Wielding the Flame of Anor

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

I realize dozens of people have posted asking the question;

"What did Gandalf mean by;

I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor.

It just dawned on me. Obviously we all know (or should) that Anor is the Sun, and the flame of Anor isn't a stretch for a power Gandalf would wield, since the sun is a ball of flame. But I have a different interpretation of the wording now.

"The Flame of Anor," I from now on see as "The Light of Day", because after all, the Sun represents day, and it's 'flame' can refer to more than the fact that the sun is a ball of fire (especially since in Middle Earth the sun was a ship sailing through the sky, literally as opposed to figuratively.

It makes sense, that a creature of the night, of the dark days before the sun, would fear the light of day, and if Gandalf wielded it, all the worse. While we certainly see Gandalf's abilities with fire through his fireworks and spells, he didn't at all need a spell or words when he broke his staff and the white radiance came forth; practically as if he was daylight, in the long dark of Moria.

Obviously, it isn't a hugely elaborate or impressive discovery on my part, as far as the idea goes, flames and shafts of light being connected as they are. But while the Balrog gets blinded by his light and hewn by his sword, later on the Nazgul actually get hit by it in 'beam' form. When darkness loomed, the White Rider was a reminder of how strong day is.

[Oroaranion]

well, reading the silmarillion, i read that the sun (anor) was the last flower of Laurelin, or was it Telperion? anyway, maybe some of the flame from anor was put into Gandalfs staff. or the jewel in the top could be one of the silmarils, which were said to have contained the light of the two trees.

[Finwe]

I'm afraid that second assertion is impossible. All of the Silmarils have been accounted for, and none of them are in Aman, save one. Earendil bears one upon his brow as he sails in his ship. The other two Silmarils were lost in the fires at the heart of the earth and in the sea, respectively. There is no chance that the jewel on top of Gandalf's staff is a Silmaril.

I think that what he means when he says the "Flame of Anor," is the Flame Imperishable. All of creation is made out of that flame, it stands to reason that the Ainur should be too, at least their physical bodies. It was said that when they walked without a fana (body), they were as a naked, white flame, the Flame Imperishable. Thus, Gandalf, in fighting against the Balrog, would be wielding the Flame Imperishable, and thus, the Flame of Anor.

[lathspell]

I think the post of Finwe does make sense, although I do believe that the 'Secret Fire' is meant to be the Flame Imperishable. The 'Flame of Anor' is Narya, the Ring of Fire, I think. A quote that makes the thought about the Flame Imperishable seem likely is one when Gandalf and the Balrog stand at the bridge.

There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire.

Finwe told us that the Ainur, when without their body, walk around as a white flame. As an afterthought to the Flame Imperishable?!

Why I think that it should be the Secret Fire that is the FI and the Flame of Anor that is Narya is next to be told. The quote runs thus: 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor.'

Gandalf is servant to the Secret Fire. He is a Maia and therefore one of Eru's children from the beginning, who created with the FI. Thus it is likely that Gandalf meant by 'servant': obedient to. Obedient to the FI and so also to it's wielder.
The Flame of Anor. I believe it is Narya because Gandalf says he wields it. He doesn't wield the FI, but he does wield Narya, Ring of Fire.

greetings (for the first time at the improved forum),
lathspell

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

See that's where I'd tend to disagree; somebody said in another forum; "Why would Gandalf reveal that to a mortal enemy?"

I mean, if Gandalf got killed by the Balrog, it seemed likely that the orcs would desecrate his body and find the Ring of Fire, and eventually word would reach Sauron that it had been kept by Gandalf. If he was going to be dead, maybe he didn't think it mattered if anybody knew, but it doesn't seem very much like Gandalf to go announcing something like that. Especially since the bearers of the three had some ability to 'see eachother from afar'. If Sauron got his hands on Narya, he'd know Elrond's and Galadriel's locations, strengths, and plans. They had to remain hidden, which prevented Gandalf from openly saying such things.

On the other hand, he didn't just blab; "wielder of Narya, Ring of Fire." He could have used 'Flame of Anor' just to illustrate to the Balrog that he was in fact wielding a weapon which could be used against the shadow of the demon of might. That and it's likely that the Balrog either had no clue of the existence of 'Rings of Power' or else it just didn't care. Obviously it was okay if he in doing so let it slip to the Fellowship - he trusted Aragorn to maintain the secrecy of his keeping it.

