LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 01 - Minas Tirith

[Estelyn Telcontar]

With this chapter we begin discussing the final book, The Return of the King. Before starting it, I read the synopsis at the beginning of the book - certainly not because I need to be reminded of what happened, but I was curious to see what would be mentioned - or not. I found it interesting to note that Lórien was mentioned only in passing and Galadriel not at all. That makes me wonder who wrote the synopsis - I can't imagine that Tolkien himself would have left her out of any summary of the plot. Has the authorship of the synopsis been mentioned anywhere in HoME? If you've reread the synopsis, what did you notice?

The first chapter begins with the words "Pippin looked..." - a very programmatic start, since it shows us the events through his eyes. The story remains hobbitcentric. It is a long chapter and chockfull of so many things that I find it difficult to choose or condense them into a few paragraphs.

Through Pippin's eyes, we get a deeper look at Gandalf, as well as by the reaction of the Gondorians to his coming. For the first time, he wonders about his true nature and age. What information do we find about the wizard?

We are introduced to Denethor - what impresses you about him? The description of his ability to see events and read minds sounds like Osanwë - does he have innate abilities there, or do you think it's all the palantír?

The city of Minas Tirith is described quite clearly, though I must admit that I didn't take in those details when first reading the book, since I hurried to find out what happened next.

We are also introduced to Beregond and his son Bergil - a nice touch, to get to know some of the "normal" people of the city, not just nobility. These are among the very popular "minor" characters - what do you like about them? Additional names are mentioned as the leaders and their troops come to Minas Tirith.

Most of all, this chapter shows Pippin's growth and development - a coming of age tale, though he still has four years to go by Hobbit standards.

The chapter ends with darkness - the Darkness that begins, forebodingly announced by Gandalf.


(Take your time in reading this long chapter if you wish - we have at least two weeks to discuss it... )

[Boromir88]

I'm just going to pick out a few observations that I noticed when reading the chapter. It's mainly going to deal with Gandalf and Denethor.

"If you understand it, then be content," returned Denethor. "Pride would be folly that disdained help and cousel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy. And to him there is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; and the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again."

"Unless the King should come again?" said Gandalf. "Well, my lord Steward, it is your taks to keep some kingdom against that event, which few now look to see. In that task you shall have all the aid that you are pleased to ask for. But I will say this: the rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor, nor any other, great or small. But all worthy things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. And for my part, I shall not wholly fail of my task, though Gondor should perish, if anything passes through this night that can still grow fair or bear fruit and flower again in days to come. For I also am a steward? Did you not know?"

The full discussion on Gandalf's "stewardness" could be found here. But, notice the difference in the word "steward" that Tolkien uses. Gandalf draws a difference between Denethor's view of "Steward," and Gandalf's "steward."

Denethor's view is he is the absolute ruler of Gondor, he is subordinate to no man, no matter how "worthy" they are. What he says goes, whether Gandalf is a "steward," or no matter how wise/worthy of a man you are, Gondor's rule is "MINE!" Then the sort of throw away comment at the end to try to make up for his "It's mine!...oh...of course unless the King return." Denethor seems much more like the Frankish stewards who had almost the same power as their kings.

Gandalf's view of "steward" is much more different. More of a guardian role. He watches over, and cares for all worthy things. This could explain better why Radagast did not succeed in his "task." The Istari were sent to middle-earth to care for all the people's, all it's things, they were the "stewards" for Eru, and the Valar. Gandalf is the one who does care for all things that are good, and worthy, while Radagast seems to only fall under the care of nature, and birds.

Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard than Gandalf idd, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled....And then his musings broke off, and he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind. But it was Denethor who first withdrew his glance.

From first impressions of Denethor, Pippin thinks that Denethor looks more powerful, and "wizardly" then Gandalf. But, then Pippin realizes it can't be so, and is proven when the two are locked in "mental combat" and Denethor first withdraws his glare. Could this also be foreshadowing? Denethor is arguably has the greatest "mental power" of any mortal during this time (yes even Aragorn), however the key word is he is a mortal. Gandalf and Sauron are on a different level, and when it comes down to it, Denethor just can't contend with them, eventhough that he thinks he can. Is this foreshadowing in that Denethor tries to beat Gandalf, but he withdraws his glance first, then later when Denethor tries to strive with Sauron in the palantir, he just totally loses his mind?

