The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-16-2002, 05:33 PM   #1
Keeper of Dol Guldur
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Keeper of Dol Guldur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 315, CNY Boys and girls.
Posts: 405
Keeper of Dol Guldur has just left Hobbiton.
Sting The third dark lord

Tolkien kind of had in mind that, no matter what victory good had over evil, it's influence could never be lifted. And after Morgoth's fall Sauron arose, so on a power scale or even just evilness, who was the third dark lord, was there one. I think there pretty much had to be.
__________________
"I come from yonder...Have you seen Baggins? Baggins has left, he is coming. He is not far away. I wish to find him. If he passes will you tell me? I will come back with gold." - Khamul the Easterling
Keeper of Dol Guldur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2002, 05:52 PM   #2
obloquy
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
obloquy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: WA
Posts: 935
obloquy has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to obloquy
Sting

you've always got the best topics, keeper. and by 'best' i mean 'dumb as hell'.
obloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2002, 06:55 PM   #3
Imperica
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 35
Imperica has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Imperica Send a message via AIM to Imperica
Sting

If you're gonna insult people go do it somewhere else.
Imperica is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2002, 07:14 PM   #4
Arwen Imladris
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Arwen Imladris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In a box with a fox
Posts: 1,347
Arwen Imladris has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Ahh! Imperica, you beat me to it. You are correct. Any topic is a valid one. Ever heard of <font color=blue>"there is no such thing as a bad question"? If you do not like the topic, just do not make a post.

On topic, I have never heard of a third dark lord. One might asume, however, that there will be anotherone at some point in time because not all evil was destroyed. It would however take a while to reach a dangerous point.
__________________
"Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."
Arwen Imladris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2002, 07:16 PM   #5
Fingolfin of the Noldor
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NH
Posts: 63
Fingolfin of the Noldor has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I don't think there actually needed to be. According to Tolkien's letters Sauron was really the last real "incarnation of evil." That is not to say there would be "dark lords" there would, I believe Tolkien also provided for this but simply not of the same sort. The only real time after the destruction of the Ring when a "dark lord" of the same type would become the cheif antagonist, I believe, would be the return of Melkor after, as described in various writings in Morgoth's Ring, after that power he had dispersed through Arda began to pool and acculmulate to such an extant that he could remanifest himself within Ea. Sadly though after the rejection of the second prophecy of mandos Tolkien went into very little detail as to what exactly the final battle would entail and involve. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
__________________
Sailhand of the Mariners' Guild
Fingolfin of the Noldor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2002, 07:40 PM   #6
akhtene
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
akhtene's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: stronghold of the North
Posts: 392
akhtene has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

In a book I read the next menace of Middle Earth was a man who gathered the remains of the Nazgul Rings (they appeared not destroyed but scattered). Well, not the scale of Melkor or Sauron, just the conqueror of the world. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Anyway, it has nothing to do with Tolkien's works, so forget.

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: akhtene ]
__________________
Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века,
Чтобы ты - простил?..
А трава разлуки высока...
akhtene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2002, 07:51 PM   #7
Birdland
Ghastly Neekerbreeker
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto
Posts: 1,757
Birdland has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Wellllll, there just happens to be a rather mah-velous RPG happening right now where the next great evil to hit Middle Earth is the Blue Wizards! (Shameless plug).

Seriously though, I would suppose that there will not be Evil Incarnate arising in Middle Earth again but "wars and rumors of wars", as Man strives for dominion over each other.

This kind of thing was happening even back to the Second Age of Middle Earth, and is bound to happen again. And if you ask the common folk of M-E if they would rather be killed by the Dark Lord, or some power-mad Kingling in the Fourth Age, I'm sure they be hard pressed to understand the difference.
Birdland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2002, 01:21 AM   #8
Joy
Spirit of a Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wandering
Posts: 1,020
Joy has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I agree with Birdie. The time of the Maiar on ME had ended with the War of the Ring, so this seems to exclude the "Dark Lords". But again, the 4th Age began the Reign of Men, so there was bound to be "Evil Lords" who tried to pervert and to subvert men to his will. But at this time, instead of one Dark Lord to war against, many "lesser lords" arose to conquer and make war with those of Middle Earth.

