Elven Technology - how did they do it?

[lindil]

I have given a bit of thought to this topic and would love to hear the thoughts of others.
feel free to draw from real life sources and idea's not just ME
The Osanwe - Kenta is one such example [by JRRT himself]
btw it does not need to be confined to Elves .Dwarves, Ents and Numenoreans were involved in 'magic' better called 'Enchantment' [an excellent distinction between them exists in ' On Fairy - Stories'].

below is anedit of my post to ' Silima' which has a bit of my thinking on the question.


I would hazard that the Silmarills and silima were a combination of
the stuff that Noldorin gems were made out of [which was 'common'
lore in Noldorin gem smith circles] and the energies produced by
Feanor's meditations upon them and the 2 Trees .
It is said that Feanor knew more of the Valinorean tounge [the
atual language of the Valar and Maiar -not Valinorean Quenya]
than anyother of the Elves - but did not share his lore , and so I
would not be suprised if the essence of these words [of whom
probably he alone may have used in gem craft] 'unlocked' the
physical substance and that by long ,very long meditation on them
while exposing the silima to the light of the trees , he was able to
effect a blending of the Noldorin gem-lore and the Light of the
Trees .
The palantiri and the Noldorin lamps were lesser essya on the same
theme.

In this he approached a level of co-creation nearly equal that of the
Valar
themselves, and this was his undoing ; that he forgot that w/ out
Eru
and the Valar he would have had nothing with which to begin his
works, or indeed any native skill.
With the Silmarills he had gone as far as his energies and creative abilities
[and perhaps the very nature of Elves] woiuld allow but like the
Numenoreans who had 'more' on all levels , he was the least
content
of all in the realm of Arda .
He had learned the art of capturing Light , but he remained on
some levels a stranger to it in his heart.


Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.'

[enep]

What sort of technology are you talking about, lindil? Stuff resembling silima and other misc. metals/crafts?

I always wondered how the Dwarves excavated Moria. Using a pick and shovel with a workforce of 30,000 dwarves (Khazad-dum topic ref) that would take ages, judging by the size of the halls and the depth of the tunnels described.

The Numeroneans...(spelling) how did they do Minas Anor? Minas Ithil? How did they excavate Isengard? More questions. 50,000 strong Numeroneans, boring into a mountain?

- enep

[Suldaledhel]

Im sure they thought of ways to do these things... although dwarves love working with the earth, I doubt they could (let alone would) excavate moria using picks and shovels.. Im sure they thought of something more efficient.. what that would be I dont know at the moment.. I'll give it some thought..

-Sûldal

~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin-

-=I may be found merrymaking at The Barrow Downs

[lindil]

Yes , those type of material technologies -but also their singing , lembas ,mirovour,the robes of Lorien. The 3 Elven rings etc.
I am just wondering if folks have guesses as to how [within ME or similar things IRW] are done.
A further example: many people have heard stories of feats of yogi's and meditators,martial artists and Ascetics , some of their sciences and disciplines are well documented. For instance if you meditate 3-5 or more hours a day your need for sleep will most likely diminish radically.Sometimes down to just 1 hr. or less. Rqather Elf- like
achievment I would say. Some people [and Ihave met them] gain near miraculous vitality and a 'glow' if you will-from eating only living [raw] foods , they can work many ,many w/ out tiring ,there minds do not fatigue either - and I know of one person who was a singer who undertook a fast of just Water and fruit and juices for a month or so. His voice, whichh was hardly a mess to start w/ became amazingly clear , again I would have called it [nearly Elvish].

Now I know some people find this kind of speculating useless or even dangerous if not just plain stupid, so though I have been thinking on this for a while I hesitated to put this q. up , but as it is something I am always on the look out for I finally gave in.

Lindil is often found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns Silmarillion canon , theories and discussion Forum
'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.'

[Suldaledhel]

I get what your saying now... Hmmmm this sounds suspiciously like an attempt to bring about a master race of elves and elven cities.. Indeed the cloaks of lothlorien have interested me for quite some time.

