Magic vs. Power

[Iarwain]

Maiar, Valar, Eldar. All posess different forms of superhuman nonphysical strength. Very rarely is it seen that any of them should speak any words of power or spell type phrases. Also, each race (Ainur and Eldar) have complete histories and logical reasons for their power, dating back to before the dawn of time in Middle-Earth. Some may call their power magic, but I disagree, because traditional magic is much more unexplained than the sort of power displayed in figures like the Valar, and much more complex than Galadriel's ability to gaze through her mirror. What does everyone think is the difference, and how might this reflect onto other fields in Tolkienology?

Iarwain

[ March 11, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

Do you mean the difference between magic in general and their powers? But anyways, I wish Tolkien went more in depth on magic in Middle-earth. Maybe he just forgot, oh well...

[Iarwain]

That's exactly what I mean, Willie. Tolkien's sort of magic seems to have different qualities than ordinary magic that can be read about elsewhere. The fact that Galadriel has a sort of magic is contradictory to the word's definition, as she is not a "spirit". Power is the only other word I can think of to describe it, she is there, she does nothing, and she causes something else to happen.

Iarwain

[burrahobbit]

You're drawing lines where they don't need to be. Magic, power, what does it matter? Magic is a kind of power, spiritual instead of physical. Boromir has a physical stregth, Galadriel has a spiritual strength. And where did you get the idea that Galadriel isn't a spirit? Don't let her body fool you, she is just a spirit in a can. (So is everything else.) And where did you get the idea that "she does nothing"? Anyway, a rose by any other etc etc.

[InklingElf]

Another wonderful topic created by Iarwain [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I am not an expert in the field of Tolkienology but yes:

traditional magic is much more unexplained than the sort of power displayed in figures like the Valar, and much more complex than Galadriel's ability to gaze through her mirror. What does everyone think is the difference, and how might this reflect onto other fields in Tolkienology?

I guess Tolkien's definition of 'magic' differed because in fact, he didn't like magic [not even the word]. According to Tolkien, 'magic' [as he as no substitute for the word] is an art, which is only given to certain races [i.e., elves] etc...

[burrahobbit]

traditional magic is much more unexplained than the sort of power displayed in figures like the Valar, and much more complex than Galadriel's ability to gaze through her mirror.

Because, of course, those things are completely explained and simple. Yes. Obviously.

[Iarwain]

You can tell that Tolkien doesn't like magic just by reading, its very interesting but he appears to see it as a crude misconception of an art, as we see with Sam and Galadriel. Intresting avatar, Inkling [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] . Thanks for the compliment, it seems very rare that I actually produce a topic of intrest to more than one or two people. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Here's where I believe the line (invisible to you, Burrahobbit) is drawn. Plain magic, shown in other stories appears as a sort of anomaly, an unexplained occurence that somehow allows someone to do something without physically exerting him or her self. However, in Middle-Earth Tolkien has created an environment where Omnipotence is the backing for this nonphysical power, and where it is given accordingly to each race. Rather than being an anomaly, Tolkien's brand of magic is the very reality of middle-earth, it is the force that lies behind its creation and its continual existence. This is when it ceases to be a sort of "weird! how did that happen" power, and becomes the miniature version of divine omnipotence. Each being is woven into the very fibre of Middle-Earth, and has connections to threads around it that others might lack. This is the sort of power that I speak of. To use the same illustration, we might say that a world with traditional magic in it is like a patchwork quilt with several invisible squares, holding the world together, but in a way that is impossible to really understand.

Iarwain

[ March 12, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[InklingElf]

Rightly put Iarwain.

[Bill Ferny]

I think I understand the distinction that you are making Iarwain. I look at it a bit more simplistically, though. I definitely see a lack of “occult” type magic, as in incantations and witch’s brews. The stock staple of most fantasy is that magic is a learned skill. A wizard is someone who has learned how to cast spells, i.e. D&D style. Is this what you mean by “ordinary magic”?

[Birdland]

I know I might make a muddle of this, but I'll try to put across my point. Could it be that "magic" as we think of it in the traditional sense, seems to revolve more around objects that posess some kind of power that can be controlled (sometimes poorly) by others? Such as Rings, "elven rope", Galadriel's mirror, the Palantiri, etc.

