don't believe he had any misplaced pride, like so many others...

Of course, another great character is Faramir...but not quite as great as Beren.

There you go, folks. Enjoy it.

-- Folwren