[Encaitare]

Just a few thoughts while I skim the chapter...

I love how humble Pippin is here; and we even get to see a bit of "hobbit pride":

'Man?' cried Pippin, now thoroughly roused. 'Man! Indeed not! I am a hobbit and no more valiant than I am a man, save perhaps now and again by necessity. Do not let Gandalf deceive you!'

It's great when contrasted with his joking threat to Bergil:

'Though you may have taken me for a soft stranger-lad and easy prey, let me warn you: I am not, I am a halfling, hard, bold, and wicked!'

This is interesting:

'He [Denethor] loved him [Boromir] greatly: too much perhaps; and the more so because they were unlike.'

I suppose Denethor was one of those parents who sees his children as the ones who can live out the dreams he never fulfilled, who can do better than he did, except expects a bit too much.

The contrast between the citadel of Minas Tirith and the Great Hall at Meduseld is very markedly given. Pippin notes how there are "no hangings nor storied webs, nor any things of woven stuff or of wood" like there are in Meduseld. Everything here in Minas Tirith is completely carven in stone -- and this seems to be Denethor's mindset, too. He'll maintain the status quo because the course in which the world seems to be going is, to him, inevitable.

Denethor looked indeed much more like a great wizard that Gandalf did, more kingly, beautiful, and powerful; and older. Yet by a sense other than sight Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older.

I like this quote because it proves that appearances aren't everything. As Boromir88 mentioned above, Gandalf's purpose is not to come to Middle-earth in glory and flaunted power and majesty. It's to do the exact opposite: to keep a "low profile" of sorts while helping everyone out. Denethor does not seem to see that -- neither did Saruman.

It's been mentioned in many discussions before, but I just have to say that I adore the line: "For I also am a steward. Did you not know?" This is one of those scenes that I can see perfectly clearly in my mind, and it's a very clever line. It's not quite defiant, but there's a hint of a warning in it, as if Gandalf wants to say that he's going to be working to save Gondor whether Denethor likes it or not.

Pippin's description of Aragorn as "a man who went about with us" strikes me as oddly funny. Obviously he doesn't want to give away any information about Aragorn, but the way he describes him makes the man sound like he just traipses about after the Fellowship, and everyone just humors him even though he's not supposed to be there -- a Fellowship groupie, perhaps.

The closing of the chapter is very grim: "The Darkness has begun. There will be no dawn." Light seems to be one of the simplest human desires; all Sam wants in Mordor is light and water. Now even the hope brought by the sunshine is being taken away -- talk about psychological warfare!

I like seeing things through Pippin's eyes here; it's a sort of Everyman approach that we wouldn't get through, say, Gandalf's eyes, or even from a neutral-voiced narrator. Pippin's reactions seem to be close to how our own (meaning the average person's) would be.

That's all for now... I'm glad to be on RotK now. It's my favorite of the trilogy.

[Mithalwen]

I am going to reread this chapter before I comment deeply, but I would say that it is one of my favourites partly becasue of the information it provides - like the Counciul of Elrond it is a mine of information for those of us whose interest in Middle Earth go beyond what is strictly necessary for the development of the plot. And a consequence Minas Tirith is somewhere with a great deal of substance in my imagination. Strangely, I must admit it was the place I gave up when I first read the book. I had found book 4 alternately to dull or too scary and now not only was the quest seemingly doomed ( how thick was I not to realise the significance of the title of volume 3?!!?), but I was stuck with the members of the fellowship I liked least. I wanted more of Aragorn and Legolas (or failing that Merry) and I was stuck with grumpy Gandalf and Pippin). Faced with many, many more pages without sight of an elf, and lots of horrors, I stopped - but I was very young (10 I think..) so maybe my lack of perseverance can be forgiven.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

From first impressions of Denethor, Pippin thinks that Denethor looks more powerful, and "wizardly" then Gandalf. But, then Pippin realizes it can't be so, and is proven when the two are locked in "mental combat" and Denethor first withdraws his glare.

You know, this reference has had me wondering for a very long time: what does a stereotypical wizard look like?

I don't mean here, in our primary world, where Merlin and Gandalf himself have played major roles in developing our mental images of a typical wizard, but in middle-earth. In other words, what is Pippin's default image of wizard?