I still say Flame of Anor is comparable to 'Light of Day', because Anor (Anor, Anorien, Minas Anor) is very specifically the sun, and Gandalf lit up a lot of different things. Naturally, the flame elves would place into a ring of power would be that of the sun, because they didn't love the tumultous fires of the earth. Those fires are naturally having to do with the One Ring, not the three.

As for "Servant of the Secret Fire", yes that seems to be referring to his status as a Maiar. He's letting the Balrog know that he is its equal in strength, and that he has a weapon of light also, the very power of it is not to destroy, but it's make is something that in itself would hurt a creature of shadow - sunlight.

Gandalf really liked to let people know it when they assumed they were more powerful than him. The Balrog . . . Saruman . . . Denethor . . . The Morgul-Lord . . . he liked to put things in their place.

[The Mushroom]

Hmmm... I can see the point about the flame of Arnor being the sun. At Helms Deep didn't Aragorn or someone tell the orcs that dawn was always the hope of men? So couldn't the sun have been asociated with the victory of good over evil?
However, with that said, I think he was probably refering to the Flame Imperishable.

[lathspell]

Why would Gandalf reveal that to a mortal enemy?"

I don't think he revealed anything. The Balrog already knew who, or at least what he was. They meet eachother at first at the door, which burst into pieces. Gandalf later tells the Fellowship this.

'Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.'

The Balrog already knew what he was dealing with, so Gandalf at the bridge didn't declare who or what he was to the Balrog. Neither did he declare anything to the orcs, for he didn't speak out clearly his means. I don't believe the orcs know what the Secret Fire or the Flame of Anor is. Don't forget they are mere servants, just as ordinary Men or Hobbits wouldn't know what these things are.
Besides: if Gandalf was to be killed by the Balrog the orcs would desecrate his body anyway. That is their nature.


As for the Flame of Anor to be Narya or 'Light of Day', I think we are in unison. You said in your post that Elves, when making the Ring of Fire would rather take the Sun for their design than any other fire. So, aren't these things the same? If Gandalf meant Narya, which I truely believe, he also meant the Sun and therefore light of day.

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: Mushroom... yes, the Sun is associated with victory, because when the Sun rose for the first time Melkor and his forces didn't know what the bright new star was and grew afraid for a while, knowing the Valar were watching them.

[HerenIstarion]

Hola, lathspell, long time no see My complinets to all other contirbutors of the thread

Two minor points to add (being in general agreement with lathspell, as it is):

1 Jewel on the end of Gandalf's staff is movie convention, I do not recall it mentioned in the books (anywhere)

2 Gandalf on the bridge was trying to avoid battle. His utterances were at the same time a war boast, and a warning, and a hope beyonf hope that Balrog would just leave them alone. Simply put, he tried to scare Balrog away. Sophisticated kind of Tom Sawyer "my brother can beat you up with his little finger" talk. Otherwise, as it was pointed up there, if he succeded in putting Balrog out, it would not matter what he told it before.

[Eldar14]

Maybe just saying that he weilded the Flame of Anor added to his power. After weathertop, didn't Aragorn tell Frodo thet what he yelled at the the Nazgul ("Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!" or something like that) did more damage to them than anything else? So maybe it applies here, where just mentioning the Flame of Anor can both hurt and frighten the Balrog.

Sidenote: Could the orcs even have found the ring? I can't remember exactly, but I think that Sam told Frodo that he hadn't seen Galadriel's ring, but just a bright light. And anyway, if Gandalf had been defeated, the Balrog would have recognized the the ring without Gandalf's help.

[HerenIstarion]

some other minor points:

I'd say Balrog would not recognize the ring as such (what with him being solitary surveyor of the Moria for so long), but presumably:

A) Gandalf being dead, the ring would cease to be hidden
B) Once found, Balrog (presumably) would have been able to discover its properties
C) dubious one - Even if Balrog had not found its properties out, the ring on a Balrog would be (presumably) felt by Sauron?

[lathspell]

Indeed a very long time, HerenIstarion! Good entrance on the matter, especially your second point.

I've got some points to add now too.

