Elrond and Sauron, a personal vendetta?

[Alfirin]

I was wondering if anyone else thinks that Elronds more intimate invovemnt with the affairs of those opposed to Sauron (such as assitng the Dunedain and regularly allwong youn heirs to the throne of Gondor [such as Aragon] to reside in Rivendell under his protection) may have had its basis in personal grudge against Sauron, above and beyoned the hatred felt for him by all of the free people of Middle earth. Sauron after all amoung his other crimes caused though his influence the downfall of Numenor, and Numernor had been founded by Elros, who was Elronds twin brother, so Elrond may have felt that Saron had commited not only a horrible act but a direct attack on his own immediate family. What do you all think?

[Gordis]

I don't think Elrond hated Sauron more than Galadriel, Cirdan etc. did.

But, of course, his close involvement with the Dunedain had its basis in his kinship with the Men of Numenor, descendants of his brother Elros.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think Elrond hated Sauron more than Galadriel, Cirdan etc. did.

Me neither. If you think about it, they all must have had personal grudges against Sauron who was involved in the killing of quite a bunch of elves (take Galadriel's kin, for example).

I doubt Elrond felt he had much in common with the Númenoreans anymore by the time of the Downfall. The kings became greedy and "evil" long before Sauron came to Númenor and persecuted those who still loved elves and the valar, with whom I think Elrond would have sided.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I don't think Elrond hated Sauron more than Galadriel, Cirdan etc. did.

I beg to differ. Unlike Galadriel Elrond was actually was there on the front lines fighting Sauron's minions, and Elrond saw his kinsman and friends fall before his eyes. Elrond saw Sauron physically burn Gil-Galad alive, he watched as Elrond was struck down trying to avenge Gill- Galad, and he saw the great Isildur get corrupted by the One Ring.

After all of that I think that would be enough cause for Elrond to go on a personal vendetta, wouldn't you say.

[Nerwen]

Have you forgotten what Sauron did to Galadriel's brother?

[Aganzir]

Sauron was just a representative of Melkor in the Second and the Third Age, and I think that was enough of a reason for the elves to hate him. Each of Galadriel's brothers was killed by Melkor's minions (Finrod by Sauron), as were also her uncles and most of her cousins. And think what happened to Celebrían.

If we're talking about personal vendettas here, Galadriel would have had much more reasons for that than Elrond.

[Elmo]

Elrond's wife was tortured by orcs, and that made her go across the sea. That wasn't Sauron directly but Elrond would blame him.

[Aganzir]

Oops. I forgot Celebrían was Elrond's wife as well.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don't see why Elrond would blame Sauron for his wifes misfortune. . .what I mean is that I have a hard time picturing Elrond sitting at home saying "curse you Sauron, how could you do this to us"

I simply do not think that there is this personal level in the hatred between the two sides, surely you fear somebody more than others, but I do not think that Elrond hates Sauron more than he hates the Witchking. . .Sauron is the most powerful so he becomes the main foe; even if Sauron had been an orc cheiftain directly responsible for the torure of Elronds wife, I doubt he would hold a special hate.

It is not as if some random person does something bad to you. . .Elrond and all elves already hated the orcs and had been fighting them and the rest of Morgoth's creatures for thousands of years.

If there ever was a personal hatred it was towards Morgoth.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Elrond's wife was tortured by orcs, and that made her go across the sea. That wasn't Sauron directly but Elrond would blame him.

Exactly. I would definitely say Elrond had a personal vendetta with Sauron. In any case his sons definitely did, Elladan and Elrohir...

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Have you forgotten what Sauron did to Galadriel's brother?

This is how I see it. Galadriel is a women, and women aren't as hard or as fired up as men can be (even though I have seen some exceptions). Women have different ways of dealing with their hurt, they go off in solitude and morn for the loss that they have just experienced. While men on the other hand just want revenge.

Galadriel didn't actually see her brothers being tortured. Elrond was there and saw first hand acounts of Sauron's cruelty.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

This is how I see it. Galadriel is a women, and women aren't as hard or as fired up as men can be (even though I have seen some exceptions). Women have different ways of dealing with their hurt, they feel hurt and morn for their loss and think of rational ways to deal with it. While men on the other hand want revenge.

I totally disagree with you here - about both how you see Galadriel and how you see women.
I have always thought Galadriel resembles rather the man you described than the woman. She wasn't called Nerwen for nothing. I was to mention this already in my last post but I forgot, anyway, I think Galadriel's nature is much more inclined to want vendetta than Elrond's.