Denethor, as far as we know, does not have exceptionally long hair. If he has a beard at all, it is not of great length. He has no pointed hat. He wears the fine garments of a Steward- including chainmail.

Now I realise that it was the force of Denethor's powerful personality shining through that must have been the major influence on Pippin's reaction, but I still wonder: before the quest, how did Pippin mentally imagine a "great wizard". And one must remember that Gandalf was really only known for his fireworks, etc, in the Shire, and not for being a great wizard.

[Mithalwen]

I think it would be the aura of authority. The istari came in the bodily clothing of old men, and while Pippin had, on his travels, been in the presence of elf lords and young men of high rank, the older men (or seeming men) he had encountered were Gandalf, Theoden (revived), Saruman and Denethor. Now superficially Gandalf might have appeared the least imposing of them all. Denethor in his imposing surroundings and with the the ancient authority of his office would have been very imposing, and Denethor is very learned - it just occurs to me - and of course at this stage Pippin is unaware of Denethor's palantir which is an obvious parralel - that Pippin may be reminded of Saruman in his first impressions of Denethor. If I remember rightly the Steward has a rod as a sign of his office which would be a surrogate staff? I will have a closer look at that possibility when I reread...

[Lalwendë]

The whole chapter is seen through Pippin's eyes, and it is written very much as though we only see what Pippin sees; like him we are filled with wonder at this new place so his viewpoint is a perfect one to take, as we too are viewing it afresh. His age is an important factor here. Pippin is still not 'come of age' and is young, and his behaviour throughout the books demonstrates his youth. In this chapter we see Minas Tirith as viewed by a young person who is still learning about the world.

He has a lot of youthful pride:

Then Pippin looked the old man in the eye, for pride stirred strangely within him, still stung by the scorn and suspicion in that cold voice.

He is hurt and a little offended by the way Denethor speaks to him, and he has enough pride to be able to speak up against a nobleman he has only just met; this might not be expected of anyone who met Denethor, but instead of showing deference, Pippin is bold enough to speak up. He then has the temerity to offer his service, which to his credit is behaviour appreciated by Denethor. But for all his boldness, Pippin is still touchingly frightened and unsure; he relies upon Gandalf, having Beregond take him back to their quarters to see if Gandalf has returned. Pippin is uneasy without him about. He almost forgets Gandalf's one instruction to him, but once remembered, he takes great care to see to Shadowfax, even bringing him treats.

Pippin is still impulsive, as shown in his eagerness to speak to Denethor, despite Gandalf warning him what he ought not to say; he does not seem to believe in waiting to be spoken to. Likewise, when he is assigned to Beregond for the morning, his first question is to ask where he might get some food. Beregond himself informs Pippin of his status in the hierarchy of Minas Tirith, and he is well respected, but Pippin does not restrict his manner of speech. He wants to know as much as possible, and through his eager talk we too get to know all about the city.

His youth is underlined when he meets Bergil, who he befriends and seems to treat as a younger brother. With his new friend, Pippin the newcomer to the city is even able to show off a little:

Bergil proved a good comrade, the best company Pippin had had since he parted from Merry, and soon they were laughing and talking gaily as they went about the streets, heedless of the many glances that men gave them. Before long they found themselves in a throng going towards the Great Gate. There Pippin went up much in the esteem of Bergil, for when he spoke his name and the pass-word the guard saluted him and let him pass through; and what was more, he allowed him to take his companion with him.

'That is good!' said Bergil. 'We boys are no longer allowed to pass the Gate without an elder. Now we shall see better.'

What strikes me about Pippin's character in this chapter is his ability to get along with almost anybody. He pleases Denethor, he becomes a comrade of Beregond and makes friends with Bergil; he even pleasantly surprises Gandalf. Of course, this is essential to the narrative, as we need to meet all these people if we are to learn about Minas Tirith and its situation at that time. If Pippin had been sullen and dull then we would not get to meet these people in quite the same way, but by using his point of view, we also get to see his character more clearly, away from the shadow of the bigger personalities in the Fellowship.

They ate and drank; and they talked now of Gondor and its ways and customs, now of the Shire and the strange countries that Pippin had seen. And ever as they talked Beregond was more amazed, and looked with greater wonder at the hobbit, swinging his short legs as he sat on the seat, or standing tiptoe upon it to peer over the sill at the lands below.