1: I agree with HerenIstarion that the Balrog would not recognise Narya as Narya, but he would certainly know that this was something of great worth.
2: I think the Balrog could indeed have found out it's powers, but was unable to use it. Seeing the size of the Balrog and the size of Gandalf. Narya wasn't the One and, as far as I know, wasn't capable of taking a greater rounding.
3: You're dubious one, HI - I disagree with you there. Sauron had neither one of the Three or the One, so I don't think he could have felt it in this way. I doubt if their was a special link of thought between the Balrog and Sauron. Sauron would eventually know that the Balrog had Narya, but I guess that would be just by mouth-to-mouth-talk of orcs.
I do believe that, once Gandalf was dead and his ring unhidden (or when it changes owner), the other two bearers, Galadriel and Elrond, would sense it. They both have one of the Three and use them full-time, this being the reason that I don't believe that Frodo would sense it through the One Ring, for he did not use that Ring.

greetings,
lathspell

[Eldar14]

Well, this is neither the time nor place to argue the physical size and shape of Balrogs, so I guess I won't discuss the ring not fitting.

But even so, I think Sauron would have been aware of the Balrog's new possession. His eye was constantly searching across ME for primarily the one ring, but also the other rings. The reason he hadn't discovered the three yet was that their wearers had been hiding them, and the Balrog would presumably not do such since he and Sauron were both on the same team.

Of course, this all assumes that Narya could be used by the Balrog. If he was calling upon the Flame of Arnor, then he would presumably be placing upon Narya an essence of the light, which might make the ring painful for use by evil.

[lathspell]

[QUOTE] and the Balrog would presumably not do such since he and Sauron were both on the same team. [QUOTE]

Let us not forget that the Balrog and Sauron both were servants of Melkor. There is no point whatsoever to believe that they are now allies or something. They fell under the dominion of Melkor because he was more powerful, being a Vala and them being Maiar. The difference in power between Melkor and Sauron (or the Balrog) was way bigger then the difference of power between Sauron and the Balrog. Gandalf says, when in Moria, that he has met his equal in the Balrog. And Gandalf is only little less than Sauron.
The fact they both served under Melkor and both were high in his esteem seems to make them pretty equal. Now that Melkor is in the Void, I don't believe any Balrog would be in league with Sauron or be helping him altogether.

Yes, the Three were hidden because of the bearers, yet that does not mean that when in other hands (and therefore no longer hidden) Sauron will know where that Ring is. Did not Gollum live under the Misty Mountains with the One Ring there. He lived there very long, and Sauron did not have a clue where the One Ring was. Same will be so with Narya! Only because of orc-talk will he gain knowledge of this Ring of Power.

greetings,
lathspell

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Absolutely right, were the Balrog to take such a thing as Narya, it could never wield it. As an original creature of shadow, I'd be willing to say that Balrogs, like Morgoth's other creations, weren't exactly big sunlight fans, and so since (if Gandalf's flashes of bright white light were from use of the ring) it's power would hurt it, I would say that it would have a few options.

It's first option, the obvious one for something like a Balrog which clearly doesn't have too much of a love of menial possessions, would be to destroy it. Now, by destroying it, the Balrog may have had it in its power to absorb Narya's power (feeding on light, to belch out more shadows, kind of like Ungoliant but obviously not the same). Or it could have just wrecked the thing.

No, the Balrog and Sauron weren't on the 'same team' because that would mean the Balrog was on Sauron's team, and no way would an elfbane like that kneel to a peer. Personally, I think the orcs referring to the Balrog with cries of 'Ghash' were not all that unalike to referencing Saruman as Sharkey or referring to anything back home as 'Lugburz' wanting a prize. Those orcs may have been sent to Moria by Sauron a few centuries before to investigate and inhabit the place, but it was clear that Durin's Bane was in charge, and they kept clear of him. However, if he felt the need to use them to send message back and forth to Dol Goldur, there's no evidence of it happening. While Sauron maybe of all people knew the shadow of Moria was the Balrog, the Balrog seemingly, knowing full well Sauron was a higher up, didn't care to leave Moria for any reason. It was . . . "His realm" and any orc there was there by his leave. I wonder if he had declared himself Lord of Moria . . .

So anyway, regardless of being aware of eachother I don't think there was a lot of talk between the Balrog and Sauron. After all, the Balrog would probably take Sauron for a traitor after going AWOL when Huan ripped his throat out and leaving Morgoth without his most devious schemer during the War of Wrath. If anything, Durin's Bane probably didn't really like Sauron that much anyway, thinking him nervy to take the title of 'Dark Lord'.