For each they had provided a hood and cloak, made according to his size, of the light but warm silken stuff taht the Galadhrim wove. It was hard to say of what colour they were: grey with the hue of twilight under the trees they seemed to be; and yet if they were moved, or set in another light, they were green as shadowed leaves, or brown as fallow fields by night, dusk-silver as water under the stars.

Because of this we can only guess what they were made of... Its my own experience that silk is not very warm, but I do believe there are fabrics sheen in appearence that do change color in different lights, if not to the same extent.. I shall have to ask my mom, she knoew an awful lot about fabric.

-Sûldal ~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin-
-=I may be found merrymaking at The Barrow Downs

[lindil]

With most things Elvish , I think it is not just a question of w/ what materials, but how .

Galadriel [?] says something to the effect of "We weave the love we have of our land into all that we do." That is a big part and unfortunately I have to run off to a Shiatsu final so, I can steal no more time from myself. However I will add that this is somewhat related I think to Feanor's fashioning of the Silmarills.


lindil

[Suldaledhel]

Yes well Ive done my fair share and metaphysical/paranormal studies, and I would say that the elves to an extent "charged"; their items with the energies of whatever the items were required to do.. they put the energies of the world around them into the objects fo their craft. Is that what you meant by "enchantment" earlier? I think thats how Fëanor made the Silmarils, by instilling the power and the light of the two trees into them. If you can catch what I mean, for I am being somewhat vague..... I think I could explain better, if better explanation is needed. Let me rethink and rephrase my thoughts for now if you dont mind

-Sûldal
~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin-
-=I may be found merrymaking at The Barrow Downs

[Sharkû]

Interludium: Of Dwarves

Regarding the building and excavating of the dwarven cities, Gimli's comments on the glittering caves of Aglarond make me think that dwarves tended stone and mountains not unlike elves may have tended trees.

Gimli talks of the growth of stone, and the various compositions of minerals which all demand unique care.
Speculative as this may be, but I can well imagine dwarves calculating the further growth of ore veins and then using the least possible physical force on it while still achieving maximum excavating effect.

And who knows what else they may have used on stones and minerals: chemicals? Dwarf-magic ? Or did they 'only' have a method of finding existing underground caves and caverns from above or from a distance, and then only used and customized the caves?


Ah, listen to them... the children of the night... what sweet music they make...

[Suldaledhel]

Re: Interludium: Of Dwarves

The last posibility sounds most likely... I would imagine that they just expanded upon an already present cave.. I dont think they just decided to carve a cave 30,000 pick axes or not.. Who knows.. praps the dwarves had a rudimentary (spelling?) knowledge of some natural chemical that would dissolve the stone (such as limestone)or such

-Sûldal
~"See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin-
=I may be found merrymaking at The Barrow Downs

[enep]

Re: Interludium: Of Dwarves

The 'charging' theory works for me. We know that the elves are the most blessed of Illuvatar's creations, that they have the most talent and 'inner light' so to speak. So why couldn't they transform this light and talent into really spiffy cloaks and gems?

Maybe the dwarves built Moria by gnawing at the rock with their teeth. That has to be it.

- enep

[Gilthalion]

Re: Interludium: Of Dwarves

Whoopsie! Double post. But since I've had another thought regarding means of excavating Moria other than pick and shovel (which discussion is in the next post) let me put this thought here.

There is thought that the egyptians would carve a block from a quarry by chisling a slot and then pounding wedges until the stone split along the created fault. I think that similar methods are still used.

Similar methodology might be employed by the dwarves. I'm thinking diamond cutting precision, rather than brute labour (which discussion is in the next post).

I like to employ math on the brute labour type of solution because if that proves possible, any improvement makes the event more likely. If the dwarves were splitting stone and hauling off blocks for use elsewhere, this makes more sense and reduces labour considerably. But as my next post demonstrates, even if they went at it like the slaves of the orcs, wasting time, resources, and energy, the dwarves still could mine away and excavate all of Moria over the centuries.



