Legend of Kalevala... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Iargwath · 09-22-2002, 02:50 AM

I have recently read somewhere that the tale of Turin Turumbar is very similar to the Legend of Kalevala...Does anybody know what the Legend of Kalevala is? If possible some quotes to back up the similarities with the tale of Turin Turumbar.
Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

09-22-2002, 05:19 AM

You're half right. The tale of Turin Turambar is based on one part of The Kalevala (which is the national epic of Finland). In Kalevala there is a story about Kullervo, who's fate is in many ways similar to that of Turin Turambar.
It's a story about this boy, Kullervo, who has lost his family. Kullervo is believed to be an orphan and the sole survivor of a clan who were completely slaughtered. As he grows up he cannot find his place in life and experiences one misfortune after another. In the end he finds his sister, but he doesn't recognise her and so he marries her. Eventually Kullervo discovers the truth and commits suicide by falling on his own sword, like Turin did.

Here's a site that tells a bit of the the similarities between Kalevala and Silmarillion: http://www.scandga.org/Insights/Wint...02/Tolkien.htm

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kalevala ]

bombur · 09-22-2002, 01:17 PM

I agree with you kalevala. Might add to the similarities of theese legend some things though... like for example thet in kalevala as well, the kullervos sister is first to find out the truth and drown oneself. Kullervo also like turin in killing Beren (Beleg I meant... latter correction.) comits deed of evil against ones fosterfamily for imagined/out-of-proportionally small wronging. As Turin finds a new home in nargothrond and brings death there, Kullervo only believed to be orphan and finds ones family only to bring death to them similarily.

Basically there is only two differences in the legends. Turin is fostered by basically good people and never meets ones own family again.

However Kullervo/Turin is just pretty much the clearest example. There are about million minor similarities between kalevala and silmarillion... The main battle is being fought over items of power, it is woman who makes the mythical trip to death to bring loved one back, the item is stolen from the evil by heroes, the evil sends its minions against the southern lands of the good... etc. etc. etc.

In my opinion however the underlying structure is even more similar. The rules of "magic" are very similar, though I would not totally agree with the essay in the link you posted. In both myths "magic" is centered on craft and skill though names, songs and birthroots are even more important in kalevala for making magic. Mythic scale is rather similar, though silmarillion is much more theistic and more influenced by christian myth.

Also some other examples might be worth consideration. My favourite is this; dwarwes have direct counteparts in the scandinavian-germanic myth, Trolls in the germanic-anglosaxon myth. Eleves have strong similarity to anglosaxon faerie and perhaps some influence from scanidinavian älvar. Hobbits have taken some influence from celtic myth. It seems to me that orcs rather largely come from finnish tradition. Finnish consept of elf (haltija) existed in many kinds of places and forms. Some places had benevolent eleves some had hostile. If you make some kind of synthesis from Finnish eleves living in the nastier places like underground, underbridges, marshponds, cliffs etc... you pretty much get an orc, I´d say.

JH

PS. If you want, you can find short overview of the content of Kalevala here http://www.finlit.fi/kalevala/finfoeng8.htm
The whole epic is 50 poems. Kullervos saga is poems 31-36.

[ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

Iargwath · 09-23-2002, 05:50 AM

Wow...thank you Kalevala and bombur for your posts...they were very helpful.
Thanks again [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Never knew Tolkien associated some of his work around Finland etc...

Orome · 09-23-2002, 09:14 PM

well tolkien did take lots of insparation from the norse myths etc. it makes sense that he would have sampled from this too

bombur · 09-24-2002, 11:50 AM

Well actually finnish have little to do with the norse...

Finnish language has nothing and culture little to do with neither the germanic (German, danish, english, islandic, swedish, norwegian, dutch) nor slavic (russia, poland, check, latvia, lithuania, etc.)

Finland is certainly politically and historically bound to scandinavia from the 1300's onwards, but the myth, ancient religion of the finnish etc. have nothing to do with them.

We are speaking of totally different cultural sphere from its most neighbours. The myths have more similarities to estonian and uralian tribal then to Russian or norse/scandinavian. As the cultural sphere associates even loosely with definately less then 8 million people, one just has to "find" it. Tolkien did and glad that he did.

Janne Harju

PS. Must correct myself... faerie I believe were originally consept in the Cymric/celtic myth, not anglosaxon.