As for the ring, I think Gandalf may have known he could kill the Balrog. It's likely he also knew he'd probably die in the feat, but it was he who chased the Balrog through the lowest dungeons from the lake, up the endless stair, and to the tower, not the other way around. Size clearly doesn't matter when someone is packing elf-weapons of the greatest make.

Back on the subject . . . if the Balrog at least claimed the ring, not to wield but as his trophy, he would likely know the locations of Caras Galadhon and Imladris, and then Galadriel and Elrond would know that he was a Balrog, before even the Fellowship came to Lothlorien. Not knowing how the mind of a Balrog works other than wanting to destroy opponents and serve Melkor, I have no idea what he'd do with that kind of information. Probably tell the orcs where to go . . . Maybe lead the attack on Earendil's son's domain himself. Could the waters of Hithaeglir quench the flame of Udun?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

True, the Balrog probably couldn't or wouldn't wield such a thing. The power of the sun wasn't something a creature out of the dark days could really handle. So what would it do with such a trinket? Probably destroy it . . . that seems natural for a Balrog. Maybe claim it for himself without wielding it (if it could be done) and learn the locations of Imladris and Caras Galadhon, then send out orcs, or go for vengeance against the son of Earendil. I have no idea how the mind of Durin's Bane works, so who knows.

The Balrog would certainly not be on the 'same team' as Sauron. It wouldn't kneel to a peer. More importantly, it wouldn't take that kindly to Sauron anyway, it'd probably think he was a traitor. After Huan ripped his throat out, Sauron fled and went AWOL, and basically let Luthien and Beren slip into Angband undetected, steal a Silmaril from the Dark Lord, and ended up meaning the death of the master's pet Carcaroth too. Plus, the Balrog clearly had it's own set limits and was master of its own realm . . . Lord of Moria. Even the orcs called it by a generic evil title like they did Lugburz or Sharkey, or 'the Eye', by calling the Balrog 'Ghash'. He and Sauron may have been aware of eachother, but they certainly weren't on speaking terms. Keeping respectable differences, more like it. Durin's Bane permitted Sauron's orcs to inhabit Moria, but they kept clear of him.

Oh and personally, I think Gandalf knew he'd kill the Balrog when he stopped on the bridge. After all, it was Gandalf that chased it from deepest foundations, all the way at it's slimey heels up the stair, and out onto the tower, where probably weakened by the sunlight it got it's *** handed to it, burst anew flame or no. Gandalf had two elf-weapons of the highest Noldorin make, I don't think he was worried about how 'big and strong' the Balrog was, he was just worried for the Fellowship's safety with him gone.

[HerenIstarion]

A lot of interesting speculations up there, which, for all we know, may be true.

only

Oh and personally, I think Gandalf knew he'd kill the Balrog when he stopped on the bridge.

meets some objections. For why than such a talk as "and I'm already weary"? Was Gandalf trying to higher his marks in his companions eyes? Say, he knew he was going to kill it, yet he was faking uncertainty, to get flapped on the back in a more appreciative way afterwards?

[lathspell]

I always believed Gandalf thought he was to weary to fight the Balrog single-handedly and therefore made his final blast on the bridge, knowing he did it when the Balrog would fall in. Why else would one of the most powerful wizards break his staff knowingly?

And Gandalf was certainly not chasing the Balrog up the Endless Stairs. He tells Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli that he didn't know where he was or how to get away and had to depend on the Balrog to get into regions he knew. The sentence: 'Too well he knew them all!' is quite famous. It is said by Gandalf, referring to the Balrog and the paths underneath moria.
They fought and chased eachother up the tower, and I don't believe Gandalf actually thought while on these stairs that he was going to beat the Balrog. More kinda despair to win the battle of the peak, without a staff ready.

greetings,
lathspell

[HerenIstarion]

I should have finished my previous with "no, I don't think so" entry, seemingly

But are you sure Gandalf broke his staff deliberately? I always had an impression it was it just an accident - staff being not strong enough for the power applied through it at that particular moment.