Keeper, don't worry about those who argue or call names, just keep posting away. I, for one, appricate these types of questions, as it helps me plan for my story (shameless plug).
__________________
God bless,
Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com
http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com

As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?
Joy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2002, 03:53 AM   #9
Niphredil Baggins
Wight
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 118
Niphredil Baggins has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I suppose... hm.. Tolkien meant his works take place in the unknown history of our world ( we live in Seventh Age now, I think)
So I imagine many small dark lords and ladies in service of Melkor - an emperor there, a pharaoh here, religious tyrants, rulers named The Bloody or The Cruel, and the ones who started World War II...
__________________
Wistful, willful, wingless, fly!
Niphredil Baggins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 02:24 AM   #10
Ardolon
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 16
Ardolon has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I can't remember which HoME book it's from, but Tolkien started a fourth age story. Herumor would have been the cheif antagoist. Coicindintally, Herumor means "Dark Lord"
__________________
Pushing the envelope three inches futher then anyone else.-Bone
Ardolon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 03:54 AM   #11
Gwaihir the Windlord
Essence of Darkness
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Evermore
Posts: 1,420
Gwaihir the Windlord has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

There have supposedly been three attempts by Melkor to dominate the world, and one still to come in the foreseeable future. There is the primal war at the start, in which Almaren and Utumno were destroyed; there is the war of the Jewels in which Angband was broken; and there is the campaign of Sauron, acting under Melkor's will and influence. Fourth is the attempt that is to culminate in the Dagor Dagorath. Ainur, Men and Elves are all represented in these wars.
Quote:
Sauron, chief of the servants of Melkor in his corruption...
Sauron is the only one of Morgoth's Maiar to be mentioned in the Valaquenta. Now that he is gone, Melkor does not, I think, have any more 'dark lords' up his sleeve. With the Dominion of Men, it is not just the Elves that are to back down but all other beings also, the Ainur included. That would presumably include Melkor's servants. Men now dominate Arda, so the only 'dark lords' we now have are those among Men that are corrupted by Melkor's will themselves.

Until the Domionion is finished, and Melkor returns for the penultimate clash (Sauron perhaps resurrected along with him), no, there is not to be another dark lord except Men themselves.

[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]
Gwaihir the Windlord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 06:29 AM   #12
dancing spawn of ungoliant
Mischievous Candle
 
dancing spawn of ungoliant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam.
Posts: 1,267
dancing spawn of ungoliant has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to dancing spawn of ungoliant
Sting

if there had become a "3rd dark lord" he (/she...!?)would had been just a weak copy(that's my opinion!).
melkor, one of ainur, was gone.
sauron, a maia, was destroyed with his ring.
the only "bad guys" left are orcs and some men.
orcs can't bild so good community that there could rise only one orc to rule the others...so what about the easterlings...err...gondor is too strong unless the blue wisards have something to do with the thing
__________________
Fenris Wolf
dancing spawn of ungoliant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 07:01 AM   #13
Aule
Wight
 
Aule's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Hammering away in Valinor
Posts: 126
Aule has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

What about one of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor rising up to become a Dark Lord. They would easily have the power and crafrsmanship to wage war against the easterlings and bring them under their rule.

I hink that could be a possability seeing as this is sorta what happened towards the end of Numenors existance with Kings like Ar Pharazon. They laid the men of middle eart under tribute.
__________________
For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall
Aule is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 07:35 AM   #14
Kuruharan
Regal Dwarven Shade
 
Kuruharan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,685
Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.Kuruharan is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
Tolkien

Quote:
the blue wisards have something to do with the thing

What about one of the Kings of Gondor and Arnor rising up to become a Dark Lord. They would easily have the power and crafrsmanship to wage war against the easterlings and bring them under their rule.
I kind of always had the idea that the Dark Lord would have to be more than a mere mortal. However, that idea may be wrong for the latter days.