Whereas "powers" is something contained within the spirit of a being? Osenwe comes to mind: I would classify this as a "power", rather than magic. And the gods of Tolkien's mythology do not require the use of props to induce "magic". It comes from within themselves and is part of their nature.

There. I hope that came out right.

[Mornie Alantie]

What is meant is that the LOTR "magic" is not magic as in Harry Potter. Harry Potter has magic that must be learned and developed. It includes things like spells and incantations etc. On the other hand LOTR has "magic more in the equivalent of the Christian God, My God. It is not a spell or something learned, it is a divine supernatural power given to make the world go round. Tolkien believed in God and was a Catholic and so I think that he designed the power of middle earth not to be an occult like magic but a divinely given "magic", And so the Ainur, Elves and a little bit with men and dwarves have that supernaturally given power and not the Hogwart's school of witchcraft and wizardry power.

P.S. I do not intend to start an HP debate here. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] The page most likely would end up getting closed. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Mornie Alantie]

Another thing is that when Galadriel is showing Sam and Frodo the mirror she says something along the lines of "this would be what you call Elven magic, though I don't understand what exactly that means," Hereby she is pointing out it is not an power she aquired by long hours of study.

[ainur]

I agree whole-heartedly with Iarwain. The substance of Arda is the Music of the Ainur, made real by the Imperishable Flame, and music is an art that anyone can learn, though some have more talent than others. It stands to reason that the Valar (and Maiar and the various others of the Ainu who descended into Arda) would have more of this ability than any others, for they were part of it's composition. The elves, too, would have greater ability, for they are more bound to Arda, and therefore the Music, and do not depart, even upon their death. They simply go to Mandos and wait, either to be reborn, or for the end of Arda. But Man was given strange gifts: Death (real death--departing from Arda) and the ability to govern things as they will, despite the wishes of the Valar or even Iluvatar (in other words, Free Will.) Both these gifts serve to seperate Man from the Fate and substance of Arda, the Music of Arda. It stands to reason, then, that Man would be less "in tune" with the Song, and have less skill at Magic in the realm of Arda.

I honestly believe that this is the way Tolkien perceived of magic in Middle Earth. It always seems to involve a sort of "tapping into" the Music of the Ainur, or repeating it in some way or merely listening to it. Luthien sings songs of enchantment, Galadriel's mirror is made of water ("And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in the Earth"--Ainulindale) and every word out of Tom Bombadil's mouth, whether song or prose, demands a melody. Even the One Ring seems to sing to It's bearer, like a tune getting stuck in your head (poor Gollum--hundreds of years in a cave hearing "This is the song that never ends . . . Yes, it goes on and on my friends . . ."). The magic of Arda is the substance of Arda and that substance is Song.

[Birdland]

Another thing is that when Galadriel is showing Sam and Frodo the mirror she says something along the lines of "this would be what you call Elven magic, though I don't understand what exactly that means," Hereby she is pointing out it is not an power she aquired by long hours of study.

Actually, Mornie, I could see this in another way. For instance, if I build a radio, and turn it on in front of someone who has no concept of what a radio is, they might refer to the radio as "magic".

But I would think of it as a developed skill. The radio is not magic, and it is not controlled by any "power" that I contained within myself. It is simply understanding how a radio works, and knowing which parts to use in order to build one.

This is what I think of when Galadriel states that she does not understand the Hobbits use of the word, "magic". She has used natural elements to "build" a object that would enable her to conduct information to others. This suggests study and skill.

But if Galadriel could see these events on her own, if she can foresee the future or understand the minds of others around her, without the aid of an object such as her mirror, then I would regard this as a "power".

P.S. - Ainur - great post! And welcome to the Downs.

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Mornie Alantie]

I do agree Birdland on that. If Galadriel used the magic, type magic she would have most likely realized it. You are right in the fact that if an deep jungle dweller came and I showed them something like a blender, he would most likely relate it to magic and not sience. So in the books it is realated in the same way how different cultures like hobbits thought the ordinary skills of the elves to be magic, magic. Whereas it was just that power

Say what you will, but a sword that glows in the presence of enemies is undeniably magical.

Personally, I find Tolkien's conservative use of magic to be tasteful. As anyone who's ever played an RPG such as AD&D can attest, there must be limits on the use of magic or else the story just falls apart.