[lathspell]

Interesting you should mention that, my good HI! I did indeed think about it, but I concluded for myself that Gandalf indeed deliberately broke his staff in a final desperate act to get rid of the Balrog and let the fellowship continue their journey with the haste they needed.
How did I come to this conclusion?
Well, knowing that Gandalf walked in M-e already for a very long time, about 2000 years, and all that time with the very same staff. I think that over that period of time you know every inch of the staff and the exact amount of power it can hold. After this I reasoned that Gandalf knew the amount of power that his spell should hold, for he himself unleashed it on the bridge. The most logic conclusion seems that Gandalf knew that the power he released during that spell was too much for his staff... and therefore broke it knowingly.

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: it is exactly what you said as a kind of afterthought, but I think that this should not be counted as an accident!

[HerenIstarion]

thanks, lathspell

The staff breaking business reminded me somehow of the deliberate brooch-loosing Pippin was commended for by Aragorn:

One who cannot cast away a treasure at need is in fetters. You did rightly

I refer to your point of Gandalf knowing the whole of his staff. When I took time to think about it, I concluded the staff must have been dear to him, even if at only for the sake of all this carrying it around for millenia. So the same praise may apply, what d'ya think?

[inglorion]

Doing well guys. Interesting thread.

On Narya: I am inclined to believe the Balrog could wield the power of Narya provided he possessed it, which certainly was not the case, since possessor of Narya, i.e. not the Balrog, but, yes indeed, Gandalf, smashed him off the mountain into smithereens, or so we were led to believe. (Pheww... got carried away in interpunction there!)

Now, why would I be inclined to believe such a thing? Allow me to explain. The Balrog is a spirit of fire. Narya is a (actually "the", but in the line of this explanation, I prefer "a" for continuity (My grattitude for your unending understanding and your not referring to this in any way)) ring of fire. Well... one seeks continuity and one finds a mess.

Since there is a similarity here in the form of fire, it would seem only logical that the Balrog could wield any device tapping into the elemental force which fire is. At this point I feel I have to make a remark regarding previous contributions on the nature of Narya. It was suggested that Narya was connected with the power of the Sun. Nice thought, but sadly untrue, as can be deduced from the fact that the Three were created after the elements: water (Nenya), air (Vilya) and fire (Narya). This is further supported by the analogy with the Silmarils. One with Aerendil in the heavens, one in the ocean, and one in the earth itself. (Resp. air, water, fire).

This, of course, brings us back again to the passage on the flame of Anor. If Narya is not connected to the Sun than maybe Glamdring is. All speculations, but that's what we're good at after all... Possibly Anor is a connotation to reflect the "enlightened" nature of Gandalf and the items he carries around. So, then "wielder of the flame of Anor" would become something to be interpreted not literally, as in an item so (nick)named, but more figuratively. JRRT might have attempted to further clarify Gandalf's nature as opposed to the Balrog's at this rather epic point in the story. Throw in a few oppositions (light - dark; flame of Anor - flame of Udun, etc) so everybody can work out who's fighting who and then place bets.

Hoping this is of any use,

Greetings Inglorion

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

To risk sounding like philosophy class . . .

If by 'flame of anor', Gandalf meant the ring of fire's fire was sunlight, and if the Balrog, as a creature from the beginnings of Melkor's foul schemes, the Balrog like other creatures could not withstand the sun, then I don't think the Balrog could have used the ring of fire.

Like someone mentioned, the Balrog kinda stuck to hanging out in Moria, and he wouldn't likely know anything about the context of the Ring of Power . . . he'd know it was an elvish tool of some sort, sure, and know it had the power of the sun, but it's not likely he'd know it went along with Sauron's schemes and the One Ring (if he knew of the One Ring at all).

The elvish rings weren't meant to be used as weapons, and every time we've seen 'The Wise' use any sort of magic, it's been basically with the three rings used in conjunction with other sorts of instruments. Gandalf's white rays of light seemed to come from his hands later on, but he used his staff for the most part in the beginning . . . possibly channeling the power of the ring through it. The same goes for Galadriel's mirror and the Phial with her ring, and Elrond's control over the floodwaters of Bruinen.

So anyway, if Gandalf broke his staff, and the result was spectacular white light surrounding him, it seems maybe that staff wasn't quite capable of releasing the necessary power to dispel darkness. Possibly a reflection on Gandalf himself, he was old and tired, and worn - like the staff. Later on as Gandalf the white, he certainly seemed more sprightly and vigorous, and capable of blasting off a couple of channeled white rays at the Nazgul.