~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~

[Gilthalion]

Re: Interludium: Of Dwarves

One could quibble over terminology, but I think you guys have the right idea in general about Elvish magic/technology. Consider the nature of Feanor's language skills. Language is merely a map of reality/perception. The greater the skill, the better the understanding. Combine this with some sort of quantum interfacing with the artifact in question and one could conceivably do wonders.

This seems to fit with the way Sauron actually endued the Ring with his own Power, and why Feanor could never make another Silmaril.

Does this play into the "fading" of the elves?


As for the excavation of Moria, let's examine this mathematically. (I'm more comfortable with Dwarvish tech.)

The average coal miner in Appalachia was expected, by hand, to mine 16 tons of coal (according to Tennessee Ernie Ford). Let's for the sake of argument, say the dwarvish worker was expected to mine only 1 ton of solid stone each day.

If the stone has a specific gravity of 2 (twice that of water), then a ton of stone would occupy a volume of about 16 cubic feet (I think!).

To excavate a hall 100 ft by 40 ft by 10 ft (40,000 cubic feet) would take one dwarf 2,500 days or six years 308 days.

1000 dwarves would finish by lunch on the third day.

Of course, this mathematics breaks down when you consider that you can't get all 1000 dwarves to work at one time. You would have to start with only a couple, then four, eight, etc.

<pre> Day Dwarves FT^3 Total 1 1 16 16 2 2 32 48 3 4 64 112 4 8 128 240 5 16 256 496 6 32 512 1008 7 64 1024 2032 8 128 2048 4080 9 256 4096 8176 10 512 8192 16368 11 1024 16384 32752 </pre>

They would finish the hall on the morning of the 12th day.

If you had 1000 such halls, and a limit of 30,000 dwarves, as suggested above, then it could take on the order of 100 days. That assumes no fancy work, halls, corridors, just plain mining.

Add frills and carvings and clever architecture and you can take your time.

But many hands make work light, and industrious motivated dwarves can do much. They had unmolested centuries to work with.

I don't see a problem. Especially if you consider that they would have made use of natural caverns as extensively as possible.

~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage~~~

[Suldaledhel]

Re: Interludium: Of Dwarves

With all those numbers and theories, how can one argue!! Now that I have had a day to better organize my thoughts, I believe I can further explain my theories of elven enchantment..

We know that the elves are the most blessed of Illuvatar's creations, that they have the most talent and 'inner light' so to speak. So why couldn't they transform this light and talent into really spiffy cloaks and gems?

As was said by enep, the elves possessed a great inner light, now as we know the elves had powers over the world they lived in as
displayed by Elrond (the flooding of the river to save Frodo) and also by Glorfindel at the same occurence, although a different aspect. Now with displays as this, it is assumed that the elves have much knowledge about physically manifesting their inate "abilities".

With this given information, it is no big wonder that alot of items that were made by elves are "enchanted" to an effect. Even the lembas (as mentioned before) seem to last for ages without decrease in quality, much as the elves linger about. The cloaks too seem to have been infused with some enchantment allowing the wearers to blend in with whatever environment they were in.
Miruvor too seemed to be enchanted, being strong and relieving weariness.

But one can also argue that the other races of Middle Earth also possessed some of these abilities. As with the miruvor, the orc-draught relieved weariness, although in a much harsher manner. But of course if there was an 'enchantment' over this, it would only be natural for an orc fashioned item (or beverage in this case) have the harsh nature of the maker. This would also be present in the Rings, and would explain why the One is so corruptive to evil, because it takes the "properties" of the maker (or rather the one who infuses it)

I think that should do it for now.. answer your question of how Lindil? I can explain further if needed (I love explaining myself )

-Sûldal
~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin-
-=I may be found merrymaking at The Barrow Downs

[Mister Underhill]

Re: Interludium: Of Dwarves

Nice math, Gil. I suspect the Dwarves had some access to "enchantment" as well. What about those Moria gates?