[burrahobbit]

I definitely see a lack of “occult” type magic, as in incantations and witch’s brews. The stock staple of most fantasy is that magic is a learned skill. A wizard is someone who has learned how to cast spells

Gandalf did that all the time. Gandalf once new all of the spells for opening doors, but he seemed to have forgoten some. Gandalf first fights the Balrog with spoken spells, Gandalf trying to hold a door closed and the Balrog trying to open it. Bombadil and the wight also have spells, I would assume that they needed to learn them. There are a number of learned spells and "witch's brews" all over tLotR. It's magic any way you slice it. Galadriel may make her things by skill and craft and art, but where does anything say that magic isn't a skill or an art or a craft? Even one of the names of magic disagrees with you: witchcraft.

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Iarwain]

Thanks for the responses everyone! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I'm happy that I've gotten across.

Ainur, I disagree on one point in your explaination. The Music of the Ainur and the great themes of Iluvatar is the matter of which Middle Earth is made of, I agree, but I think that power is a demonstration not of a being's ability to interpret the music, but his or her own part in the music. Think of it like a great symphony: While traces of the Ainur themselves can be found throughout entire movements, other races have different parts within the great music. Elves for example, might be like the calm fermattas produced by a group of Violists, and men the brief stacattos of a trumpet. Those who are violent and bent in their earthly ways are evidence of Melkor's discord, which he struck into the music at the beginning of all things. Please do not misunderstand me in thinking that I am proposing that the world was predestined in the great music, I'm merely saying that Iluvatar's themes and Melkor's discord were reflective of what was to come in the history of Arda. So I say that yes, the music is alive in all things in Arda, but it is also living in every being.

Birdland, great logic, but I disagree, I think that rather than knowledge and skill being the reason's for Galadriel's mirror, I think that it was the natural fibre of her own being that allowed her to manipulate the water in such a way that it connected with things that appeared to be unrelated to the Hobbits, but in fact were all things to which the reality of Galadriel extended.

Valarungol, good point, but it can be explained . The elves who forged the swords (Glamdring, sting, Orcrist, etc.) invested some of themselves into it, just as the smiths in Eregion did with the great rings. This gave the swords a power according those who created them, in many cases the ability to glow in the prescense of an enemy. If you use this ideaology, and my "blanket" illustration on the Great Rings themselves, it clearly explains why they give power according to their owner. Frodo was a mortal, a small mortal even, and had very little power over his surroundings, as his part in the music was probably very different that that of someone like Gandalf. This made his being, even with the ring, still pretty weak.

I'm not denying that Gandalf used words of power to make things happen, Burrahobbit, but the door spells were technically not spells any more than the password on your computer is a spell.

Iarwain

[ March 13, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[burrahobbit]

I'm not denying that Gandalf used words of power to make things happen, Burrahobbit, but the door spells were technically not spells any more than the password on your computer is a spell.

It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst to pieces. Something Dark as a cloud was blocking out all of the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the cnamber as well, I think.

Thanks buddy.

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[HerenIstarion]

I surmies you'd be interested to scan through Magic in Middle-Earth thread

[Iarwain]

Oh, that door spell, I thought you were talking about the Moria gate. Okay, true.

Iarwain [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Bill Ferny]

Burrahobbit, its more like a natural ability than a learned skill, though. Gandalf, Tom, the wight, have magical abilities, just as certain elves had the ability to make magical rings and weapons. Abilities can be developed or neglected in the same way that learned skills can be developed or neglected.

A cobbler has the skill to make shoes but just as easily could have learned the skills necessary to make horse-shoes. Both the cobbler and the blacksmith are tradesmen by learned skill. In a typical D&D fantasy setting magic is presented in this manner. This is also the prevalent position taken by the modern occult crowd.

On the other hand, there are natural abilities. Human beings have the natural ability to reason. However, there are those who hone this ability to a higher degree than others. There are some who neglect this natural ability all together.

As far as magic is concerned there seems to be those who were able to hone their natural magical abilities to a higher degree than others. For example, certain elves can make magical items and command the powers of certain magical devices. Apparently there are Istari of various levels of ability. Some types of elves are more magical than others. There is even a certain type of human that can command a degree of natural magical ability, such as the Númenórean kings who could command the Palantirí. But there is absolutely no indication that the Dunlendings, for example, could ever gain such abilities.

I don’t know if I would go so far as to call “magic” in the LotR anything other than magic, though. In the end it was the word chosen by the author. The term “power” doesn’t seem to be specific enough.