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

HerenIstarion · 09-27-2002, 12:16 PM

Welcome to the board, Kalevala, it was really fascinating to see inquiry concerning Kalevala answered by Kalevala [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Kalevala is thing to read, though sometimes hard to keep on. Not that I know finnish, but interesting information for you 2, bombur and kalevala - it's translated into georgian. Bulky book ,I daresay [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

akhtene · 09-28-2002, 04:25 PM

Read somewhere that The Elven tongues created by JRRT were inspired by the Finnish language. Is that really so?

bombur · 09-30-2002, 01:16 AM

Tolkiens quennya was perhaps, so I hear, inspired by Finnish. Many people, who perhaps know what they are speaking of, claim there to be similiarities.

A Finn can to a great degree pronounce elvish "as it is written." Not so when pronouncing english. Perhaps it is understandable that Tolkien elected this base. Some kind of panel some time ago elected finnish pronounciation to be the most beautiful. If this rumor is true, then I can state for a fact that the electorate has never heard words like "Rääkkääkkään" being used. (base verb: (to) rääkätä. = to pester, to tease etc.)

Tolkien was a linguistic and spoke Finnish to a degree though he never mastered it. Indeed I am yet to meet a person to learn it in adulthood and become fluent.

There perhaps is also a similarity in the structure, as Quennya like Finnish seems to rather bend the base word, then to add "in's" and "of's" and "to's" (to a degree that "ratsastuttajattaretta" means "without a woman to make one ride (a horse)", base verb being ratsastaa = to ride )

Once I said that Finnish language has the predicament of being related to practically only Estonian and not at all to any major language. The fellow with whom I was discussing grinned and said "are you forgetting the eleven language." Fact remains however that I do not know whether a true relation exists. Similarities do.

JH

Ps. You know, herenistarion, I knew Kalevala to have been translated to many languages (about 40), though I have to admit that I was not even aware that Georgia had own language. I suppose from now on I have no business getting offended if someone thinks that we here in Finland speak Russian [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . For some reason the national epics tend to get translated to many languages, but the amounts of copies tend to remain small. They seem to be a form of literature that interrests only few people.

[ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

HerenIstarion · 10-01-2002, 05:41 AM

Quote:

I suppose from now on I have no business getting offended if someone thinks that we here in Finland speak Russian

well, you are not alone in this matter. Still more you were free from Russia in 1918 already, and we only in 1991. Meanwhile I suggest you to download Georgian Font Here for we also have authentical alphabet. Later on, when I get home, I'llpost some stanzas fro you to enjoy [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

HerenIstarion · 10-01-2002, 11:03 AM

promise is a promise, here we go [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

<font face= "AcadNusx">me aRmitana survilma erTma
me fiqri erTi aRar masvenebs, -
minda mzad viyo asamRereblad,
minda Zlieri daviwyo sityva,
raTa vimRero simRera Zveli,
Cemive gvaris hangebi vWeqo.
aha, sityvebi bageze dneba,
sityvebi enas moadga ager,
ager bagenic ganaxvna Cemi
da aw dalagda didebul ambad.

cooky if you get what part is it
[img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

well, just kiddin, it's First Rune, the uttermost beginning of it all

to view the thing as it is intended in Georgian, download Acadnusx.ttf Font
You'll need WinZip to unzip it, though.

I hope I'm not too much boring [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] have fun

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]

bombur · 10-01-2002, 12:05 PM

I just have to offer you a treat as well...

Oi kuningatar, lumenvalkea niin
kun takaa läntisten merien
tulet tänne metsien katveisiin,
olet valona meidän jokaisen!
Oi Gilthoniel! Oi Elbereth!
Ovat silmäsi valonsäteiset!
Sinä huout kirkkautta, ja me
sinun kunniaksesi laulamme.

And here is how it translates back to english... I am curious whether the words have changed a lot...

Oh queen, so snow-white
when from the other side of the western seas
you come here to the places covered by forest,
you are the light for every one of us!
Oh gilthoniel! Oh Elbereth!
Your eyes are luminious!
You seep radiance, and we
sing in your honor.

BTW, that font does not load. There is some kind of error message from Yahoo.

Janne

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

HerenIstarion · 10-01-2002, 12:26 PM

Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear!
O Queen beyond the Western Seas!
O Light to us that wander here
Amid the world of woven trees!

Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!
Clear are thy eyes and bright thy breath!
Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee
In a far land beyond the Sea.

?

bombur · 10-01-2002, 01:21 PM

Actally it seems that the translation kept to the original wording and intent rather exeptionally well. Usually poems change much more in the translation. It seems there is cause for the respect given to the translation of the LOTR as a groundbreaking work.

Janne Harju

HerenIstarion · 10-02-2002, 06:33 AM

bombur, PM me your e-mail address, would you?

Westerly Wizard · 10-12-2002, 11:54 PM

Tolkien had this to write in Letter 163: "I mentioned Finnish, because that set the rocket off in story. I was immensely attracted by something in teh air of the Kalevala, even in Kirby's poor translation. I never learned Finnis well enough to do more than plod through a bit of the original, like a schoolboy with Ovid; being mostly taken up with its effect on 'my language'. But the beginning of the legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was in an attempt to reorganize some the Kalevala, especially the tale of Kullervo the hapless, into a form of my own"

So it seems that the Kalevala played and instrumental part in inspiring Tolkien to take up the writing of his own mythology, but being his own mythology he would soon have to leave his inspirations behind.

bombur · 10-13-2002, 03:24 AM

Westerly wizard is of course right in emphasising that Kalevala was inspiration to Tolkien and not something to plagiate. In the work however the sources of inspiration are to a degree visible, not only Kalevala, but also the sagas and eddas and celtic and anglosaxon myths.

I thought Tolkien was able to master finnish to a greater degree then your message told, interresting indeed. Also have to say that translation of Kalevala may indeed have been very poor. It is poetic work and the translation between finnish and english is always extremely difficult... hapless is not word I'd associalte with Kullervo... poor or unlucky... turambar, maybe.

Janne Harju

Ps. HerenIstarion... You mentioned earlier something of the own sets of charachters used in languages like georgian and finnish... I just understood that the example word I gave of bad sounding finnish rääkkääkkään propably does not show in your screen. Every k is supposed to be k, every sign that does not show properly is supposed to be a with umlauts... hence it as an example of terrible sounding finnish [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] . Perhaps the pronounciation in english would be something like Raeaek-kaeaek-kaeaen or something [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] .

09-22-2002, 02:50 AM	#1
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Legend of Kalevala... I have recently read somewhere that the tale of Turin Turumbar is very similar to the Legend of Kalevala...Does anybody know what the Legend of Kalevala is? If possible some quotes to back up the similarities with the tale of Turin Turumbar. Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

09-23-2002, 05:50 AM	#4
Iargwath Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 236	Wow...thank you Kalevala and bombur for your posts...they were very helpful. Thanks again [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Never knew Tolkien associated some of his work around Finland etc... __________________ 'I waited patiently for the Lord; and He inclined to me, and heard my cry'-Psalm 40 My M-e Forum

09-27-2002, 12:16 PM	#7
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Welcome to the board, Kalevala, it was really fascinating to see inquiry concerning Kalevala answered by Kalevala [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Kalevala is thing to read, though sometimes hard to keep on. Not that I know finnish, but interesting information for you 2, bombur and kalevala - it's translated into georgian. Bulky book ,I daresay [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

09-28-2002, 04:25 PM	#8
akhtene Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: stronghold of the North Posts: 390	Read somewhere that The Elven tongues created by JRRT were inspired by the Finnish language. Is that really so? __________________ Где найти мне сил, чтобы вернуться через века, Чтобы ты - простил?.. А трава разлуки высока...

10-01-2002, 11:03 AM	#11
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	promise is a promise, here we go [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] <font face= "AcadNusx">me aRmitana survilma erTma me fiqri erTi aRar masvenebs, - minda mzad viyo asamRereblad, minda Zlieri daviwyo sityva, raTa vimRero simRera Zveli, Cemive gvaris hangebi vWeqo. aha, sityvebi bageze dneba, sityvebi enas moadga ager, ager bagenic ganaxvna Cemi da aw dalagda didebul ambad. cooky if you get what part is it [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] well, just kiddin, it's First Rune, the uttermost beginning of it all to view the thing as it is intended in Georgian, download Acadnusx.ttf Font You'll need WinZip to unzip it, though. I hope I'm not too much boring [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] have fun [ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ] __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