Rune explained my thoughts more clearly than I did.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Frankly, I can see that many people in Middle-earth -- Elrond, Galadriel, Cirdan, Thranduil, etc. -- would have personal reasons for wanting vengeance against Sauron. That Galadriel is a woman is, I think, not an issue; after all, the saying "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" came about for a reason. There may be more men fighting wars because more men are in positions of power, but put a woman there, and often the very qualities which brought her to that position and kept her there make her capable of being as ruthless as any man. I suspect it was with good reason that many Men of Middle-earth feared the Sorceress of the Golden Wood. Galadriel would have more reasons than what happened with Finrod to want revenge against Sauron. It was Sauron, after all, who decimated Eregion and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain. Even if she did not return Celebrimbor's love (another person Sauron tortured and killed quite heinously), she accepted the ring of power he gave her, and we do know that she strongly desired a way to preserve her own realm in Middle-earth. Sauron's betrayal in forging the One Ring at first made her unable to use the gift she was given; only after he lost the One was she able to use Nenya, and then cautiously, since there was no certainty that Sauron was gone and that the One would not be found again. If the One had never been made, how much more would she and the bearers of the Three have been able to accomplish, preserving and enhancing Middle-earth? I'd say she has some mighty strong grounds for wanting vengeance -- and given what Frodo saw in her in the moments before she refused the One (not to mention her defense of Lorien during the war and her cleansing of Dol Guldur afterward), I think her wrath and her revenge would have been as terrible as any man's, if she had had the means to take it.

[Dwarven Warrior]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I don't see why Elrond would blame Sauron for his wifes misfortune. . .what I mean is that I have a hard time picturing Elrond sitting at home saying "curse you Sauron, how could you do this to us"

Well, wasn't Sauron responsible for that, or in the very least Sauron's servants?

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

If there ever was a personal hatred it was towards Morgoth.

Morgoth is out of the way, he's already being punished for his sins. Sauron on the other hand is still alive and working against not only him but also his entire race!

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

That Galadriel is a woman is, I think, not an issue; after all, the saying "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" came about for a reason.

Who scorned Galadriel? Sauron? I'm certain that she's not the type of person who would want Sauron to like her.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There may be more men fighting wars because more men are in positions of power, but put a woman there, and often the very qualities which brought her to that position and kept her there make her capable of being as ruthless as any man.

True, very true. I did say that there were exceptions, but I doubt she could be as mean spirited as Elrond could have been.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Dwarven Warrior

Well, wasn't Sauron responsible for that, or in the very least Sauron's servants?

Were all the orcs Sauron's servants all the time? I don't think so. They fought for Sauron but that doesn't mean he commanded every single orc that lived in the Misty Mountains and other places.

Originally Posted by Dwarven Warrior

Morgoth is out of the way, he's already being punished for his sins. Sauron on the other hand is still alive and working against not only him but also his entire race!

Melkor was the one to start it all. If not for Melkor, would Sauron still be happily in Aman, serving Aulë? Maybe. If a criminal attacks you and robs all your money, do you hate him more than the boss of the gang whose fault the attack, after all, was?

Originally Posted by Groin

True, very true. I did say that there were exceptions, but I doubt she could be as mean spirited as Elrond could have been.

Bah. Elrond is a timid girl compared to Galadriel.
(No need to start arguing about that, I know the facts.)

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Dwarven Warrior

Well, wasn't Sauron responsible for that, or in the very least Sauron's servants?



Morgoth is out of the way, he's already being punished for his sins. Sauron on the other hand is still alive and working against not only him but also his entire race!

We don't know if the orcs of the Misty Mountains was under Sauron's command or not, personaly I don't think they took direct orders from him. I always saw them as an independent force that naturaly was on the same side as Sauron as they where all former minions of Morgoth.

I never knew that you could commit sins in Arda. . .and I don't belive Morgoth is dead. Anyways, if you had a strugle with Morgoth and therefor hated him and he then got killed, would you then naturally transfer your personal hatred to Sauron?

If someone else rose to power, someone like Saruman and Sauron became his servant, would Elrond still hate Sauron the most? If he did then yes, it would be personal, but if not then he just hates who ever is his most powerful enemy.

I don't know if that confused more than it elaborated, I hope it helped. . . Anyways I still I don't see any reason or indication that Elrond hates Sauron more than any other evil of Middle-Earth.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think Galadriel's nature is much more inclined to want vendetta than Elrond's.

Exactly. Elrond was not a vengeful type at all. Instead, he is described as "kind as summer". Not that he was kind to Sauron or to orcs, but at least after the departure of Celebrian he didn't spend his life hunting orcs as his more vengeful sons did.