Anyway, that's all I've got to add for now until I've reread and rechecked a whole lot of stuff which bears importance to this topic.

[HerenIstarion]

I don't think Gandalf was channeling ring's power, I'd rather say it was his own. The ring concept is stated to help Gandalf in kindling hearts and spirits, not actually setting fire to Nazgul and such...

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Yes. I did. No denying that.

I agree with HerenIstarion on this:

Gandalf on the bridge was trying to avoid battle. His utterances were at the same time a war boast, and a warning, and a hope beyonf hope that Balrog would just leave them alone.

He had to protect the Fellowship by bluster - actually fighting the creature takes time that they do not have.

Maybe Gandalf's statement was a grand poetic translation of:

"If you chase us, the sun outside will fry you."

Or maybe not. Maybe it was metaphorical: since they were both Maiarin in origin - flame - that only differed in masters - Udûn and Anor.

Once again, grand poetical way of saying:

"You cannot harm them as long as I am here."

Whatever the meaning was, Gandalf's bluster failed:

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew.

(LotR II 5)

Which is like saying:

"Where's your sun now?"

without words. But its fires seemed to die, probably realising that it cannot fight Gandalf's fire with his fire.

[inglorion]

I think glorfindel has made a point here. The Rings of Power were indeed created with the thought of the elements: water, air, and fire. The Sun is not associated with fire, but with Light, which is also why it was send into the heavens. So, it seems that Narya wasn't created with the intention of the Sun at all.

And thus I ask again: what did Gandalf mean exactly? I have made a new theory which is altogether not what I thought at first but a very simple explanation.
If you look in the LotR-index and find 'udun' the meaning according to Tolkien is: hell or region in Mordor. When I looked at the map of Mordor I saw that Udun was located precisely behind the Morannon, even before the Morgai or Isenmouthe. So, I think that Gandalf meant places with the names. Places which indeed stand opposite of eachother and so are they.
Flame is because they are both spirits of fire, and Gandalf called for these two places, because these were close together, fighting already, and represented good and evil. Therefore I think that Gandalf chose the regions just behind the gates of good and evil. Those being Udun and Minas Tirith (Minas Anor).

It is merely a coincidence in this theory that the battles of that age are indeed also fought between those two cities, but Gandalf might have known that already, being great and wise. Which leeds me to another question... was Tolkien making the battle between Gandalf and the Balrog a foreboding towards the Battle of the Pelennor Fields? There are many things exactly the same. A region of Mordor against Minas Anor in both fight, and Minas Tirith and Gandalf both win under very great losses.

What do you people think about this?

greetings,
lathspell

P.S.: HerenIstarion - I think your quote really says it all! And I agree with you that Narya was indeed not a weapon as for blasts and explosions, but for creating alliances and dreams in peoples minds. The staff was for the blastpart.

[lathspell]

Sorry, folks... last post was mine. As some know already inglorion is my brother, and I forgot to log in again under my own name. My apologies.

greetings once more,
lathspell

[rutslegolas]

i think the flame of arnor ,gandalf means the ring of fire.
any loremaster would have a better opinion??

[HerenIstarion]

rutslegolas, would you be so kind to give arguments apart from mere statements? thank you

lathspell, thanks for the compliment.

But about Udun and Anor I find it hard to agree (though undoubtedly interesting theory it is). Would Balrog have known names of places which were established after his self-imposed withdrawal to deep places in Moria? (which is to be assumed as happening by the end of the First Age). Besides (form etymologies):

TUB- *tumbu deep valley, under or among hills: Q tumbo, N tum. Cf. Tumladen ‘the level vale’ [LAT], the vale of Gondolin. *tubnā deep: Q tumna lowlying, deep, low; N tofn, Ilk. tovon. *Utubnu name of Melko’s vaults in the North: Q Utumno; N Udun; Ilk. Uduvon; Dan. Utum


ANÁR- sun; derivative of NAR1 . *anār-: Q Anar sun; N Anor.

NAR1- flame, fire. Q nár and náre flame, cf. Anar Sun; narwā fiery red. N naur flame; Anar Sun; narw, naru red. Cf. Egnor [EK], etc.; for Feanor see PHAY. Q narqelion ‘fire-fading’, autumn [KWEL]. [The N form Anar is clear. See ANÁR.]