[red]

Go, Sud, Go!!

200, Sud! Way to go!

-réd


"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit

[Suldaledhel]

Re: Go, Sud, Go!!

Thanks Sil!! Only 6 more to go yourself

I suspect the Dwarves had some access to "enchantment" as well. What about those Moria gates

As I said before, Im sure the other races had access to the same 'knowledge' that the elves had about enchanting items.. The dwarves and all their metal and gem craft, and the gates of Moria. Hmmm I wonder if praps the gates were not enchanted by the means I am mentioning, but rather a seal or some other magic, such as Gandalf's door spell when the fellowship was in Moria. If not, then some other questions arrise in my mind concerning the ways of the wizards of ME. But that goes off the topic completely. I would also assume that men and even hobbits (??) had such capabilities even if they werent mentioned of being utilized.



-Sûldal
~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin-
-=I may be found merrymaking at The Barrow Downs

[Gilthalion]

Hobbit Magic?

There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.

*Emphasis mine.

I think by extension, this might also apply to Men. It doesn't feel Tolkienish to think of Men or Hobbits having any natural magical ability, other than foresights and healing (Aragorn) and luck. In Aragorn's case, we've got a noble elvish kindred thing going, too.

Dwarves and Elves are special cases, I think.

If you ever see Men (or Hobbits) working magic, I'll just about bet you there's wickedness afoot!

(Don't ask me to explain Beorn or Bombadil!)

http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000 My Bare Bones Webpage

[red]

Re: Hobbit Magic?

Not only 'afoot', but close at hand! And perhaps even in your face!

-réd

"He was as noble and as fair in face as an elf-lord, as strong as a warrior, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer."

-A Short Rest, The Hobbit

[Suldaledhel]

Re: Hobbit Magic?

Alright I stand corrected.. thanks for the emphasis Gil Hmm Im sure men have it too, but I will most definately agree with you that dwarves and elves have a special flare for this though. Elves I can see why, dwarves maybe because they came before man, thus having more time interacting with the elves? Sorry to change the topic somewhat. Once again just my views

-Sûldal
~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin-
-=I may be found merrymaking at The Barrow Downs

[Imp]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> ...

&quot;but I will most definately agree with you that dwarves and elves have a special flare for this though. Elves I can see why, dwarves maybe because they came before man, thus having more time interacting with the elves?&quot;

Sud I do not think Dwarves natural (magical to others) abilties have anything to do with their interacting with elves. I believe each race has a certain natural ability, even Hobbits.

Like when the Hobbits were amazed with Galadriel's actions, she told them something along the lines of this: &quot;Your folk would call this magic&quot; or something like that. Meaning it was natural to Galadriel but considered magic to others.

Hell I don't know *looks drowsy* good night, lol.

</p>

[lindil]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> the races and 'magic'

Hobbits were expressely stated to be 'amagical' if you will while the dunedain were capable of 'magical' swords although Boromir's was not apparently of this caliber -which suggests to me that perhaps the northern dunedain learned from the Noldorin smith remants of Eregion [ or?] that dwelt in rivendell [some of high enough caliber remained to reforge anduril/narsil. The consruction of Isengard is also seemingly of supranormal construction. But Numenorean magic seems relatively rare [JRRT in one of the letters seeems to feel he should have never come up w/ the idea] . Black magic however seems to be more easily had among men .

In Middle-Earth as has been stated by others enchantment that is not diabolical is a natural skill arising fro m the 'being ' or natureof the race or individual.

and i agree it must have been in many cases an energetic and 'conciousness/intention' charging of the objects or woven into the crafts, and in some cases the raw materials at a variety of stages .


lindil

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000427>GM Lint</A> at: 2/26/01 5:28:23 am

[Imp]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

&quot;the dunedain were capable of 'magical' swords although Boromir's was not apparently of this caliber&quot;

Boromir was dunedain?! Maybe it was a typo?