I’m looking for a witch’s brew in the corpus, but can’t find one. If you know of one please let me know.

[Mornie Alantie]

Can you give me the words of that spell? or most others that are said in ME. As we said before, Gandalf is a Maia and that is not the same as magic, magic. Most "spells" are just words in elvish that say "door open" if you read the elvish they used for the movie when Arwen is at the river she is just using normal elvish to tell the river (which if we are going to go that far we could say Ulmo) to wash away the ringwraiths.

It is insinuated throughout the whole LOTR world that it is not an occult type magic/power but a divinely given by Illuvitar natural power. When Tolkien rights the word "spells" in his book does it mean that Gandalf spent years in Valinor reading spellbooks and such? No. The Valar and the Maia were given that power specifically by Illuvitar and another lesser power but still great to the Elves.

My whole point is that there is very little "magic" magic in the LOTR.

[InklingElf]

Mornie Alantie:

It is insinuated throughout the whole LOTR world that it is not an occult type magic/power but a divinely given by Illuvitar natural power. When Tolkien rights the word "spells" in his book does it mean that Gandalf spent years in Valinor reading spellbooks and such? No. The Valar and the Maia were given that power specifically by Illuvitar and another lesser power but still great to the Elves.

Exactly [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . Tolkien's 'magic' did NOT have anything to do with occultism... If elves could be representations of angels [other than the likes of Gandalf]-Illuvitar would be the representation of God, who therefore has the authority to give his angels a certain degree of 'magic-like' power. And it is only given to the elves [angels] and not to the likes of man... Sorry if I'm going over my head again, but I hope you catch my drift. There can be no argument that Tolkien did not have occultism in his stories. It's very simple, and he made it even simpler with his letters.

[ March 14, 2003: Message edited by: InklingElf ]

[ainur]

Iarwain--I concede your interpretation of the "Music Theory" makes more sense than mine. Going back to your original question, then, could you then say that 'power' is one's own part in the music, and 'magic' is an interpretation or repetition of the overall theme (-sound? -orchestra? -symphony?)of the Music of the Ainur?

[burrahobbit]

Burrahobbit, its more like a natural ability than a learned skill

Abilities can be developed or neglected in the same way that learned skills can be developed or neglected.

So what you are saying is that even though they are not the same thing, they are actually the same thing.

A cobbler has the skill to make shoes but just as easily could have learned the skills necessary to make horse-shoes.

You see, what the cobbler actually has is a natural ability to swing his arms about, and he has honed and developed this natural ability to be able to pound nails into the soles of shoes, and to cut leather, and to put them all together just right. It's all founded on his natual arm-swinging ability.

In the end it was the word chosen by the author.

I’m looking for a witch’s brew in the corpus, but can’t find one. If you know of one please let me know.

Orc-draught surely must be made of something unpleasant.

Can you give me the words of that spell?

No. Why should I be able to? Gandalf says that he uses spells, that is good enough for me. Im not trying to show what the words to the spells are, only there there were spells.

Most "spells" are just words in elvish that say "door open" if you read the elvish they used for the movie when Arwen is at the river she is just using normal elvish to tell the river (which if we are going to go that far we could say Ulmo) to wash away the ringwraiths.

So? Do you know anything about magic? It used to be that when people used "magic words" they were just using "normal" latin, like Arwen was using "normal" Elvish. (Also, using the movie to prove your point doesn't help, Tolkien didn't write that.)

It is insinuated throughout the whole LOTR world that it is not an occult type magic/power but a divinely given by Illuvitar natural power.

So why isn't that magic?

When Tolkien rights the word "spells" in his book does it mean that Gandalf spent years in Valinor reading spellbooks and such?

I once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves Men or Orcs, that was used for such a purpose. I can still remember ten score of them without searching in my mind.

My whole point is that there is very little "magic" magic in the LOTR.

Equivocation is my favorite, I think.

If elves could be representations of angels

Can't.

And it is only given to the elves [angels] and not to the likes of man

See above.

is one's own part in the music

Only the singers have a part in the music. Men and Elves did not sing.

