Did Maeglin had a chance? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Maédhros · 06-04-2002, 03:46 PM

Let's look at the life of Maeglin, did he really had a chance of being good.
His father was Eöl and his mother Aredhel.

Quote:

And Aredhel bore to Eöl a son in the shadows of Nan Elmoth, and in her heart she gave him a name in the forbidden tongue of the Noldor, Lómion, that signifies Child of the Twilight; but his father gave him no name until he was twelve years old. Then he called him Maeglin, which is Sharp Glance, for he perceived that the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own, and his thought could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mist of words.

He had a desire to see Gondolin because of her mother and it was then that he first hears the name of Idril.

Quote:

Yet it is said that Maeglin loved his mother better, and if Eöl were abroad he would sit long beside her and listen to all that she could tell him of her kin and their deeds in Eldamar, and of the might and valour of the princes of the House of Fingolfin. All these things he laid to heart, but most of all that which he heard of Turgon, and that he had no heir; for Elenwë his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë, and his daughter Idril Celebrindal was his only child.

Look at how his father treated him:

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'You are of the house of Eöl, Maeglin, my son,' he said, 'and not of the Golodhrim. All this land is the land of the Teleri, and I will not deal nor have my son deal with the slayers of our kin, the invaders and usurpers of our homes. In this you shall obey me, or I will set you in bonds.' And Maeglin did not answer, but was cold and silent, and went abroad no more with Eöl; and Eöl mistrusted him.

He was even cursed by his own father.

Quote:

But not so Maeglin. My son you shall not withhold from me. Come, Maeglin son of Eöl! Your father commands you. Leave the house of his enemies and the slayers of his kin, or be accursed!'

And look how his loved one thought of him.

Quote:

Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it: an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor.

So, I ask you again, did he really had a chance in his life? He who was forever destined to be hated by the one he loved?

Jessica Jade · 06-05-2002, 04:35 PM

I don't think that he was destined to meet a terrible fate. Elves, like everyone else, have free will. His father was just very posessive of him because he was his only son, not to mention that he hated the Noldor because they were his scapegoat for all the woes of Middle Earth. Idril just did not happen to return his affections...after all, he was her cousin. And sometimes, even when you like someone, you just don't LIKE someone in that way, you know. She probably liked him alright, but disliked the fact that he loved her, because it made her uncomfortable to be loved in that way by someone so closely related. It's unfortunate that Maeglin's jealousy of Tuor overcame his reason and led him to betray Turgon& Gondolin. In fact, maybe it would have been better if Eöl had suceeded in killing him, because then at least Gondolin would not have been destroyed.

[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

The Silver-shod Muse · 06-06-2002, 08:43 AM

You can't really blame Maeglin's going wrong on Eol's treatment. There are plenty of people in our world who are abused both emotionally and physically as children, and most of them turn out alright. Besides, Idril's father (I just forgot his name [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) treated him like a son and more than made up for the mental poisoning he suffered under his father's hand.

[ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

Maédhros · 06-08-2002, 10:56 AM

Yes, in a way Turgon did treated Maeglin as his son, but his was forever shunned by his cousin Idril and had to suffer the death of both his parents. He definitely fought well in the fifth battle, but in the end he succumbed to Morgoth and was slain by Tuor.

Jessica Jade · 06-08-2002, 11:48 AM

Yes...and he did indeed die the same death as his father. Remember when they cast Eöl over the precipice of Caragdúr?(sp?) When Maeglin died Tuor flung him over it too. Ironic that Eöl's curse was right.

I guess Maeglin was pretty valiant and brave and wrought many good swords,etc, but he just should not have let his jealousy of Tuor and desire for Idril get the better of him. I don't think that Idril shunned him, exactly. She just didn't return his enamourous feelings and it made her uncomfortable that her cousin was in love with her.

[ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ]

Guo Si · 06-08-2002, 02:58 PM

First of all, I'd like to congratulate Maedhros on a great topic. Keep up the good work! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Personally, I think that Maeglin had a chance to turn out alright, but a very slim chance. Even though Eol treated him wrongly, I think Maeglin still loved him in a way and his death and Aredhel's may have affected Maeglin's ability to reason well. Also, I'm sure the fact that Maeglin knew that even if Idril had loved him, he still couldn't of done anything messed him up some too. Sure, he did do some valient things, but I think its safe to say that pretty much anyone would have done the same thing as him if they were in the same situation.

06-08-2002, 09:29 PM

Maeglin had the same chance to be good that all the other characters in Middle-earth had. The element of free choice has been mentioned. That his father was hard on him is neither here nor there...many people (both in fiction and in real life) have hard, even cruel parents. What determines the outcome is exactly "free choice" ... how we choose to respond to the circumstances we find ourselves in. And our choices do not exist in a vacuum. Choices have consequences, for the good or for the bad.
What "doomed" Maeglin was not so much his circumstances, but his attitude. Maeglin wanted what Maeglin wanted, without any regard for anyone else. It is his complete self-centeredness, IMHO, that dooms him.

Amarinth · 06-09-2002, 12:05 AM

cogently put, eloin. welcome to the downs!

i agree that whatever maeglin had gone through, in the end it was an inner moral compass that determined what fate he chose for himself. we make plenty of mistakes in life that can reasonably be attributed to the environment we exist in, the dynamics of family and societal relationships- external factors - yet like any human being grown into functional adulthood, we must at some point cease to blame these for our actions and look into our own selves for the answer.

the silver-shod muse had a point there, too, and i agree that maeglin should have had enough growth and fostering in the house of turgon to have handled his future disappointments better, moreso his disappointment with idril. what with his gratitude to turgon for everything, well imho that should at least have mitigated his pain for him. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Amarinth ]

Jessica Jade · 06-09-2002, 08:11 AM

good points, everyone! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] background and circumstances may influence who you are, but you are responsible for who you become.

sorry, but what does IMHO mean??

Lomelinde · 06-09-2002, 09:15 AM

Very nice points about environment and freedom to control one's future. However, in addition to all these, I personally believe that, like Feanor and his sons, Maeglin and Eol were brilliant but probably had a few screws loose; perhaps as the result of Morgoth determined to make Elves miserable.(?) I'm not saying that anyone should blame all their problems on mental illness, but the Elves I mentioned above seemed a little wacked out to me. Just speculation, but an interesting plausibility.

Kin-strife · 06-09-2002, 11:17 AM

Perhaps Maeglin in Gondolin had a feeling of isolation often felt by immigrants in lands, though grander, still more alien and unfamiliar then the ones they were raised in. Being a descendant of the Moriquendi would have seperated him further. I'm sure this would have been alleviated some what by Turgon's great acceptance of him but as Maèdhros said, he had heard, and perhaps though about, Idril before he ever came to Gondolin. Her lack of regard for him may have played up in his twisted mind (twisted by his father?) on his existing insecurities as an outsider in Gondolin. This would be the kind of seed Morgoth would nurture until Maeglin was able to excuse himself for betraying Gondolin. I know I'm reaching here bit its a thought worth mentioning. Any way you look at it, however, the story of Maeglin is a tragic one.

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 06-09-2002, 11:51 AM

Someone mentioned fate eariler. I don't believe in fate. We choose what we do and how we live. Meaglin had chances to be good. Plain and simple.

06-09-2002, 02:14 PM

"Choice, not chance, determines fate"

Maeglin was not a true immigrant in the sense that he went to be with his family...his mother's kin. They were elven like he, and spoke the same language, and had many of the same customs. The change was closer to country cousin moving to the city.
And speaking as an immigrant myself...after a while you settle in and adapt. The language and customs become your own. There is somewhat of a dual nature to oneself, not comepletely like the "natives" because for at least a part of your life, you lack common experience (i.e. what it was like for you as a child in another country would not be what it was like to be a child in your new home so far as circumstances were different).
So, at least for me, it still comes to a matter of choice and of personal disposition (self-centered vs. selfless)

Daniel Telcontar · 06-09-2002, 02:18 PM

I actually believe in fate. Or at least that we all have a destiny, but it is our choice if we choose to. I think Maeglin had a great destiny in Gondolin as one of its leaders. But his greed/lust for Idril clouded his judgement and he made the worst bargain ever. He chose wrong.

