Of Bard

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Well, not Bard in particular. We know he was descended of Girion of Dale, and that those men were grim and tall and dark and could speak to the thrushes. Also, Ravens were quite popular in that area and could speak in the Westron. Namely Carc and Roac, so anyway Bard later had a son named Brand. Brand was another hero king, and all that, and probably talked to the Ravens alot, since they were likely messengers between Dain and He, and Laketown, and possibly even Beorn to the West. But this brings up a little question/query/sidenote. In Welsh legend there was a great king called King Bran. Bran meant in the Cymraeg (Welsh) Raven, and he symbolized intelligence and wisdom. These may be universal traits when thinking of Ravens, but given Tolkien's keen interest in the language and tales of mine own good people, the Cymry, the Welsh, doesn't that seem to connect. I certainly think so. I really want to get deeper into the subject of Bard and Brand and Dale and Girion the Lord, and all those types, so let's have at it, and see if maybe we can't find a connexion and debate it.

[Iarwain]

I like your connections, but sadly I have very little knowledge of Norse/Welsh/Western European Mythology in general. I do know that Thor was the norse god of thunder, but I fear that that is of little help. I sincerely hope that more people can contribute to this discussion, as I would enjoy it greatly in its later stages.

Until Then,
Iarwain

[ February 02, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Raefindel]

Interesting connection between the Raven and the Thrush, Keeper.

I can add little else except we seem to be missing a generation; Bain was the son of Bard,and his son was Brand.

[Selmo]

In addition to their connection to Bran the Blessed in the old Welsh tales, ravens have a link with the god Odin in Norse mythology.
Odin watched over Midgard (Middle-earth) in the same way as Manwe did, only instead of eagles, Odin had two ravens to bring him news. Their names were Huginn and Muminn, meaning thought and memory (I think).

[Lalaith]

Muninn. But thought and memory is absolutely right.
Ravens and speech seem to have been quite a theme throughout history - think of Edgar Allan Poe...

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Just a question: doesn't it seem like Bard in the hobbit was a bit of a pre- Aragorn character? I mean, he was also supposed to be king/ lord, and for whatever reason, could not be. He wasn't like him at all in character, but still. Just in the same way as Beorn was a bit like Bombadil... I wasn't sure.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Actually, Bard didn't come off with an Aragorn vibe to me. They hyped Aragorn as grim in Bree, but he turned out to be a very normal person, for however great he is. Bard had a very dismal outlook on everything, he was a pessimist. Also, his semi-romanian type descent seems evident, from his jet black hair (I thought it made mention of ringlets, but looking back I see it was just how I imagined it.), and his area of the world. But there of course is a connection between old world Germanic tribes like those that settled in Romania, and ancient Wales. Anyway, yes, I did forget to make mention of Bain. Bain slipped my mind, as he didn't fight in any recorded battles or anything along those lines. But as for the Raven connection, yes, Bran (legend)and Brand (Middle Earth) may have had some link between them that connected with Ravens, maybe he was named after them by his father, because they were friends to those people, and he was indeed wise, from what we know (besides being grim and valiant)so therein lies that connection. Of course, as for the connection to Manwe, I think that is purely fact, that all good birds are connected to Manwe. I don't see too much relevance in this fact linking Manwe to the Bardings. I'll try to get back with much more information regarding all of it.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I have found something that may have been of some relevance.

In Bonedd Yr Arwyr, Bran is made both of paternal and maternal ancestor of Arthur

Grim and tall he was, and an expert marksman, not unlike his father and his grandfather, and their ancestors of the line of Girion? But anyway, as is I can't find much more linking the two, Bran the Blessed and Brand son of Bain.

The name Bran does indeed come up thrice more in old myth and legend, and here is how.

1. Bran, the famous Hound of Finn
2. Bran, the Irish hero who was lured
away to the isle of women, a paradise.
3. Bran, the Blessed, who was so giant
he could fit in no house, and was a fallen
god, possessing a magic cauldron.

The only one that remotely fits the description of Brand, son of Bain, son of Bard, of the line of Girion, lord of Dale, would be Bran #2, the Irish hero. But of course, there is no mytho-historical link at all between them, as there was with Beorn and Beowulf, or of the Great Bear King.