09-22-2002, 05:19 AM	#2
Kalevala Guest Posts: n/a	You're half right. The tale of Turin Turambar is based on one part of The Kalevala (which is the national epic of Finland). In Kalevala there is a story about Kullervo, who's fate is in many ways similar to that of Turin Turambar. It's a story about this boy, Kullervo, who has lost his family. Kullervo is believed to be an orphan and the sole survivor of a clan who were completely slaughtered. As he grows up he cannot find his place in life and experiences one misfortune after another. In the end he finds his sister, but he doesn't recognise her and so he marries her. Eventually Kullervo discovers the truth and commits suicide by falling on his own sword, like Turin did. Here's a site that tells a bit of the the similarities between Kalevala and Silmarillion: http://www.scandga.org/Insights/Wint...02/Tolkien.htm [ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: Kalevala ]

09-22-2002, 01:17 PM	#3
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	I agree with you kalevala. Might add to the similarities of theese legend some things though... like for example thet in kalevala as well, the kullervos sister is first to find out the truth and drown oneself. Kullervo also like turin in killing Beren (Beleg I meant... latter correction.) comits deed of evil against ones fosterfamily for imagined/out-of-proportionally small wronging. As Turin finds a new home in nargothrond and brings death there, Kullervo only believed to be orphan and finds ones family only to bring death to them similarily. Basically there is only two differences in the legends. Turin is fostered by basically good people and never meets ones own family again. However Kullervo/Turin is just pretty much the clearest example. There are about million minor similarities between kalevala and silmarillion... The main battle is being fought over items of power, it is woman who makes the mythical trip to death to bring loved one back, the item is stolen from the evil by heroes, the evil sends its minions against the southern lands of the good... etc. etc. etc. In my opinion however the underlying structure is even more similar. The rules of "magic" are very similar, though I would not totally agree with the essay in the link you posted. In both myths "magic" is centered on craft and skill though names, songs and birthroots are even more important in kalevala for making magic. Mythic scale is rather similar, though silmarillion is much more theistic and more influenced by christian myth. Also some other examples might be worth consideration. My favourite is this; dwarwes have direct counteparts in the scandinavian-germanic myth, Trolls in the germanic-anglosaxon myth. Eleves have strong similarity to anglosaxon faerie and perhaps some influence from scanidinavian älvar. Hobbits have taken some influence from celtic myth. It seems to me that orcs rather largely come from finnish tradition. Finnish consept of elf (haltija) existed in many kinds of places and forms. Some places had benevolent eleves some had hostile. If you make some kind of synthesis from Finnish eleves living in the nastier places like underground, underbridges, marshponds, cliffs etc... you pretty much get an orc, I´d say. JH PS. If you want, you can find short overview of the content of Kalevala here http://www.finlit.fi/kalevala/finfoeng8.htm The whole epic is 50 poems. Kullervos saga is poems 31-36. [ September 22, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ] [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

09-23-2002, 09:14 PM	#5
Orome Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 195	well tolkien did take lots of insparation from the norse myths etc. it makes sense that he would have sampled from this too

09-24-2002, 11:50 AM	#6
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	Well actually finnish have little to do with the norse... Finnish language has nothing and culture little to do with neither the germanic (German, danish, english, islandic, swedish, norwegian, dutch) nor slavic (russia, poland, check, latvia, lithuania, etc.) Finland is certainly politically and historically bound to scandinavia from the 1300's onwards, but the myth, ancient religion of the finnish etc. have nothing to do with them. We are speaking of totally different cultural sphere from its most neighbours. The myths have more similarities to estonian and uralian tribal then to Russian or norse/scandinavian. As the cultural sphere associates even loosely with definately less then 8 million people, one just has to "find" it. Tolkien did and glad that he did. Janne Harju PS. Must correct myself... faerie I believe were originally consept in the Cymric/celtic myth, not anglosaxon. [ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

