Symbolic Representations in The Lord of the Rings

[Glirdan]

As the title said, I'm very interested in know how many symbolic representations Tolkien used in The Lord of the Rings.

What brought this sudden bought of curiosity? Why, "The Chroncicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" is the cause of the question (which I will get to in a few minutes). Last night, at the end of my Christmas Concert at school, two people who are in the band with me were talking about how Narnia is a symbollic representation (somewhat) of the Bible. I'm sure some of you already knew this, but I'm posting this to explain to others and to help me get to the point. The Lion is a symbollic representation of Jesus Christ and The Witch (I'm sure this one is pretty obvious) is a symbol of the Devil. Now you are still probably saying to yourself "What has Narnia got to do with this?" right? Well, I was thinking earlier "I know there are a few symbollic represtations in 'The Lord of the Rings' but exactly what?"

Now that is my main question but another thought occured to me as well. We all know that Eru (this is argued) is (most likely) a representation of God where as Melkor is the Devil, yes? Well, seeing as Melkor and Eru don't really have (in the case of Eru, this is not true, but Eru isn't mentioned a whole lot in "The Lord of the Rings") a big role in The Lord of the Rings. Now, is it possible that Tolkien decided to use Gandalf and Sauron to represent them?

What are your thoughts? Are there any other symollic representations that Toliken used? If there are any threads where this topic was discussed, please feel free to post the link.

[Laitoste]

It depends on what you mean by symbolism. Naturally, you have items that are meaningful and symbolic for characters, such as Anduril for Aragorn, but if you want to read in any more than that, you are treading dangerously close to allegory. And, as we all know, Tolkien "cordially dislike(s) allegory in all its manifestations."

On the other hand, some elements are strikingly similar to stories/myths in our world. It is difficult to NOT see these elements (like the similarity of Eru to God) while reading. However, most of the time, Tolkien's stories do accomplish "applicability."

Now, to answer your question, Glirdan, it would be difficult to see Gandalf as God. Perhaps he could be seen as a god-like figure, or a Christ-figure, as has been done before, but he does not have enough of God's qualities to be any sort of representation. However, to a certain extent, he does represent Eru in Middle-Earth. It would probably be more accurate to say he represents the Valar. If you so wish, you could see this as a more symbolic representation, but contextually, he really is a representative of the Valar and Eru.

Sauron, on the other hand, may represent Morgoth on a symbolic level, but not on a literal level. Morgoth did not elect Sauron to go to Middle-Earth and wreck havoc on Morgoth's behalf. Personally, I don't know enough about the Devil to proclaim Sauron's resemblance. I don't even know if I believe there is an evil entity known as the Devil yet. Anyway, if you wanted to read Sauron as a symbolic representation of Morgoth, it wouldn't be much of a stretch, but you may lose something in the reading. Such is the problem with allegory and symbolism. You begin to read everything as representing something else, and forget to appreciate the story for simply existing.

[the guy who be short]

Good and evil doesn't necessarily mean God and Satan.

If Tolkien were to be compared to our world, I'd say I see Gandalf as an angel and Sauron as a Demon. I don't think that's what Tolkien meant for us to see in the characters though - Gandalf and Sauron, to me, are unique to Middle Earth. The underlying theme of Good vs. Evil is what links ME to our world. That could be said to be symbolic.

[Oroaranion]

Of course, these three posts before me all assume that Tolkein's so called symbolism is based on the Bible. Obviously there is the theme of Good vs Evil, and triumph. The thing with these books is that they are timeless, they could represent any time, including now, even though Tolkien may not have foreseen it. We have George Bush invading Iraq (I leave it to you to decide who is teh evil in this example, I go with Bush), the Western Nations fighting agaisnt terrorism, etc.

On a different note, I am not sure how many of you may be accquainted with the classical composer Wagner's Rheingold. It represents Nordic mythology, about a battle of gods and men for a gold ring that grants the wearer huge amounts of power, enough to rule the world, and usurp the gods. Any of this sound familiar?

[Roa_Aoife]

Yes, the Eru/God debate is quickly becoming a Morgoth/Satan debate and a Ainur/Angels debate, and so on, but I'm not so sure if this is symbolism, or Tolkien presenting an alternate history of the world we already live in.

Other Christian symbols I've heard are Aragorn= Christ (traveling through the paths of Death to emerge King of all Men) and Frodo= Christ (bearing the sin of the world to be destroyed.)

Themes presented have been the transition from suffering to hope, weakness overcoming mightiness, and the movement of unseen forces.

My personal opinion though, is that symbolism is all well and good, but over-analyzing anything tends to remove some of the wonder. Maybe we should just let Tom Bombadil be Tom Bombadil, and Frodo be Frodo, and Eru be Eru (whatever conections I may draw), and just enjoy the story.

I think that Oroaranion makes a valid point (well, actually 2 valid points). Tolkiens stories are about Good v Evil and all the triumph, tragedy and difficulty involved in life. A lot of writers and stories use these basic themes. I’m sure there are a lot of similarities between some of Tolkiens writing and Shakespeares writing. Could Turin be compared with Macbeth? I’ve never read any of The Chronicles of Narnia (yet!), but I suspect they also delve into these topics and themes.
From what I know of ‘Das Rheingeld’ there seem to be a few similarities with The Lord of the Rings. Unfortunately, I don’t know as much as I’d like to about Wagner’s masterpiece.