'I will not hide from you, Master Peregrin,' said Beregond, 'that to us you look almost as one of our children, a lad of nine summers or so; and yet you have endured perils and seen marvels that few of our greybeards could boast of. I thought it was the whim of our Lord to take him a noble page, after the manner of the kings of old, they say. But I see that it is not so, and you must pardon my foolishness.'

'I do,' said Pippin. 'Though you are not far wrong. I am still little more than a boy in the reckoning of my own people, and it will be four years yet before I "come of age", as we say in the Shire.

This passage interested me. Here we have the youthful Hobbit talking to the seasoned soldier of Gondor and it is the latter who is less experienced. Beregond has been charged with showing Pippin the ways of Minas Tirith, but the hobbit ends up impressing the older man with his tales of Middle Earth.

From this I get a couple of things. Firstly, the men of Minas Tirith may well be trained soldiers, but they do not have a great awareness of the world they live in; their lives are insular, dedicated to the service of the great city, yet they hold the fate of this world in their hands. The passage also shows just how far Pippin has come from his innocence in The Shire; he is indeed growing up throughout his journey. It also serves to remind us that although the Ring may be in the hands of a Hobbit, these Hobbits, when viewed alongside Men, are just as strong and brave.

I'm sure if Gandalf had not taken Pippin with him then we would have had a very different view of Minas Tirith. Gandalf does not go about with the ordinary Men, he instead rushes off to a meeting, and the city is familiar to him. Through his eyes we would not have seen the place with as much of a sense of wonder, and we would not have met Beregond and Bergil and shared their feelings on the eve of battle.

[davem]

This is a long chapter & will probably take some unravelling. I have to say that, as I usually do, I read through the relevant section of HoMe first, & was struck by a few things, some of which seem relevant to our understanding of this chapter.

Now, before anyone accuses me of contradicting other statements I’ve made recently, about simply reading the story & entering into it without analysing it, pulling it apart, or seeking external explanations, I’ll say I’m only using these quotes because they seem to me to shed light on the story itself.

First of all, a note by Tolkien regarding Denethor’s attitude to Gondor, which seems to back up Boromir’s post:

In the margin of the page that bears this passage my father wrote:'For his wisdom did not consider Gandalf, whereas the counsels of Denethor concerned himself, or Gondor which in his thought was part of himself'. There is no indication where this was to be placed, but I think that it would follow 'Pippin perceived that Gandalf had greater power, and deeper wisdom- and a majesty that was veiled.'

Now, while this statement didn’t make it into the final text, I think it sums up Denethor’s attitude to his realm. He has come to identify himself with Gondor - indeed, he sees it as less than himself - it is merely a ‘part of himself’. I think this statement gives us an important key to the understanding of his character. Its not simply that he believes that if Gondor falls so will he (which is pretty certain) but that he believes that if he falls then so will Gondor. But ‘Gondor’ in his mind isn’t simply the land, it is also the people - including his own sons. He has become the ‘head’, the land & people his body. He rules the land as he rules himself. I can’t help feeling that this hubris is what brings about his despair in large part. He knows Sauron is winning the battle of wills fought via the Palantir, feels himself about to be overwhelmed, & he translates this as being the same thing as Sauron being about to overwhelm Gondor itself - which may or may not be true, but in Denethor’s mind there is no difference. If he himself is beaten, Gondor is beaten.

This also plays a part, I suspect, in his attitude to Aragorn, & the possibility if his claiming the Kingship. Denethor can only see this possibility as his own defeat & overthrow, & therefore as the defeat & overthrow of Gondor itself. It seems to me that Denethor’s sitting in the throneroom, armed & armoured, but refusing to go out, is not merely his attempt at self preservation; its as if he feels that while he himself is safe & secure then Gondor, by extension, will be safe & secure as well. He can even ‘spend his sons’ because, while he loves them, they are not Gondor.

Another thing I picked up from HoMe, which may or may not be applicable, was a statement from the ‘proto-Beregond’:

Many other pencilled alterations were made to this part of the mauscript, mostly to clarify the writing, which is here rather rough. Among these the following may be noted: as Beren and Pippin sat on the seat beside the battlement Beren said: 'We thought it was the whim our lord to take him a page boy', and this was changed by the addition of 'after the manner of the old kings that had dwarves in their service, if old tales be true.'