[Iarwain]

I disagree Bill:
Rather than being able to "hone" your natural abilities, I think that ME power is your born abilities, just as some people are born with a certain level of brain power that differs from others. A person who has an IQ of, say 46 is not likely to bring that number up to more than maybe 55, unless they get a Flowers for Algernon type brain surgery (the equivalent of a ring of power) that raises their IQ a drastic 50 points or more (depending on the person. In the Unfinished Tales, when the choosing of the Istari takes place, what does Gandalf say to Manwe and Varda? He says that he is weak, and I seriously doubt that it is due a lack of "honing" on his part. He is a lesser spirit, not a lazy maia. I use the term power merely because of the fact that their is a lack of words to fill the descriptive void in the English language.

Bravo, Mornie, I agree. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] It is most definately not occultic power, it is a lesser version of Devine Omnipotence, created by Iluvatar.

Inkling, nice icon, again. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Good analogy. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

That's all for now,
Iarwian

[Iarwain]

Bravo, Burrahobbit!

Spells are words of power. In other words, Gandalf could easily be talking about the passwords used by Elves Dwarves and Men to shut their doors. Mornie's argument is still valid. When Gandalf, surrounded by wolves in FotR cries out a "spell" to set alight all the trees around him, is he really doing anything more than speaking about fire in Quenya?

To defend my own metafore about the great music, I ask this. Who were the Ainur singing of? It could not all be of trees and rock and air. They sang of the people of middle earth, of the tortures that would take place within Arda. Does it not seem at all odd to you, Burrahobbit, that Tolkien makes a point of describing Melkor's disruption and destruction to the music? He is not about to be cast from heaven as in Paradise Lost. Melkor, in marring the perfection of Iluvatar's vision and the great themes has already done his greatest harm. He has stated his malice, all that remains after Ainulindale is to act it out. Men and Elves did not sing, but they were sung of. They were in the great themes that Iluvatar produced.

Iarwain

[ November 01, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[obloquy]

Magic in Middle-earth is the ability to manipulate unseen forces of nature. The 'natural ability' part of the Elves' magic is that they have a stronger connection to nature and the world than do Men, which is one of very few distinctions between the two races. The Ainur have an even stronger connection to the unseen fabric of reality because they played a part in its creation. Think of a computer system: the programmers know the system intimately and can thus manipulate it to the maximum possible degree, and on a level beyond the Graphical User Interface. There's also a learned aspect to Middle-earth magic, because this ability to manipulate reality is available to everyone if they only develop it. Of course, the availability doesn't do Men much good when they have such a short span to develop this power, and when their connection to the fabric of reality is rather puny. So the magic wasn't given to Elves, it was just that Elves had the right stuff to learn it, and plenty of time. The Ainur played this or that part in the creation of the world, so their influence over a certain type of physical creation is the 'unseen force' I mentioned. Melkor put his fingers in nearly everything, so nearly everything can be manipulated for evil by those who know how to invoke the Melkor element. Ulmo was the God of Waters, so doing 'water magic' consists of learning to call upon that little bit of Ulmo that was in the water of Middle-earth. That's what Elrond did. It's just about 'knowing the language' of the spiritual aspects of creation.

[Salocin]

I believe the word you are looking for is not power but virtue. Elves are given more "virtue" than men and Valar and Maia are given even more. This comes from the idea that middle earth "magic" is a granting of a measure of power/virtue from Eru to others.

I think that it was the natural fibre of her own being that allowed her to manipulate the water in such a way that it connected with things that appeared to be unrelated to the Hobbits, but in fact were all things to which the reality of Galadriel extended.

I would disagree. She was able to make the water reveal images, but she was not able to control what images they showed. She got this power from her ring which was the ring of water. The ring served as sort of an amplifier for her inate virtue as well being able to channel it in certain ways. Obviously a hobbit would not be able to use the ring in such a way. This would be explained as there "base" virtue being significantly lower so even with the multiplier of the ring they would not have much power. I doubt even an ordinary elf would be able to use the ring in the ways Galadrial could. I think you got it right when you said

If you use this ideaology, and my "blanket" illustration on the Great Rings themselves, it clearly explains why they give power according to their owner. Frodo was a mortal, a small mortal even, and had very little power over his surroundings, as his part in the music was probably very different that that of someone like Gandalf. This made his being, even with the ring, still pretty weak.

.