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ]

Maédhros · 06-10-2002, 01:28 PM

I think that all of you have made valid points. But what torment it must be for someone to spend all of their lives detested by the person that you love. Tragic.

06-05-2002, 04:35 PM	#2
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	I don't think that he was destined to meet a terrible fate. Elves, like everyone else, have free will. His father was just very posessive of him because he was his only son, not to mention that he hated the Noldor because they were his scapegoat for all the woes of Middle Earth. Idril just did not happen to return his affections...after all, he was her cousin. And sometimes, even when you like someone, you just don't LIKE someone in that way, you know. She probably liked him alright, but disliked the fact that he loved her, because it made her uncomfortable to be loved in that way by someone so closely related. It's unfortunate that Maeglin's jealousy of Tuor overcame his reason and led him to betray Turgon& Gondolin. In fact, maybe it would have been better if Eöl had suceeded in killing him, because then at least Gondolin would not have been destroyed. [ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ] __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

06-06-2002, 08:43 AM	#3
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	You can't really blame Maeglin's going wrong on Eol's treatment. There are plenty of people in our world who are abused both emotionally and physically as children, and most of them turn out alright. Besides, Idril's father (I just forgot his name [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) treated him like a son and more than made up for the mental poisoning he suffered under his father's hand. [ June 06, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ] __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

06-08-2002, 10:56 AM	#4
Maédhros The Kinslayer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 658	Yes, in a way Turgon did treated Maeglin as his son, but his was forever shunned by his cousin Idril and had to suffer the death of both his parents. He definitely fought well in the fifth battle, but in the end he succumbed to Morgoth and was slain by Tuor. __________________ "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."

06-08-2002, 11:48 AM	#5
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	Yes...and he did indeed die the same death as his father. Remember when they cast Eöl over the precipice of Caragdúr?(sp?) When Maeglin died Tuor flung him over it too. Ironic that Eöl's curse was right. I guess Maeglin was pretty valiant and brave and wrought many good swords,etc, but he just should not have let his jealousy of Tuor and desire for Idril get the better of him. I don't think that Idril shunned him, exactly. She just didn't return his enamourous feelings and it made her uncomfortable that her cousin was in love with her. [ June 08, 2002: Message edited by: Jessica Jade ] __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

06-08-2002, 02:58 PM	#6
Guo Si Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: I wanna kiss you but your lips are venomous Posts: 27	First of all, I'd like to congratulate Maedhros on a great topic. Keep up the good work! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Personally, I think that Maeglin had a chance to turn out alright, but a very slim chance. Even though Eol treated him wrongly, I think Maeglin still loved him in a way and his death and Aredhel's may have affected Maeglin's ability to reason well. Also, I'm sure the fact that Maeglin knew that even if Idril had loved him, he still couldn't of done anything messed him up some too. Sure, he did do some valient things, but I think its safe to say that pretty much anyone would have done the same thing as him if they were in the same situation. __________________ Gimme a d00t!

06-08-2002, 09:29 PM	#7
eloin Guest Posts: n/a	Maeglin had the same chance to be good that all the other characters in Middle-earth had. The element of free choice has been mentioned. That his father was hard on him is neither here nor there...many people (both in fiction and in real life) have hard, even cruel parents. What determines the outcome is exactly "free choice" ... how we choose to respond to the circumstances we find ourselves in. And our choices do not exist in a vacuum. Choices have consequences, for the good or for the bad. What "doomed" Maeglin was not so much his circumstances, but his attitude. Maeglin wanted what Maeglin wanted, without any regard for anyone else. It is his complete self-centeredness, IMHO, that dooms him.