What’s interesting here is that Tolkien uses the idiosyncratic ‘dwarves’, not dwarfs, so he’s clearly referring to members of the dwarven race, not to ‘short’ humans. This is such an odd idea, because even though his concept of the dwarves evolved over the years, there was never any point in the writings where dwarves would have been concieved as serving as pages to humans. My own feeling on reading this was that Tolkien was making a double point here - first, that the lore of Gondor is in decline, & ignorance of other races is growing. The Gondorians are not simply ignorant of Hobbits, but of Dwarves as well. Second, it shows there is doubt about the veracity of ‘old tales’. Now, in this case, that doubt is correct, but later, in the case of Ioreth, we will see that it is not. In short, the Gondorians retain ‘old tales’, but have an ambiguous relationship to them. Some old tales are true, some are false, some are pure fantasy, but they don’t seem to be able to distinguish which is which anymore. In fact, for all their ‘learning’, they seem to be as ignorant of the world beyond their time & borders as the Rohirrim, & we can understand Faramir’s mourning for the past greatness of his people.

[Celuien]

A few quick thoughts before I read a bit more closely...

I'm struck by the use of contrasts in this chapter: the high white peaks of Minas Tirith against the shadowed walls of Mordor, Gandalf versus Denethor in the passages discussed above, Borormir versus Faramir from Beregond's words, and even Pippin versus Denethor. Both Pippin and Denethor show pride in this chapter, but while Denethor's pride leads to selfishness as he claims the rule of Gondor, Pippin is lead to give service. Maybe this is an insight into hobbit resistance to evil, since a feeling that leads to negative behavior in Denethor leads to something positive from Pippin.

There might be a hint of Osanwë suggested here. While there is clearly foreshadowing of the palantír's existence in Minas Tirith when Pippin thinks Denethor looked at him while speaking about the Stones, the interaction between Gandalf and Denethor brings Osanwë to mind:

He turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire, drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.

and

...he saw that Denethor and Gandalf still looked each other in the eye, as if reading the other's mind.

This mind reading isn't palantír mediated if it was attempted, but the "as if" qualification brings up shades of the infamous Balrog debate.

[Firefoot]

Originally posted by Lalwendë:
Pippin is still impulsive, as shown in his eagerness to speak to Denethor, despite Gandalf warning him what he ought not to say; he does not seem to believe in waiting to be spoken to. Likewise, when he is assigned to Beregond for the morning, his first question is to ask where he might get some food. Beregond himself informs Pippin of his status in the hierarchy of Minas Tirith, and he is well respected, but Pippin does not restrict his manner of speech. He wants to know as much as possible, and through his eager talk we too get to know all about the city.

I'm not sure that impulsive is the right word to use. Certainly, Pippin is curious and outspoken, but he has come a long way from the "ridiculous young Took who was giving a comic account of Bilbo's farewell party" at the Prancing Pony. Pippin is now much more wary of his own speech and actions. He must be careful in talking to Denethor, and he is mindful of himself during his meal with the Third Company. He has matured a great deal, and I think his encounter with the Palantír helped a great deal with this. To me, your examples seem more like the normal actions of his personality: friendly, outspoken, almost too bold, but impulsive? I'm not so sure. The one action of his that I might call impulsive is his swearing of service, but he seems to have thought about this already, as he states to Ingold.

Originally posted by Formendacil:
Now I realise that it was the force of Denethor's powerful personality shining through that must have been the major influence on Pippin's reaction, but I still wonder: before the quest, how did Pippin mentally imagine a "great wizard". And one must remember that Gandalf was really only known for his fireworks, etc, in the Shire, and not for being a great wizard.

I think you already answered your own question, at least in part. As Pippin tells Beregond, he has known of Gandalf all his life. He knows that Gandalf is powerful, but it still hasn't really hit home. In some ways, to Pippin Gandalf is still the "friendly neighborhood wizard who makes great fireworks." Saruman fit his bill for a "great wizard," if a fallen one, and so now does Denethor. Part of this is, like Mithalwen said, an aura of authority. Another part, I think, is an aura of real power, and in Denethor's case nobility. Gandalf is almost too familiar to Pippin for him to associate these things with him.