[Iarwain]

Okay, I see, Salocin. I forgot to factor in the ring. But, she does say that she could control what the mirror shows, she merely said that it is better to let it show you what it would. How's this:

I think that it was the natural fibre of her own being, tied to the power of the ring, that allowed her to manipulate the water in such a way that it connected with things that appeared to be unrelated to the Hobbits, but in fact were all things to which the reality of Galadriel, or Nenya itself extended. This is why seemingly random visions appeared, because all were related to the rings of power, to which Frodo was bound through his possesion of the One. Because of the fact that Galadriel possessed Nenya, a great ring, the mirror had an immensely greater range of vision, because the ring was tied into a sort of network through the One Ring, and therefore all things related to all the rings were possible sights in the mirror.

I hope that isn't too confusing, I'm thinking as I write, so perhaps it didn't come out so well.

Iarwain

[Bill Ferny]

Burrahobbit, if you are unable or unwilling to see the obvious distinction between a human’s ability of locomotion or reason and learned skills such as riding a horse, making shoes, designing websites, etc… then there’s no need to continue the discussion along those lines. How is orc draught a witch’s brew? Witch’s brews are usually whipped up in a cauldron, not drawn from barrels. Calling something a draught (or draft) is an obvious insinuation that it is an alcoholic beverage. Surely you don’t believe that employees at Anheiser-Bush wear black robes and pointed hats?

Iarwain, I do not disagree with you about varying degrees of natural ability. Equality does not exist in reality. On the other hand, natural abilities can be improved via habit. She who employs herself in activities that are physically demanding will improve her natural physical abilities of locomotion, dexterity or strength. Similarly, she who employs herself in mental activities will improve her natural ability to reason. The point I was attempting to make in context is that like learned skills, natural abilities can be improved. That doesn’t make them the same thing.

There's also a learned aspect to Middle-earth magic, because this ability to manipulate reality is available to everyone if they only develop it.

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. There is no indication from the corpus that hobbits can directly employ elven magic (making a magic blade as opposed to using one) or the magic native to the Istari. There is no indication from the corpus that the Dunlendings could eventually learn to use the Palantíri, or make lembas. However, if you can find a direct quote that supports this thesis, I’ll be more than willing to change my mind.

Salocin, the mention of virtue is provocative. However, virtue (in the classical sense) is not something that is granted, it is something that is practiced. Virtue is habit. Likewise, it does not explain the magical powers possessed by Melkor or Sauron or the balrog, unless we call their activities the practice of virtue.

[Iarwain]

To defend my own metafore about the great music, I say this. Who were the Ainur singing of? It could not all be of trees and rock and air. They sang of the people of middle earth, of the tortures that would take place within Arda. Does it not seem at all odd to you, Burrahobbit, that Tolkien makes a point of describing Melkor's disruption and destruction to the music? He is not about to be cast from heaven as in Paradise Lost. Melkor, in marring the perfection of Iluvatar's vision and the great themes has already done his greatest harm. He has stated the his malice, all that remains after Ainulindale is to act it out. Men and Elves did not sing, but they were sung of. They were in the great themes that Iluvatar produced.

I was rereading the thread just now, and I realized something I left out of the above post.

Look at the existence of Arda in three levels:

Creation (Ainulinale, the Great Themes of Iluvatar)
Existence (the Living history of Middle-Earth, all of the tales told in the books that take place within Arda)
Rapture (post Dagor Dagorath, the final music of Arda, when all men, elves, ainur, and (possibly) dwarves are gathered before Iluvatar to sing anew the Great Music of Creation.

These are the necessary states of existence for Arda, and without one the others cannot possibly exist. When you, Burrahobbit, say that Men and Elves were not involved in the music, you are thinking solely of the beginning. You must take into consideration the fact that every beginning not only has an existence, but an end. In this case the end is imperitive. In the end we realize the reality that all of the people that have lived in Arda exist. After the Dagor Dagorath, all are taken from Arda and sing in an innumerable host before the throne of Eru. Then, Burrahobbit, we can most definately say that Men and Elves are not only sung of, but do sing themselves in the great music.

Iarwain

[Magician of Nathar]

Some say there is a line between normal "magic" and Tolkien's magic, some say there isn't. Well, it really depends on how you define the word "magic". If magic simply means things that can't be explained by our current knowledge, then no, there isn't a line. If you want to define "magic" to the specific degree of chanting spells and have some kind of a ritual, yes then there is a line. Whether you see the line or not completely depends on your point of view. For me I don't think magic is anything different from building a skyscraper and flying a spaceship. If you show those things to people from medieval time, or better, Middle Earth, they would scream "magic" in your face. I also believe those so called "magic" and supernatural things can be explained scientifically if you tried.