06-09-2002, 12:05 AM	#8
Amarinth Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: realm of agonized volcanoes Posts: 113	cogently put, eloin. welcome to the downs! i agree that whatever maeglin had gone through, in the end it was an inner moral compass that determined what fate he chose for himself. we make plenty of mistakes in life that can reasonably be attributed to the environment we exist in, the dynamics of family and societal relationships- external factors - yet like any human being grown into functional adulthood, we must at some point cease to blame these for our actions and look into our own selves for the answer. the silver-shod muse had a point there, too, and i agree that maeglin should have had enough growth and fostering in the house of turgon to have handled his future disappointments better, moreso his disappointment with idril. what with his gratitude to turgon for everything, well imho that should at least have mitigated his pain for him. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Amarinth ] __________________ pity this busy monster,manunkind, not / -progress is a comfortable disease;/ your victim (death and life safely beyond) / plays with the bigness of his littleness ---ee cummings

06-09-2002, 08:11 AM	#9
Jessica Jade Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Tirion upon Túna, Atlanta Posts: 154	good points, everyone! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] background and circumstances may influence who you are, but you are responsible for who you become. sorry, but what does IMHO mean?? __________________ http://www.cadential64.com The musicians had indeed laid bare the youngest, most innocent of our ideas of life, the indestructible yearning for the way things aren't and can never be. ~ Philip Roth, The Human Stain

06-09-2002, 09:15 AM	#10
Lomelinde Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ha! Wouldn't you like to know? Posts: 80	Very nice points about environment and freedom to control one's future. However, in addition to all these, I personally believe that, like Feanor and his sons, Maeglin and Eol were brilliant but probably had a few screws loose; perhaps as the result of Morgoth determined to make Elves miserable.(?) I'm not saying that anyone should blame all their problems on mental illness, but the Elves I mentioned above seemed a little wacked out to me. Just speculation, but an interesting plausibility. __________________ The Dwarf breathes so loud I could've shot him in the dark, drunk, blindfolded and hanging upside down from a tree.

06-09-2002, 11:17 AM	#11
Kin-strife Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dublin, Ireland Posts: 58	Perhaps Maeglin in Gondolin had a feeling of isolation often felt by immigrants in lands, though grander, still more alien and unfamiliar then the ones they were raised in. Being a descendant of the Moriquendi would have seperated him further. I'm sure this would have been alleviated some what by Turgon's great acceptance of him but as Maèdhros said, he had heard, and perhaps though about, Idril before he ever came to Gondolin. Her lack of regard for him may have played up in his twisted mind (twisted by his father?) on his existing insecurities as an outsider in Gondolin. This would be the kind of seed Morgoth would nurture until Maeglin was able to excuse himself for betraying Gondolin. I know I'm reaching here bit its a thought worth mentioning. Any way you look at it, however, the story of Maeglin is a tragic one. __________________ "Come away, O human child!/ To the waters and the wild/With a faery hand in hand,/ For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand."

06-09-2002, 11:51 AM	#12
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	Someone mentioned fate eariler. I don't believe in fate. We choose what we do and how we live. Meaglin had chances to be good. Plain and simple. __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

06-09-2002, 02:14 PM	#13
eloin Guest Posts: n/a	"Choice, not chance, determines fate" Maeglin was not a true immigrant in the sense that he went to be with his family...his mother's kin. They were elven like he, and spoke the same language, and had many of the same customs. The change was closer to country cousin moving to the city. And speaking as an immigrant myself...after a while you settle in and adapt. The language and customs become your own. There is somewhat of a dual nature to oneself, not comepletely like the "natives" because for at least a part of your life, you lack common experience (i.e. what it was like for you as a child in another country would not be what it was like to be a child in your new home so far as circumstances were different). So, at least for me, it still comes to a matter of choice and of personal disposition (self-centered vs. selfless)

06-09-2002, 02:18 PM	#14
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	I actually believe in fate. Or at least that we all have a destiny, but it is our choice if we choose to. I think Maeglin had a great destiny in Gondolin as one of its leaders. But his greed/lust for Idril clouded his judgement and he made the worst bargain ever. He chose wrong. [ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ] __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

06-10-2002, 01:28 PM	#15
Maédhros The Kinslayer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 658	I think that all of you have made valid points. But what torment it must be for someone to spend all of their lives detested by the person that you love. Tragic. __________________ "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."