I also agree very much with Enca's and Boromir's points on the stewardship line. It's one of my favorites.

"Do you think that I do not understand your purpose in questioning for an hour one who knows the least, while I sit by?"

"If you understand it, then be content," returned Denethor. "Pride would be folly taht disdained help and counsel at need; but you deal out such gifts according to your own designs. Yet the Lord of Gondor is not to be made the tool of other men's purposes, however worthy."

This part of the exchange has always seemed rather cryptic to me. It is rather interesting that Denethor would question Pippin so closely while Gandalf could tell him much more. I have always interpreted the reason to be mostly Denethor's pride, knowing that while he might get less information from Pippin, it would probably be more honest and uncensored, whereas Gandalf's would be very guarded. Thoughts?

[Belin]

To the discussion of Pippin's character development (always an interesting topic to me), I'd like to add something that I've noticed particularly on this reading: his loneliness. This is accented by the necessity of responding to people as a rather ignorant foreigner who didn't even arrive of his own free will; he finds himself explaining to the Gondorians who he is and where he came from. This has happened before, but he was with Merry, whose presence, I suspect, was reassuring. "This is where I'm from, and here is my friend and kinsman who's from there too" is really very different from remarking that one is from the Shire and being regarded with suspicion (or amazement) because of it. Pippin, of course, is very socially adept and even manages to remain reasonably cheerful, but his loneliness is as evident and as important as his worry about battle in the things that bother him.


Of course, as soon as he enters Minas Tirith, he (intentionally or not) takes on a role within it, by swearing his oath. Denethor takes his opportunity to make him one of the knights of the city, giving him a particular place in the structure and schedule and duties, even if the specifics have not yet been made clear. Still, he speaks to Beregond because he is lonely, and finds Bergil good company in the absence of Merry, from whom he is now separated for the first time. Meanwhile, the Gondorians have all come up with their own explanations for who he is that he now has to field (and going from a fool of a Took to the Ernil i Pheriannath from one day to another has to be disorienting).

So for the last part of the story, Pippin has to take on another identity, one not entirely of his choosing.. and he misses his friends. But he accepts it.

"Greetings!" said that lad. "Where do you come from? You are a stranger in the City."

This is rather sad to me, in much the same way as the ending of the book itself is.

[Lathriel]

It is tough to be alone in a new place with no friends. I really feel for Pippin because I experienced something like what he went through in Minas Tirith. (To a lesser extent)
I moved to a new place and had to start in Highschool in grade nine. Everyone knew everybody else and it was rather intimidating. Also because you are a tiny grade nine and there are many grade twelves who can sometimes give you a hard time.
It is funny that both Merry and Pippin give an oath to serve Denethor or Theoden. It is probably because they both feel somewhat unwanted and alone. Like Pippin said "I feel like baggage" (or something like that, I might not have memorized it correctly) Both Hobbits have the desire to prove themselves and make themselves useful.
I think this is definitly one of the reasons why Pippin offers his service appart from his emotional reasons.

[davem]

We meet few of the folk of Minas Tirith in the book, & I think this is why Faramir is such an important character in the story. Through him we are given a glimpse of the people of Gondor - though admittedly Faramir is not typical, he shows us that the Gondorians are a good people, fighting not just against Sauron, but to uphold an ideal. Apart from his men in Ithilien the first gondorian we meet is Ingold, one of the men building the Rammas:

'Yea truly, we know you, Mithrandir,' said the leader of the men, 'and you know the pass-words of the Seven Gates and are free to go forward. But we do not know your companion. What is he? A dwarf out of the mountains in the North? We wish for no strangers in the land at this time, unless they be mighty men of arms in whose faith and help we can trust.'

He doesn’t come across as very welcoming of strangers, to say the least. He refers to Pippin not only as if he wasn’t there, but almost as if he is a ‘thing’ - he asks ‘What is he?’, not ‘Who?’. If we had met this particular Gondorian before we met Faramir we may not have found ourselves rooting for Gondor. If Faramir seems to some readers to be unbelievably ‘goody-goody’ they should maybe ask themselves what they would have felt about Gondorians in general if he had been less of an ‘ideal’. The fact that Tolkien has given us such a shining example of a Gondorian means that he can give us a character like Ingold without him turning us off the people of Gondor altogether. Ingold is a man with a very practical outlook on things - he (speaking for the whole of his people, remember!) states that they only wish to have ‘mighty men of arms in whose faith and help we can trust.' around. It seems he struggles to see much good in any stranger - even Gandalf:

'May you bring good counsel to Denethor in his need, and to us all, Mithrandir!' Ingold cried. 'But you come with tidings of grief and danger, as is your wont, they say.'