[The Saucepan Man]

This thread is entitled "Magic v Power". Surely these concepts are not mutually exclusive. And surely, they both cover a multitude of concepts in themselves.

Take power. Now, that can mean physical power, such as that displayed by Tulkas or Broromir. It can mean magical power, such as that imbued in items such as the One Ring, the Elven Rings or Glamdring, or displayed by the likes of Galadriel and Gandalf. Or it can me the power of resilience and friendship, such as that displayed by Sam, Merry and Pippin.

So, magic is a form of power. But, what is "magical power"? Well, we have magical items, such as the Rings, Galadriel's Mirror, the Palantiri, Elven Rope and magical weapons such as Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting. Each of these items was imbued with magical abilities by their makers. Some, such as the weapons and the rope, can be used by anybody. Others, such as the Rings and the Palantiri, can be used to varying degrees of effect, depending upon the qualities of the wielder. Others, such as Galadriel's Mirror, it seems, can only be used by one person, or a select few.

What of the magical powers of individuals? Well, some seem to be a natural, innate ability, such as the telepathy used by the Eldar. Other magical abilities seem to be more of the learnt kind, which might require words of command or ingredients to make them work. The Witch King, for example, was a great sorceror before becoming enslaved by his Ring. I always imagined that human sorcerors such as this learnt their craft and, perhaps, needed "props" to make their spells work. The Istari seem to have used a combination of magical powers. They surely had innate magical abilities, but they also required items to assist them in discharging (some of?) their magical abilities. Their staves, for instance. And Gandalf had the Ring of Fire which, no doubt, enhanced his natural abilities. We are also told that Gandalf learnt "spells" while in ME, which he used to assist him in his mission. And what of Beorn? We are told that he was a magician of sorts. But was his shape-changing an innate magical ability, or was it an acquired skill, performed through the use of "spells"?

It seems to me that the word "magic" in JRRT's works covers a variety of concepts, from the "spell-based" magic performed by human sorcerors such as the pre-Wraith Witch King to the "psychic" abilities used by the likes of Galadriel. It also refers to magic items, which might be used by anyone, or only by one or a select few. And similarly, they could presumably be made either by those who had innate magic ability or by those who learned their craft. Or also by those who had special skill which would not necessarily be considered "magical". Mithril arnmour, for example, might be considered a kind of magical armour, but it was made by Dwarves from a naturally occuring substance (some have likened it to Aluminium). So "magic" here is not referring to an innate ability or to any kind of "spell", but to a scientific method of treatment.

So, I see magic in JRRT's works as covering different types of ability. Yes, some are innate. Others are learnt, either as a scientific method, or as spells possibly requiring words of command or ingredients. And all are a kind of power, just as someone who has a hefty sword in their hand and the ability to use it has power of a kind.

[Bill Ferny]

Iarwin, you’ve thrown me off. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

For me I don't think magic is anything different from building a skyscraper and flying a spaceship. If you show those things to people from medieval time, or better, Middle Earth, they would scream "magic" in your face.

I seriously doubt everyone would. Lack of scientific knowledge does not negate intelligence. For example, contrary to popular belief remote tribes in New Guinea do not worship Coke bottles.

I do see what you are saying, though. For elves, magic isn’t magic at all, it belongs to them by nature.

However, elves aren't exactly natural. Elves are preternatural, and so their magical abilities are preternatural. Elves, Gandalf, Saruman, the balrog, Sauron, even Smaug, orcs, trolls, ents, dwarves and hobbits are all preternatural. Magical abilities may belong to them by definition, but these abilities remain preternatural. Galadriel may not understand the word “magic”, but magical she is. If we call these magics supernatural powers, then I think we run the risk of reducing magic to grace. If that is the case, then magic does not belong to these creatures by definition.

(Retraction: How can we seriously say that anything belongs "naturally" to creatures that are in their very essence preternatural? In the above posts, I’ve changed my mind about the wording: “belongs to them by definition” is much clearer than “naturally”.)

I also believe those so called "magic" and supernatural things can be explained scientifically if you tried.

I will renounce with my last dying breath, such a belief. At a little grotto in a place called Lourdes, back on a cool October day in ‘87, all my doubts about the supernatural were dispelled.