Gandalf knows Balrog for what it is, and speaks Noldorin names to it. I think the whole passage (and Gandalf's utterances) are another expression of Gandalfs intention to scare Balrog away. He states he knows where it came from (Udun), which is sign of the wise and old spirit (since all moderns refer to it as Durin's Bane not clearly perceiving it for what it is). Than Gandalf states his governance of the power of the Sun, which, whilst first time on the sky scares the guts away from Morgoth and whole his lot.

So, the whole thing might be polite version on:

Remeber how you were afraid of the thing once, you coward? So i can kick you another time, and harder!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Udûn was also the Sindarin name of Utumno, probably the place Gandalf referred to.

In Utumno, the flames there were used to forge weapons of conquest and carnage. Meanwhile, the flame of Anor is used to give or improve life. It can't harm anything except those who are evil - unless you do something silly.

Which the same for the two rivals.

...for [Gandalf] was the Enemy of Sauron[or the Balrog, in this case], opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress.

(UT IV 2)

...loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels [Gandalf] wrought only for mirth and delight; and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.

(UT IV 2)

Gandalf's fire is like the sun - never designed to harm anything - except those of the dark.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Hiya, people! By the way, did anyone notice that Fire is one of the most chaotic elements mentioned in both the Silmarillion and the LOTR?

'King and father, wilt thou not restrain the pride of our brother, Curufinwe, who is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly?'

Fingolfin refered to his half-brother Feanor as Spirit of Fire, meaning his chaotic nature. Fire is in fact one of Morgoth's favorite weapons; his dragons wield it. The Balrogs are Maia of Fire, and doubtless, Sauron being a Maia of Aule is associated with Fire in his smithing of the One Ring.

It do seem significant that the Bridge itself is surrounded with Fire, altogether to give the confrontation a hellish atmosphere:

Right across the floor, close to the feet of two huge pillars a great fissure had opened. Out of it a fierce red light came, and now and again flames licked at the brink and curled about the bases of the columns.

Incidentally, if the Flame of Anor should mean the Sun, did Gandalf literally mean that he is a servant of Arien, the Maia who carried the Anar? Anar is a fire-golden fruit of the Laurelin which Ungoliant poisoned, but Arien is the Maia who carried that fruit across the sky. Definitely sounds awkward if Gandalf refer to himself as the servant of a fruit... But the Flame of Anor came ultimately from er... the Holy Trees, which came from the Holy Lamps, which came from ... Varda and Manwe. (Varda put oil into the lamps and Manwe burnt incense inside them)

So, I guess you can say that Gandalf is telling the Balrog to back off because his boss is more cool than the Balrog's.

[davem]

My own understanding is that when Gandalf tells the Balrog he is a Servant of the Secret Fire & that it cannot pass, he is simply stating a fact about the metaphysical laws of ME. The Balrog is a fallen Angel, it has turned from serving the Secret Fire itself to serving the Dark Fire. The Dark Fire cannot pass the Secret Fire. Its not about whether Gandalf has the strength to stand against the Balrog.

What we have is a confrontation between two of the beings who helped sing Arda into existence. Their conflict in all probability had its origin before the beginning of the world. We are seeing, in effect, the manifestation of a cosmic conflict, begun in eternity, but culminating in a cavern under the Misty Mountains. Gandalf is identifying himself to a fellow Ainur. Its interesting that Tolkien should bring in a reference to the Secret Fire here, at this point, when its hardly mentioned anywhere else in the Legendarium, apart from the Ainulindale. I think its a deliberate attempt to evoke the Music of the Ainur. That this is an event which is taking place on two levels, the mundane & the cosmic, is shown with incredible skill by Tolkien simply by having Gandalf speak of the Secret Fire.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

See now, the bridge seen may have seemed a tad hellish with a fallen spirit present and flames erupting forth from fissures, but once old Durin's Bane heard Gandalf's intimidation game and quenched his own fires, it was nothing but black, and I'd say Gandalf was the only light source in the chamber (save for maybe Sting). It's true, you can't fight fire with fire . . .