Perhaps the younger races have not discovered their natural (magical to others) abilities thus far. Even Men, of course that probably could be attributed to their shorter life-spans and other possible reasons.

</p>

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

Well maybe the elves learned a thing or two while living in Valinor??

-Sûldal ~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin- -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a>=- </p>

[Imp]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

Ya think? LOL

</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

Gilthalion here.

I don't think that there was very much &quot;natural&quot; or &quot;good&quot; magic built into Men, if we are defining that as some enduement of power and purpose into the fabrication of articles.

The Numenorians of the royal line of Elros, and their collateral relations by blood, would have eventually formed a small but significant portion of the island populatation. (Please don't make me do the math!)

One might expect the descendants of Elros among men to thus not only have longer lives, but other Elvish qualities as well. Such longer-lived, more &quot;talented&quot; men could be expected to take dominant positions in the Numenorean economy, and be able to bring the natural results of the crafts and practices they developed with them to Middle-earth for the construction of Isengard, swords, etc.

If we consider that the Elves for a time visited Numenor, then it becomes the more likely that such among them as could learn, by &quot;right&quot; of blood (like Aragorn's right to appropriate the Palantir), were taught.



<hr> <center><font size=1>Not much at all to see at http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Website</a></center></p>

[Suldaledhel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

Hmmmmm concerning the dwarves however, it occured to me that when the Naugrim first encountered the Sindar, they already had a love of the earth and its metals and gems. But it was later mentioned that the Naugrim praised the gems of the Noldor the most. And seeing as how Caranthir came into contact with the dwarves, perhaps the dwarves learned everything about &quot;enchanted&quot; items from the elves, mainly the Noldor I would suspect, who came from Valinor.

Also, in the elf-lords topic, it was stated that elves from Valinor had a greater power (was that the term??) than of others. So then maybe the elves learned alot (if not all) of their 'abilities' from living in Valinor. Just a thought <img src=smokin.gif ALT=":smokin">

-Sûldal ~ "See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tounge. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be master of thralls." -Feanor to Fingolfin- -=I may be found merrymaking at <a href=http://www.barrowdowns.com/>The Barrow Downs</a>=- </p>

[Imp]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

&quot;Hmmmmm concerning the dwarves however, it occured to me that when the Naugrim first encountered the Sindar, they already had a love of the earth and its metals and gems. But it was later mentioned that the Naugrim praised the gems of the Noldor the most. And seeing as how Caranthir came into contact with the dwarves, perhaps the dwarves learned everything about &quot;enchanted&quot; items from the elves, mainly the Noldor I would suspect, who came from Valinor.&quot;

The Dwarves already had great skill in the lore of the earth and its metals and gems before they met the Sindar. The Dwarves probably learned different techniques and ideas, but I do not think you could say that they were taught everything by the Elves.

&quot;Also, in the elf-lords topic, it was stated that elves from Valinor had a greater power (was that the term??) than of others. So then maybe the elves learned alot (if not all) of their 'abilities' from living in Valinor. Just a thought&quot;

Maybe in Valinor they had time to be taught, and also learn their own 'natural' abilities.

I do know what you mean, but I do not think we should give credit to the Elves for everything.

</p>

[Aldaron]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: the races and 'magic'

I was most interested in Gilthalion's mathematical take on the dwarves and the vastness of the caves. This entire discussion was pretty fascinating and simply points out that having once read through LotR, all subsequent readings should be taken slowly and thoughtfully. I know that next time I read through the books, I'll be watching for and thinking about some of these topics. Cloaks and special swords and perhaps even the ability to create poems and songs. Thanks.

</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> I have a question.

Was it the elves who made Aragorn's sword?(not evan going to try to spell it i hardly remember the name)*slap self &quot;bad melcor&quot;*
I have always taken it for granit that they did.

</p>

[burrahobbit]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I have a question.