My guess would be that a member of the "magic cults" of the Blue Wizards might have sufficient power (of a kind) to arise later on and cause a lot of trouble.
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...
Kuruharan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 07:53 AM   #15
Annalaliath
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Annalaliath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 380
Annalaliath has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Annalaliath Send a message via Yahoo to Annalaliath
Sting

You will always have evil, even in Middle_Earth. Because the evilin the world is not only through melkor and his servants it is in the hearts and minds of the Children of Iluvatar. He gave them free choice, In a matter of speaking, and so when it comes to it they could do what they wanted. There could be a tyrent that rose up after Souron and there also could have been just a lot of other things and people that were evil. The only thing, I think, that could truly destroy evil was Iluvatar. But who knows....
__________________
Bloody Stumps!!!
Annalaliath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 09:17 AM   #16
Morwen Tindomerel
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden
Posts: 187
Morwen Tindomerel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

My personal opinion is the next 'Dark Lord' whose defeat will bring the end of the Fourth age will be the Witch King. I base this on a little throwaway line in ROTK which state the Chief Nazgul's voice '- was not heard again *in that Age of the World*'. Sure sounds like forshadowing to me. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And it has the virtue of symetry. As Morgoth was succeeded by his chief lieutenant Sauron, so Sauron is succeeded by his.

Of course the ground of the south and east must be pretty well littered with black sorcerors, (such as Herumor) who will from time to time cause trouble. And there must be other leftovers from Sauron and Melkor's reigns capable threatening the Reunited Kingdom. But I don't feel these will qualify as the kind of all encompassing 'end of the world as we know it' that makes a 'Dark Lord'.

A Dark Lord who is a Man, or like the Witch King was once a Man, will in fact be the greatest threat of all for Men have the power to change the Music and remake fate. Misused this power could do incalculable damage that only other Men can repair or prevent.

And we mustn't discount the possibility of a fallen Elf as a 'Dark Lord'. As the power of Men waxes there are bound to be those among the remaining Elves who desperately desire to reverse that trend and might turn to evil means to do so.
Morwen Tindomerel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 09:29 AM   #17
dancing spawn of ungoliant
Mischievous Candle
 
dancing spawn of ungoliant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam.
Posts: 1,267
dancing spawn of ungoliant has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to dancing spawn of ungoliant
Sting

in the end of 4th age the time of the elves is over.they have left middle-earth and gone to valinor.and if there is some lonely elf who refuses to go to valinor and wants to be evil-where does he/she get minions?
and the witch king...wasn't the ring the only thing driving him forward(is it even possible to use this kind of expression?!)so, when the ring is destroyed can a wraith stay "alive" well...you know

[ June 19, 2003: Message edited by: dancing spawn of ungoliant ]
__________________
Fenris Wolf
dancing spawn of ungoliant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 11:25 AM   #18
Afrodal Fenyar
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 94
Afrodal Fenyar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Hitler was sort of dark lord, wasn't he? :P I believe many men could be said to have been a dark lord, but all of them were of a lesser scale.
__________________
"Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"

~Eomer
Afrodal Fenyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 11:41 AM   #19
Cúdae
Wight
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 161
Cúdae has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Cúdae
Sting

Quote:
and if there is some lonely elf who refuses to go to valinor and wants to be evil-where does he/she get minions?
The word "elf" could sway a lot of people in the time of Middle-Earth, especially those who had grown up with fantastic stories about the Elves who had left. Many would kill for the chance to serve under an Elf- evil or not. And many would not be able to distinguish evil from good when confronted with an Elf. Many might think "If an Elf says it's okay, then it's okay!"
Anyway, I think the chance of this happening would be very slim, since the Elves were fading and from what I understood, any power (Such as forsight) faded with them.

As for I think on the subject, Sauron might have been the last bodily incarnation of evil in one form, but I think it would be very possible that the next Dark Lord would actually be spread out between each man, woman, and child. As in, the evil thoughts that invade the mind sometimes completely unbid, disguising themselves as a free choice of yours, but actually steering you towards distruction of all things good.