Also consider Elrond's early experiences. It were the sons of Feanor, not Sauron, who caused the ruin of his family and his people, who killed his grandfather Dior. Elrond's two uncles Elured and Elurin were left to die in the wilderness by the servants of Celegorm - a terrible crime. it was because of Maedros and Maglor that Elrond lost his mother Elwing. Yet Elrond came to like Maglor when the latter had repented. He has never persecuted the followers of the Feanorings, instead he led the relief force when Sauron attacked Ost-in-Edhil where Celebrimbor son of Curufin and most of the remaining Noldor dwelt.

Now Galadriel had a different temperament, moreover she had dealt with Sauron-Annatar in person. Think how galling it must have been for her to recall the time in Eregion. The very same being who had killed her brother so cruelly was there before her very eyes smiling and showing her deference (and laughing inwardly, no doubt) - and she was unable to stop him from ensnaring and ruining the Mirdain, including her friend and admirer Celebrimbor... Remember how Celebrimbor died? And then Gil-Galad, who was no kin to Elrond, but who was close kin to Galadriel (the grandson of Galadriel's brother Angrod). And then her only daughter tortured by orcs...
I won't be surprised if Galadriel's hate for Sauron has become very personal after all this. Likely he was ever on her mind.

I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed! '- the Mirror of Galadriel

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

True, very true. I did say that there were exceptions, but I doubt she could be as mean spirited as Elrond could have been.

Groin, I hope I'm not being really patronising and annoying by asking this... but you are by any chance thinking of the movie version of Elrond rather than the book version?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

Who scorned Galadriel? Sauron? I'm certain that she's not the type of person who would want Sauron to like her.

Now, why did I know someone would say that?

Still, if you look at it in a metaphorical rather than romantic sense, one could say that Sauron scorned Galadriel by denying her the use of Nenya's power. Since "scorn" means to to reject or dismiss as contemptible or unworthy, she might have looked upon Sauron's betrayal as a dismissal of her worthiness to rule a realm of her own in Middle-earth, a feeling that her inability to use Nenya for years could well have compounded.

Well, one could look at it that way, anyhow.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

instead he led the relief force when Sauron attacked Ost-in-Edhil where Celebrimbor son of Curufin and most of the remaining Noldor dwelt.

Of course, when Tolkien wrote that narrative Celebrimbor came from Gondolin and wasn't a Feanorian at all!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Now Galadriel had a different temperament, moreover she had dealt with Sauron-Annatar in person. Think how galling it must have been for her to recall the time in Eregion. The very same being who had killed her brother so cruelly was there before her very eyes smiling and showing her deference (and laughing inwardly, no doubt) - and she was unable to stop him from ensnaring and ruining the Mirdain, including her friend and admirer Celebrimbor... Remember how Celebrimbor died? And then Gil-Galad, who was no kin to Elrond, but who was close kin to Galadriel (the grandson of Galadriel's brother Angrod).

I seriously doubt Galadriel knew who Annatar actually was. Of the rings of power mentions nothing of this, in Concerning Galadriel and Cereborn, UT, also nothing is said. Only in a "isolated and undateable" note is is said that " Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aule in Valinor" - but even this, Tolkien notes, may be for unfounded reasons.

I won't be surprised if Galadriel's hate for Sauron has become very personal after all this. Likely he was ever on her mind.
Quote:
I say to you, Frodo, that even as I speak to you, I perceive the Dark Lord and know his mind, or all of his mind that concerns the Elves. And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed! '- the Mirror of Galadriel

.
Hm, that's quite a play of words, between he seeking her thoughts and she having him on her mind, by intention . If she did have some soft spot, Sauron would have likely used, at least in the ~ 2000 years of the Second Age when he re-became active. The very success she had in overcoming the temptation of the ring points that she had a strong, positive, moral structure; anything else would have been, in my opinion, her utter downfall.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I seriously doubt Galadriel knew who Annatar actually was.

I agree - at the time she had only vague suspicions at best. But you missed my point :what did Galadriel feel when she thought back to this time, when she recalled it - knowing already with certainty who Annatar really had been? He had duped her then and got away with it and killed more of her dear ones and prevented her from using Nenya for a half-age. Galling?

If she did have some soft spot, Sauron would have likely used, at least in the ~ 2000 years of the Second Age when he re-became active. The very success she had in overcoming the temptation of the ring points that she had a strong, positive, moral structure; anything else would have been, in my opinion, her utter downfall.