So far all the evidence points only to a connection between his name, and possibly the link between the early Germanic tribes cultures, and those of Dale.

Another connection between old Celtic myth and that of Bran, is the fact that according to many encyclopedias on the subject, Bran was the sea-god and god of sailors. Of course, this COULD connect with Brand and Laketown, but that is very, very doubtful.

Somewhere else it makes mention of a Wolfhound called Bran, who was very great and was actually cousin to a great warrior. Still no good link, however. I think I may have burst mine own bubble, so to speak. But I still don't doubt a small connection if only the meaning of the name Brand and the good ravens of the lonely mountain.

[Alphaelin]

Whoa, synchronicity at work! I have pondered developing a RPG character from Dale for a couple of weeks and suddenly find this thread. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

For my character research, I started in the Appendices of ROTK, where Prof. Tolkien says that the Dalemen, along with other Men in the northern parts of Middle Earth, are "descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from their close kin." They are grouped with the Beornings and the Woodmen of Mirkwood, and distantly connected with the Northmen who gave rise to the Rohirrim.

From there, I started looking online.

Keeper of Dol Goldur, I found some interesting things about the language of the Northmen at the Parma Endorion site: It claims that the speech of the Men of Dale and that of Rohan come from a common tongue. Where Rohirric (?) is roughly equivalent to Old English, the speech of Dale would be equivalent to Old Norse.

Anyone care to comment on the accuracy of statements on this site? I found it using a search engine and am not much of a Tolkien scholar myself.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

You just salvaged this forum, yes there is definitely a connection between the two, of course I always found the Beornings to be a bit more symbolic of the Norsemen, as they were huge axe-wielding berserkers like vikings, but anyway, they are indeed related to those men of Dale. Of course, not all norsemen were huge berserkers with bristling beards and massive arms and the like.

The people of Dale were definitely the eastern Europe variety of people though, as far as I can see. They are all connected, but more closely the Rohirrim (who are germanic of course, and nordic types, but lived a bit further south, then the Beornings, who were also large nordic types, more symbolic of the farther northern tribes, and so that does put those people of Dale in a similar position as the eastern European's near the Black Sea. Like Romania and the regions north of it. It's kind of amusing to think that Bard could be somehow related to the infamous Vlad Tepes (Dracula to the lay man, although I don't suppose I have to point that out). But it makes sense, dark haired men, grim and tall. Of course, this could also associate them with the Huns, who were expert marksmen (if I recall correctly). I wonder, Attila, son of Grimbard, son of Bard II, son of Brand? It could be likely. Well, not really, since they have a title for Attila the Hun's father anyway, but after the world grew wild once more, it isn't unlikely that those people became nomadic. Especially after some of the more recent events of this very age.

[Alphaelin]

Hmmm, I'm not getting Eastern Europeans from the Dalesmen at all. Other than Bard's dark coloring, what would your assertions be based on? (Not trying to be flippant, just asking for more details.)

I can see more of a Scandinavian influence myself, but perhaps that's because some of Bilbo's dwarves have names similar to those found in Scandinavian sagas: Dvalin/Dwalin, and Thorin for example. The name Bard may be derived from a Teutonic word for 'axe' *or* from the Celtic title for singers, and one source for the name Brand suggests it is from an Old Norse word meaning 'spike'.

Girion, however, has me completely stumped [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Sadly, when I tried to get onto Parma Endorion to back my assertions, the site was off-line. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I was partially working with the geographical content and location. But even that doesn't begin to explain everything, as this took place ages before any modern semblence of anything was around. I guess what I'm trying to say is that without a lot of further evidence, it doesn't matter right yet. We'll figure this one out.

[Rumil]

On the subject of the men of Esgaroth and Dale, JRRT's picture in the Hobbit shows the Lakemen wearing (rather exaggerated) 'Phrygian' caps.

I think these were associated with a number of Middle Eastern peoples, (including the Phrygians I guess) such as the Persians. Also they were worn by more 'northern' barbarian types such as the Dacians (who lived mostly in what is now Romania and for whom wearing a hat was considered a mark of nobility). These caps were later popular among the Anglo-Saxons.

I think in appearence the lakemen should be similar to Anglo-Saxon Fyrd, they are noted as using spearmen at the battle of the five armies. The Saxons were also known for their sailing skills.