Meh, that sounds like some type of fantasy/horror/sci-fi story. Maybe I should try writing it. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
"And if you listen very hard/ The tune will come to you at last/ When all are one and one is all/ To be a rock and not to roll." --Led Zeppelin "Stairway to Heaven"
Cúdae is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 01:13 PM   #20
Amarie of the Vanyar
Wight
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Valinor
Posts: 215
Amarie of the Vanyar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I remember that in letters Tolkien says that after Sauron there is no other incarnation of evil, as some of you have already said; and that from them on it is more difficult to distinguish evil and good because they are always mixed in all people and in all situations [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

I agree with Tolkien: I would prefer a Dark Lord that is clear for everybody that is the encarnation of evil, like Sauron, than thousands of Sarumans which is not clear which side they are [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] And I think that this Seventh Age sometimes seems an age of Sarumans [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
__________________
But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.
Amarie of the Vanyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 06:30 PM   #21
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

Tolkien did mention that the Blue Wizards might have started cults in the East, influenced by Saruman, that could eventually cause trouble for the western regions of Middle-earth. Their fates are purposefully kept ambiguous, and it is expressly stated that Gandalf was the only wizard to succeed in his mission (which was to inspire others to rise against Sauron), so I'm assuming that means that our dear Ithryn Luin fell "into shadow."
As for the Elf topic, I wouldn't put it past some Elves. Just look at Maeglin. Some may use the excuse that the combination of his traumatic childhood and his capture of Morgoth drove him to madness. I still say that it was his CHOICE. Every evil person starts out good. Even Morgoth was "good" at one point. They just become evil through wanting to do their idea of "good deeds" and what is "good" for the world. Any Elf who was alive before the Dominion of Men could still believe that Arda was intended for the Firstborn only. Elves had remarkable persuasive capabilities. It wouldn't be hard for an Elf to scrounge up a good-sized following of Men to start "taking over the world."
To all those who suggest that a Gondorian king could follow the same path as Ar-Pharazon and Numenor, I say, read the Silmarillion again! Sauron was the one who persuaded Ar-Pharazon to leave him alive, and take him to Numenor as a hostage. After that, he slowly insinuated himself into Ar-Pharazon's good graces. That is how the Fall of Numenor happened. I don't think that anyone with any of Sauron's capabilities ever arose again, and only one of Sauron's persuasive skills could ever hope to persuade a Gondorian king to put him in his councils. It just would be stupid.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2003, 07:56 PM   #22
Morwen Tindomerel
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden
Posts: 187
Morwen Tindomerel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

*All* the Elves certainly do not leave Middle Earth at the end of the Third Age, not even all the great among them. Celeborn, Thranduil and Legolas are all specifically said to have remained - for a time at least.

Tolkien speaks 'faded' Elves, now immaterial, who still commune with chosen Men in our own day. And of evil Elves, disincarnates who hunger for bodies and might try to steal that of an unwary Man.
Morwen Tindomerel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2003, 05:55 AM   #23
Aredhel Idril Telcontar
Wight
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hanging on a sheer cliff with Maedhros
Posts: 113
Aredhel Idril Telcontar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Celeborn and Legolas did leave Middle Earth, but there was nothing said about Thranduil (at least I haven't heard).
There is a 'Dark Lord' in every age, but it seems our - the Seventh - has had more than its share.
Sauron's spirit could still be out there somewhere, turning a man or men to the path of evil. There's no telling when a new 'Dark Lord' will arise.
And I'm begining to scare myself. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]
__________________
"I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me."
Tai uzdaryk mane Tevyne savyje/kaip giesme gerkleje mirtis uzdaro/ ir kaip uzdaro vakara naktis/ o Tu man atsakai: as Tavo laisve
Aredhel Idril Telcontar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2003, 06:40 PM   #24
Morgoth the Great
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Thangorodrim
Posts: 59
Morgoth the Great has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

i think that the only possible person to be the 3rd Dark lord would be the Mouth Of Sauron, coz he was Sauron Lietenant, and Sauron was Morgoths, so that wud fit the pattern, and the Nazgul were all killed, obviously
__________________
Walking to Rivendell: 130 miles. tiring it is too precious....
Morgoth the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:32 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.