Is a desire for vengeance a soft spot? I don't think her soft, just the opposite. As for the ring, she was sorely tempted by it - more so, IMO, than Elrond had ever been, again because of her prideful natiure.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

It seems to me as if the question here is not who had stronger grounds for seeking revenge, but who would have been more likely, due to their nature, to act on it, given a real chance. Both Elrond and Galadriel have what I think are equally compelling reasons to want to see him defeated. But who would have directly taken revenge, when the opportunity presented itself? Elrond knew the danger of allowing the Ring to continue existing, and was potentially in a position to at least attempt its destruction at the end of the Second Age. Tolkien never tells us that Elrond ever had any strong desire to take the Ring, even to destroy it. He tried to persuade Isildur to do it, yes, but we aren't told that the thought of grabbing it himself ever entered Elrond's mind. I think that may well have been the point at which he was most vulnerable to the lure of the Ring, and from what we know, he didn't act on it, even in his thoughts.

Galadriel certainly did; it's spelled out for us quite clearly, not only in her words leading up to her refusal of it, but also in the fact that the Valar considered her refusal perhaps the most important thing she ever did in her resistance of the Enemy, as it signaled the rejection of the personal pride that had led her to leave Valinor against their injunction, and her refusal to return with the other exiles at the end of the First Age. Elrond is a loremaster and a healer; though he is master of Rivendell, he shows no desire to rule any greater realm, or to have political mastery over the lives of others. Galadriel, on the other hand, left Valinor because of her desire to have a realm to rule as her own; she is politically powerful because she sought that position, not because fate thrust it upon her. Their temperaments are quite different, and I think the matter of pride is a significant part of that difference. It would seem that it was not a mighty struggle for Elrond to reject the Ring, but it certainly was for Galadriel. All of which, I suppose, could mean that though both might well desire revenge against Sauron, Galadriel, I think, would be more likely to actively seek it.

[Gordis]

Ibrin- very good analysis

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I seriously doubt Galadriel knew who Annatar actually was. Of the rings of power mentions nothing of this, in Concerning Galadriel and Cereborn, UT, also nothing is said. Only in a "isolated and undateable" note is is said that "Galadriel was not deceived, saying that this Aulendil was not in the train of Aule in Valinor" - but even this, Tolkien notes, may be for unfounded reasons..

Raynor, surely you know that just because stuff is not mentioned in sourses it does not mean that it was not the case. . . I have not made my mind up about what to think here so if you have any other arguments they would be much aprichiated. (sorry for being sticking to the topic)

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gordis

what did Galadriel feel when she thought back to this time, when she recalled it - knowing already with certainty who Annatar really had been? He had duped her then and got away with it and killed more of her dear ones and prevented her from using Nenya for a half-age. Galling?

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

All of which, I suppose, could mean that though both might well desire revenge against Sauron, Galadriel, I think, would be more likely to actively seek it.

Whatever strong feelings she had, it was Elrond, not Galadriel, who planned out and marched against Sauron in a ten years war.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Is a desire for vengeance a soft spot?

I believe it is, especially morally so - which could prove fatal (if Galadriel, besides and above her natural temptation towards the ring also nurtured feelings of revenged, she would have been most likely doomed when confronted with the ring) ; in any confrontation of wills, be it direct or not, having a negative emotion driving your actions is a great liability, which an enemy could use to his advantage, by baiting, feeding whatever expectations you might have - it is the same strategy that Gandalf & co used against Sauron, they knew how he would think and react.

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Raynor, surely you know that just because stuff is not mentioned in sourses it does not mean that it was not the case.

True, but then it is a case of personal opinion .

[Gordis]

Raynor: Whatever strong feelings she had, it was Elrond, not Galadriel, who planned out and marched against Sauron in a ten years war.

You mean the Last Alliance war? It was actually a twelve- years war, 3429-3441

I think Galadriel was not there first and foremost because she was a woman. Eldar never normally send their women to fight - neither Melian, nor Galadriel, nor Aredhel ever actively participated in battles of the First Age. As far as we know, Galadriel only took a sword once in her life - in Alqualonde.

Another reason is perhaps that at the time, neither she, not Celeborn had any people of their own to lead to battle. I have an impression that Celeborn wasn't in the Last Alliance fights either.

But staying behind only makes one more bitter, IMO.

Note also that after the victory Galadriel went to Dol Guldur and brought its walls down (with relish ).

As for the "soft spot" - I agree that a vendetta-like disposition is a character flaw, making one more vulnerable to Enemy. Simply I wouldn't call it a "soft" spot.
Take Celeborn and his attitude to Dwarves. He got much more personal in his dislike than an average elf like Legolas. I don't think it made him "softer" but it caused a lot of problems for his neighbours and himself. Had he given some support or advice to Balin et al., perhaps the attempt to re-colonise Moria wouldn't have failed so tragically.