A dwarf made it, elves (probably) put it back together.

What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?</p>

[Imp]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I have a question.

Telchar the Dwarf made it I think, along with alot of other things...

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[enep]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: I have a question.

Telchar did make Narsil, Elendil's sword, along with the Dragon-Helm of Dor-Lomin and Angrist, the knife Beren used to pry out a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown.

Since Aragorn set out from Rivendell with his newly forged sword and Rivendell is some hundreds of leagues form the nearest dwarf settlement (Erebor) then we can safely say that it was reforged i.e. put back together in Rivendell by the Elven smiths, just as talented as any Dwarven smiths.

Btw, interesting math Gil. <img src=biggrin.gif ALT="">


- enep</p>

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> thanks

thanks I am glad you cleard that up!:-)

I did remember it was put back together by the Elvens

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[Gilthalion]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Mathematics

Thanks Aldaron, enep, &amp; others, who appreciated the mathematics.

I just couldn't see having a discussion about technology without a little math!

For another look at math applied to Dwarven needs at Moria, check out this thread: http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=1&t=000163THE BRIDGE AT KAZADDUM</a>

I'm not an engineer, but I can handle a spreadsheet ok, and that makes it rather simple. Just high school math!

Look for these notions (plus your own imaginative ideas!) to be incorporated into forthcoming articles at THE BARROW-DOWNS.

We also took a look at the food chain in The Shire: http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/u...c&f=1&t=000425FARMING &amp; HOBBITS</a>

We've had recipes, discussions about Shire lawn maintenance, and I see other threads I haven't perused!

Makes me want to start a Middle-earth Lifestyles section on THE BARROW-DOWNS...

Any ideas for other applications of math and technology to other Middle-earth questions?

<center> ~~~http://www.geocities.com/robertwgardner2000My Bare Bones Webpage</a>~~~ </center></p>

[Bêthberry]

I completely misunderstood what this might be about.

Enchantment back in the day, or, a blast from the past to mine some old splendors.

Come to think of it, is there much description of the skills and trade of old Cirdan the shipwright?

[Legolas]

Apparently he was just a ship builder, and some elves of his settling mined the sea for pearls, since he gave some to Thingol who passed them on to the Dwarves of Belegost. There are numerous mentions of Cirdan and his people building ships throughout the War of the Jewels.

The Silmarillion:

But the realm of Nargothrond extended also west of Narog to the River Nenning, that reached the sea at Eglarest; and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas. There dwelt those of the Sindar who still loved ships, and Círdan the shipbuilder was their lord; but between Círdan and Finrod there was friendship and alliance, and with the aid of the Noldor the havens of Brithombar and Eglarest were built anew.

For Melian taught them much that they were eager to learn, and Thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls. These Círdan gave to him, for they were got in great number in the shallow waters about the Isle of Balar; but the Naugrim had not before seen their like, and they held them dear. One there was as great as a dove's egg, and its sheen was as starlight on the foam of the sea; Nimphelos it was named, and the chieftain of the Dwarves of Belegost prized it above a mountain of wealth.

[Bêthberry]

Thanks for the quotes, Legolas. I knew those from The Silm, but had forgotten about the pearls. I just wondered if anything in HoME addressed what the ships were like. There's the description of Galadriel's ship in Lothlorien but I couldn't remember anything about the ships that were used to sail west.

Viking-style? Roman galleys? I can't see elves building ships that needed slave rowers, of course. Three masters? Maybe it is simply a reference similar to being a tent-maker or a carpenter, something to establish a trade and vocation that isn't lordly but essential.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I don't know if there are written descriptions of Elven ships, aside from those of Galadriel and Celeborn, but I have one of Tolkien's own paintings which shows one in the book J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator. The watercolour is called Halls of Manwë (Taniquetil) and in the foreground a swan-shaped ship with one sail and four sets of oars can be seen. I shall attempt to find a copy of the painting online and edit this post to include the link if I do.

Link: Book with painting