[Iarwain]

Glad to have both of your comments, Saucepan and Narthar. It is definately time to provide a definition for each term.

I consider Magic to be the use of spells, incantations, or other occultic means for to make something happen, physical or not.

Power is, as you say, a very broad term, as it covers every form of control over both man and nature. The reason I have chosen to use the word Power is that though there is a difference between Tolkien's brand of magic and the magic used by a more classical magician, there is no word to specifically describe that difference, that my reason for starting this thread; to discern from Tolkien and the occult. Therefore, when the term "power" is used in this thread, I presume that the person is describing Tolkien's brand of magic, not the book definition of power (which has many meanings indeed).

Now that that explaination has been given, the debate begins, that is the debate over whether power is a divine gift, a learned skill, or a practice dealing with props.

If you read my previous posts, I have already explained my view on the "magical items", such as the Rings, the Mirror, and swords such as Orcrist and Glamdring. If you read those posts, my method for explaination is easily applicable to the Elven Rope and Palantiri. Why they seem to work differently for different people is very understandable. Allow me to use the following illustration:

Each being is woven into the very fibre of Middle-Earth, and has connections to threads around it that others might lack. This is the sort of power that I speak of. To use the same illustration, we might say that a world with traditional magic in it is like a patchwork quilt with several invisible squares, holding the world together, but in a way that is impossible to really understand.

Now, you may or may not agree with that illustration, but in either case, it is the base of my argument, so bear with me. I believe that in Middle-Earth, spells are useless. All nonphysical activity involves one's innate "power". Therefore, when you speak of the Morgul King being a sorcerer, I believe that his nonphysical activities were not invoked by his own being but by some twisted maiar that Sauron sent to twist his ways and make him bent. The staves of the Istari were nothing but symbolic of their status. Gandalf lived though his staff was broken in moria, and defeated the Balrog without it. Saruman did not loose any of his potency because of the breaking of his staff, but because of the squandering of his spirit. This is the same thing that weakened Morgoth and Sauron over the years. They invested their spiritual potency in the torment of others, they squandered it in their attempts at global rule, and in the end, all three of them fell. Oh, how I wish you could just jump inside my head, so I wouldn't have to explain this all! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Beorn could have been a Maia, which his existence most closely resembles, or he could be merely another unexplained existence, like Tom Bombadil.

I'm sure that the preceding paragraphs are a jumbled mess, but they'll just have to do for now, because my brain is overflowing with ideas and information that I cannot right now put down without much confusion and difficulty. Basically, I hold the the theory that the Magic in middle earth is one hundred percent innate ability that is merely distributed among objects.


Iarwain

P.S. Bill, it may just be due to the circumstances listed above, but you've completely lost me in your last post. Did I really say those things?

P.P.S. Did the spring at Lourdes deny you, Bill? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ March 15, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

[Bill Ferny]

My last post was in response to Nathar, really. I’m sort of in agreement with you when you say that magic is 100% innate ability in Middle Earth. Even though it may resemble at times occult magic or divine intervention, magic can only be directly predicated to magical characters or creatures.

I’m a little leery of saying magic is like a divine gift, or powers granted by Illuvitar as an addition to a creature’s state of being (like grace). But I’m not sure if you are saying this. Secondly, I understand your illustration to mean that there are layers of reality, some accessible to only a few, and access to these other layers of reality, the ability to tap into various connections, is what constitutes magic or Power in Middle Earth. I’m not sure if I agree with that.

PanMan, while it is always possible for anyone to use certain magical items, it certainly is not possible for anyone to create them. Study as much as they like, hobbits could never learn the spells that Gandalf learned.

[Iarwain]

Okay, Bill, the brain has cleared. I'm glad to know that we agree.

I definately do not think that power is like grace. I think it is a gift given according to race. You do not gain it or practice it like virtue.

Iarwain

[The Saucepan Man]

PanMan, while it is always possible for anyone to use certain magical items, it certainly is not possible for anyone to create them. Study as much as they like, hobbits could never learn the spells that Gandalf learned.

Yes, Bill, I agree. While I believe that it was open to individuals without any innate magical ability, such as Men, to learn sorcery, this would only apply to those with an aptitude for doing so. Hobbits seem to have a natural resilience to magic (hence their talent as Ringbearers) which no doubt precludes any likelihood of them becoming sorcerors ...

... presumably that's why in D+D, you could never have a Hobbit Magic-User. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]