09-30-2002, 01:16 AM	#9
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	Tolkiens quennya was perhaps, so I hear, inspired by Finnish. Many people, who perhaps know what they are speaking of, claim there to be similiarities. A Finn can to a great degree pronounce elvish "as it is written." Not so when pronouncing english. Perhaps it is understandable that Tolkien elected this base. Some kind of panel some time ago elected finnish pronounciation to be the most beautiful. If this rumor is true, then I can state for a fact that the electorate has never heard words like "Rääkkääkkään" being used. (base verb: (to) rääkätä. = to pester, to tease etc.) Tolkien was a linguistic and spoke Finnish to a degree though he never mastered it. Indeed I am yet to meet a person to learn it in adulthood and become fluent. There perhaps is also a similarity in the structure, as Quennya like Finnish seems to rather bend the base word, then to add "in's" and "of's" and "to's" (to a degree that "ratsastuttajattaretta" means "without a woman to make one ride (a horse)", base verb being ratsastaa = to ride ) Once I said that Finnish language has the predicament of being related to practically only Estonian and not at all to any major language. The fellow with whom I was discussing grinned and said "are you forgetting the eleven language." Fact remains however that I do not know whether a true relation exists. Similarities do. JH Ps. You know, herenistarion, I knew Kalevala to have been translated to many languages (about 40), though I have to admit that I was not even aware that Georgia had own language. I suppose from now on I have no business getting offended if someone thinks that we here in Finland speak Russian [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . For some reason the national epics tend to get translated to many languages, but the amounts of copies tend to remain small. They seem to be a form of literature that interrests only few people. [ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

10-01-2002, 12:05 PM	#12
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	I just have to offer you a treat as well... Oi kuningatar, lumenvalkea niin kun takaa läntisten merien tulet tänne metsien katveisiin, olet valona meidän jokaisen! Oi Gilthoniel! Oi Elbereth! Ovat silmäsi valonsäteiset! Sinä huout kirkkautta, ja me sinun kunniaksesi laulamme. And here is how it translates back to english... I am curious whether the words have changed a lot... Oh queen, so snow-white when from the other side of the western seas you come here to the places covered by forest, you are the light for every one of us! Oh gilthoniel! Oh Elbereth! Your eyes are luminious! You seep radiance, and we sing in your honor. BTW, that font does not load. There is some kind of error message from Yahoo. Janne [ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: bombur ]

10-01-2002, 12:26 PM	#13
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Snow-white! Snow-white! O Lady clear! O Queen beyond the Western Seas! O Light to us that wander here Amid the world of woven trees! Gilthoniel! O Elbereth! Clear are thy eyes and bright thy breath! Snow-white! Snow-white! We sing to thee In a far land beyond the Sea. ? __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

10-01-2002, 01:21 PM	#14
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	Actally it seems that the translation kept to the original wording and intent rather exeptionally well. Usually poems change much more in the translation. It seems there is cause for the respect given to the translation of the LOTR as a groundbreaking work. Janne Harju

10-02-2002, 06:33 AM	#15
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	bombur, PM me your e-mail address, would you? __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!

10-12-2002, 11:54 PM	#16
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	Tolkien had this to write in Letter 163: "I mentioned Finnish, because that set the rocket off in story. I was immensely attracted by something in teh air of the Kalevala, even in Kirby's poor translation. I never learned Finnis well enough to do more than plod through a bit of the original, like a schoolboy with Ovid; being mostly taken up with its effect on 'my language'. But the beginning of the legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was in an attempt to reorganize some the Kalevala, especially the tale of Kullervo the hapless, into a form of my own" So it seems that the Kalevala played and instrumental part in inspiring Tolkien to take up the writing of his own mythology, but being his own mythology he would soon have to leave his inspirations behind. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

10-13-2002, 03:24 AM	#17
bombur Wight Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: finland Posts: 126	Westerly wizard is of course right in emphasising that Kalevala was inspiration to Tolkien and not something to plagiate. In the work however the sources of inspiration are to a degree visible, not only Kalevala, but also the sagas and eddas and celtic and anglosaxon myths. I thought Tolkien was able to master finnish to a greater degree then your message told, interresting indeed. Also have to say that translation of Kalevala may indeed have been very poor. It is poetic work and the translation between finnish and english is always extremely difficult... hapless is not word I'd associalte with Kullervo... poor or unlucky... turambar, maybe. Janne Harju Ps. HerenIstarion... You mentioned earlier something of the own sets of charachters used in languages like georgian and finnish... I just understood that the example word I gave of bad sounding finnish rääkkääkkään propably does not show in your screen. Every k is supposed to be k, every sign that does not show properly is supposed to be a with umlauts... hence it as an example of terrible sounding finnish [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] . Perhaps the pronounciation in english would be something like Raeaek-kaeaek-kaeaen or something [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] .