For me, I never really picked up on the religious symbolism that people are talking about. I was more interested in the strong anti-war symbolism (the battle of unnumbered tears, the dead marshes, etc.) and the symbolism used to show his feelings about nature against industrialisation. The way he describes the machinery and fires of Sauron and Saruman and their destruction of nature compared against Gandalf and Tom Bombadil, who are more closely in tune with nature. At some crucial points in the story nature and the natural world are very important in the eventual triumph of the ‘good guys’; the assistance received from Treebeard (and the Ents and Huorns) and from the eagles.

[Glirdan]

There is more than one type of symbolisim, obiously. But I find that, after reading TROTK and The Sil once again, I notice the biblical representation more than the nature vs. industrialisation theme, which is still very aparent.

Now, to answer your question, Glirdan, it would be difficult to see Gandalf as God. Perhaps he could be seen as a god-like figure, or a Christ-figure,

Yes Laitoste, Gandalf is more of a Christ representation than a God-figure. However, there is still a possible God-figure. That being (no, not Eru because that debate is already being discussed at this point) Manwë, who can also be seen as a Christ-figure having been sent by Illuvatar to Arda. I can also see Frodo and Aragorn being Christ-figures as well. I know everything I said has been a bunch mumbling, however, there is something workin in the middle of this insanity. What I'm getting at is that there is, for me at least, a stronger biblical representation than the industrialisation representations. True, our beloved Professor goes into great detail about how Sauron and Saruman use machines a devilry at an attempt to concour their ennemies and that Gandalf and Tom use nature to aid them. I just find that the biblical part is stronger.

[Gil-Galad]

remember the redeemer and the god figure, god doesn't act but the redeember brings about the change to right the wrong the evil did, it is a basic layout for Elizabethan Plays and stories (I.E. Shakespeare) so that could always have some effect here

[Legolas in spandex]

I find it interesting here that it always seem threads like this are constantly having people to feel the need to prove them wrong. Yes, I do see great resemblence between Tolkien's books and the Christian faith. I'v already said what I feel in my thread "not of this world", but, yeah.

[AragornII]

I would have to agree that both Aragorn and Frodo could be Christ figures, although I would have to lean more towards Frodo. As Roa said, Frodo represents Christ bearing the sin of the world to be destroyed. Aragorn is more of a reach to me. He does go through the Paths of the Dead to bring salvation to man (or at least to the men of Minas Tirith ) but he doesn't die or suffer like Christ.

The symbolic representation that I see would be Gandalf as an angel and Saruman as the Devil. Gandalf and Saruman are both members of a high order, like the angels in Heaven. Then Saruman decides that he can be like a god himself, so he revolts, like Satan. However, he is defeated and cast down from the high place ( in the movie, he falls from Orthanc), like Satan from Heaven. If you're really creative, you can say that Helm's Deep represents the battle between the forces of Satan and the forces of God.

I would like to note that Tolkien was a Christian. Christians have a habit of talking about Christ whenever they can. Also if you believe in God, you’ll have Him in all of your imaginary works. Whether or not Tolkien was trying to create a Christ-image, we’ll never know. You can find Christ images wherever you look, and no that does not take out the fun in the story but adds to it. For God is everywhere, even in our most outlandish, ridicules books. Everyone acknowledges that there is a God, every time they say, “Oh, my God” or swear “Jesus Christ!” (no offense, just a point being made)

On the account of evil and Satan, I believe that all evil comes forth from him. Satan is the most notorious, but he is not the only powerful evil in our world. I haven’t finished The Sil., so I don’t know what happened to Melkor. But evil overthrowing evil(or to that extent or representation) is not unreasonable.

You guys probably don’t want me to preach to you. (I will if you let me.) It all depends on what you believe. Tolkien and Lewis were close friends and Christians. They shared the same beliefs and I believe they added parts of their faith to their writings. The choice is yours to look for and believe it or not.

[Roa_Aoife]

Melannen, I think you'll find most of what you're getting at discussed primarily in this thread. Feel free to add your thoughts to it, but be careful- revival of that thread could open a whole new can of worms.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Melannen, welcome to the Downs! Discussions of Tolkien's Christianity have been very lively in the past here on the Barrow-Downs forum. If you're interested in reading them, just use the search function (near the top right of the page) and enter "Christianity" or "Bible", etc. However, there have also been discussions that got so heated and personal because members wanted to out-argue each other, that we had to close the threads. You are very welcome to talk about all aspects of Tolkien's life and works, as long as the discussions are open for all to exchange their thoughts (including and especially those who don't agree!), and as long as the posts are polite and respectful.

[Farael]

I was wondering about whether or not to put this answer up and I hope all of you understand that it is to show that a story is just a bunch of words without a reader and what he or she puts into it.

How about Aragorn as a Jewish Prophet?

The Dunedain were persecuted by a greater evil that was enemy of the "free people of Middle Earth" (which could be associated with the Nazi persecution of Jewish people during World War II) and among their ranks one man rose, by divine inspiration or destiny, over his fellows to lead them and ultimately and after much hardship save them.

I could be drawing Aragorn to Moses connections and I haven't even combed through LoTR and The Sil to see if there was any other possibility.

I'm not saying that the christian views are wrong or right for that matter. A good story is in a way, like a mirror, it reflects ourselves and our values back at us and we all add a little something to a story. This is why each of us has his/her own opinions on all but every topic, including this one.

Originally Posted by Roa_Aoife

Melannen, I think you'll find most of what you're getting at discussed primarily in this thread. Feel free to add your thoughts to it, but be careful- revival of that thread could open a whole new can of worms.

I'm sorry. My last post was kind of uncalled for. It was a bad day...
I'll be careful in the future, and thanks for the reminder.