Speaking of which, once the Balrog hit the lake, it went slime-form. In slime-form, it eluded Gandalf all the way to Zirak-Zigil. I hate to recall a point, but it didn't rekindle until it was out of the dank, dark tunnels, and in the sunlight. That sort of gives the idea that either, the Balrog could draw on any heat source to light itself into fiery wrath, or that the Sun was scorching it's shadowy mantle and doing half Gandalf's work for him . . . if the Balrog was the one who led Gandalf to the peak, chase or no chase, it wouldn't be a smart move if it couldn't withstand the light of day. Anyway, Gandalf seemed to think it was the first point, the Balrog used sunlight to flame anew, and so the whole point about sunlight hurting it stands as invalid.

And after all, it was Melkor's orcs that couldn't withstand the sun, weak miserable cave creatures, trolls, vampires, and the like. Those were things he had some part in creating. The Valaraukar, he did not create. All he did was give them each a little of his power, the ability to wreath their fiery spirits in a cloak of shadows. While I still think the Flame of Anor is referencing the Ring of Fire, I tend to lean toward the idea of it being an ancient elf-weapon.

After all, the Balrog may not have been awake during the forging of the Rings of Power, but living in Moria, if he ever learned to read Dwarven he'd likely come to find out about the bustling trade and feats of the neighbors in Eregion. As a matter of fact, he'd likely be pretty interested in the movements of the Noldor who lived so close to his domain.

And lastly, if by mentioning his service to the Secret Fire, Gandalf was trying to let the Balrog know his fight was not with it (being a creature of a time long past), he seems to me to maybe have been saying; "I have no business with you, I'm on an urgent errand from the Gods who even you don't have the gall to challenge." All it took to intimidate the orcs was his tone. Wielder of the Flame of Anor may have indicated his status as elf-friend and one of the Wise, one of the most powerful beings around, and then he gave a direct order. By saying, "the dark fire will not avail you", I think Gandalf was simply saying, "I'm not intimidated by your little show of force, bursting into flame and spreading your shadow out." (which reminds me of a cobra as far as spreading out to look bigger). Then Gandalf says, "go back to the shadow". It's not like he's saying, "go back to the abyss prepared for you and your master." I think he was just telling the Balrog to go back downstairs, get it's *** back in bed and don't get in the way.

Now, during the integral mission, was not the time or the place for the Balrog to go on with it's master's ancient feuds. But apparently, the Balrog couldn't have cared less about Gandalf's little mission, and wouldn't have minded knowing what a motley group of men, dwarf, elf, and little folk were doing with some powerful and dark heirloom, and a handfull of powerful and elvish ones.

So naturally, when it decided to step forward, it did it slowly. Boromir blew his great horn and it stopped, probably wondering if the warriors were going to rush in and aid Gandalf in a fight. In any case, Gandalf didn't want them involved. He knocked the bridge right out from under foot, the Balrog fell, but was intent to take Gandalf out with it, pulled him down via whip, and the fight was on.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Keep' (can I call you that?), I agree mostly with what you said, except...

...the Balrog could draw on any heat source to light itself into fiery wrath...

Aren't Balrogs spririts of fire? With their own little ability to self-combust?

Maybe he dried himself a little bit before reigniting himself. He was, after all, wet from the fall.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Keep' . . . sounds good to me.

I agree again, that he probably just needed to get dry and dank dark caverns aren't the places to do that. It couldn't have been much of a heat source at that high altitude anyway.

I start to wonder if by being a 'servant of the secret fire' Gandalf's "rekindling" of men's and anything else with a fea's spirits may have been his intunement (I think that's a word) to the actual imperishable flame. Maybe he could quite literally relight their spirits, if Tolkien wanted the spirit to be something like fire in it's qualities. Kind of like the Olympic Torch of the free peoples of Middle Earth . . . he could build on it, possibly take some of it (thereby shrinking the spirit and making something timid or making himself seem bigger as he did with Bilbo, and quite a good many others).

On a side note regarding old Keepster himself here, I just realized that after a two year run on this site, my name is misspelled. Curse the letter 'o' because Guldur is Guldur, not Goldur. It's the 'o' in Dol that must have thrown off the balance. Oh, and I think this may have been my most successful topic in over a year, since "Of Beorn" which lasted quite a while. Of course, while that last one was purely skeptical, I hope this one can nitpick the writing closely enough that we can figure out exactly what Gandalf said and did in explicit detail. So far, it's clearing up quite well.