And don't you agree with Ibrin and me that Galadriel seemed to be much more tempted by the Master Ring than Elrond?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It was actually a twelve- years war, 3429-3441

That is so, if we consider that the war started with Sauron's attack on Gondor - although the last alliance was formed in the following year. In fact, even my ten year estimates was a bit off, since the battle started only in 3434.

Eldar never normally send their women to fight

But this was not a normal situation:

Originally Posted by Of the rings of power and the third age, Silmarillion

Now Elendil and Gil-galad took counsel together, for they perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one, if they did not unite against him.

And the nissi do rise to battle when such a dire need comes, Galadriel moreso than any.

Another reason is perhaps that at the time, neither she, not Celeborn had any people of their own to lead to battle.

I doubt she couldn't find a handful of warriors to lead at one of the most important battles of all time (the Dunedain joined a similarly important battle, an Age later, only a handful too), nor that it would have mattered to her if she was driven by thirst for revenge. Moreover, she was a great warrior by herself, which could have been of great value.

Simply I wouldn't call it a "soft" spot.

Well, I didn't mean it in the sense of softness, but, as you said, vulnerability.

And don't you agree with Ibrin and me that Galadriel seemed to be much more tempted by the Master Ring than Elrond?

True, but, as I mentioned previously, her passing of the test proves the level of her moral fiber. The greater the test, the higher the valor .

[Elmo]

I can't imagine why Celeborn would not fight against Sauron in the alliance especially after his role in Eregion. Elves stay able to fight all their life so it would make to try and take all your strength to Dagorlad despite him personally not having an army behind his back. I doubt they marched with the Wood Elves because surely Celeborn would have been able to prevent Amdir's suicidal charge he is called the Wise for a reason. Or maybe Amdir just ignored him!

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I can't imagine why Celeborn would not fight against Sauron in the alliance especially after his role in Eregion. Elves stay able to fight all their life so it would make to try and take all your strength to Dagorlad despite him personally not having an army behind his back. I doubt they marched with the Wood Elves because surely Celeborn would have been able to prevent Amdir's suicidal charge he is called the Wise for a reason. Or maybe Amdir just ignored him!

Good questions, but the problem is that Celeborn was never mentioned in relation to the Last Alliance battles. Yet we know that Elrond, Cirdan, Gil-Galad, Amdir and Oropher were there. (By the way, I think it was Oropher who attacked earlier than planned, while Amdir was cut from the main forces and perished in the Dead Marches).
The apparent absence of Celeborn in the Last Alliance war could be a simple omission but, alternatively, Celeborn might have stayed behind for some reason. I can think of a possible one:
If Celeborn were Thingol's kinsman (LOTR and Silm), specifically "the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo" (UT), then he was by right the Lord of Sindarin Elves, and should have been superior to both Oropher and Amdir - Sindar from Doriath. Yet these two guys had founded their own kingdoms and bowed to no one. Celeborn, by contrast, lost his own lordship of Eregion and all his people and wandered here and there, mostly living in Belfalas. Perhaps he couldn't take part in the Alliance with both Amdir and Oropher refusing him their allegiance?
Just a hypothesis.

[Eönwë]

Women are weak and soft? Pah! Look at Boudicca! (I would normally be prone to "males are better" thoughts, being male, but this is ridiculous!)


Galadriel definiely had more reason to want vengeance than Elrond, but that does not mean that Elronf did not hate him with the most intense bitter hate.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Gordis

The apparent absence of Celeborn in the Last Alliance war could be a simple omission but, alternatively, Celeborn might have stayed behind for some reason. I can think of a possible one.

And I can think of another: If you send absolutely everyone off to war, who takes care of what you left behind, and hope to return to? Who does the work to provide the supplies your army will need during a long war, and who will keep the supply lines open? It's not the kind of task that usually gets remembered when the war is over, but it is as essential to its success as those who go out and fight on the front lines. Celeborn may well have had unsung talents as an administrator rather than a military mind. Since he has a reputation as being wise, I think it would certainly demonstrate wisdom to be willing to remain behind where there is little glory, but considerable and much needed work to be done.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

And I can think of another: If you send absolutely everyone off to war, who takes care of what you left behind, and hope to return to? Who does the work to provide the supplies your army will need during a long war, and who will keep the supply lines open? It's not the kind of task that usually gets remembered when the war is over, but it is as essential to its success as those who go out and fight on the front lines. Celeborn may well have had unsung talents as an administrator rather than a military mind. Since he has a reputation as being wise, I think it would certainly demonstrate wisdom to be willing to remain behind where there is little glory, but considerable and much needed work to be done.

That makes a lot of sense to me. The 7 years-long siege of Barad-Dur would have been impossible without well organized supply lines.