This is hearsay reported as fact. Ingold doesn’t want ‘foreigners’ around unless they can fight, & even then, he doesn’t trust them.

Beregond, on the other hand, is a Gondorian more in the ‘Faramir’ mouid. He is naturally respectful of Pippin, & wishes to learn from him. If Ingold is a man after Denethor’s heart, Beregond os of Faramir’s party. We perhaps see a ‘split’ in the Gondorians. On the one hand Faramir symbolises the positive, open, compassionate side, the side that loves art, history & knowlege for its own sake - the idealists, if you will. On the other we have the ‘Denethorians’ the isolationists, the ones who openly state ‘If you aren’t with us, you’re against us!’, who seek in history & knowlege only the power to dominate & rule others - ‘For their own good’, no doubt.

'You have been in Rohan, I hear. There is much that I would ask you of that land also; for we put much of what little hope we have in its people. ...

They ate and drank; and they talked now of Gondor and its ways and customs, now of the Shire and the strange countries that Pippin had seen. And ever as they talked Beregond was more amazed, and looked with greater wonder at the hobbit, swinging his short legs as he sat on the seat, or standing tiptoe upon it to peer over the sill at the lands below...

Yet, underlying his curiosity, is a deep sadness. He fears the loss of everything he has come to hold dear. He is a man facing the shadow of Death - not just his own death but the death of every hope, dream & value - not to mention his son.

'Few, maybe, of those now sundered will meet again. And there were always too few children in this city; but now there are none--save some young lads that will not depart, and may find some task to do: my own son is one of them.'

Why does he allow Bergil to remain? I’ve never quite understood. Why do they allow children to remain in the city at all, rather than evacuating them? A sense of hopelessness - ‘They’re all going to die anyway, because we can’t win this war, so why argue with them, at least we will be with them when we all die.’?

But whatever else we can say about Beregond, he is an ordinary man. He is not in the counsels of the rulers. As much as Ingold, all he has to go on are rumours:

And the Lord Denethor is unlike other men: he sees far. Some say that as he sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future; and that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with him. And so it is that he is old, worn before his time. But however that may be, my lord Faramir is abroad, beyond the River on some perilous errand, and he may have sent tidings.

Yet, this doesn’t make him narrow minded & untrusting like Ingold. Rather it makes him uncertain & sad.

'Yet, Master Peregrin, we have this honour: ever we bear the brunt of the chief hatred of the Dark Lord, for that hatred comes down out of the depths of time and over the deeps of the Sea. Here will the hammer-stroke fall hardest. And for that reason Mithrandir came hither in such haste. For if we fall, who shall stand? And, Master Peregrin, do you see any hope that we shall stand?'

He knows that his city is not just ‘in harms way’, it is targetted. Sauron is motivated by a desire to revenge himself on the last of the Numenoreans. But he is not merely concerned for his own city & people - his concern is for Middle earth as a whole. He knows that if Minas Tirith falls Gondor falls & if Gondor falls Middle earth as a whole will fall. When he claims it is an ‘honour’ to bear the brunt of Sauron’s hatred, he means it. One gets the sense that as far as Ingold is concerned the rest of Middle earth could go hang as long as Gondor survives.

Yet I wonder whether Beregond is completely in the grip of despair. It doesn’t take much to inspire him with hope:

Then suddenly Pippin looked up and saw that the sun was still shining and the banners still streaming in the breeze. He shook himself. 'It is passed,' he said. 'No, my heart will not yet despair. Gandalf fell and has returned and is with us. We may stand, if only on one leg, or at least be left still upon our knees.'
'Rightly said!' cried Beregond, rising and striding to and fro. 'Nay, though all things must come utterly to an end in time, Gondor shall not perish yet. Not though the walls be taken by a reckless foe that will build a hill of carrion before them. There are still other fastnesses, and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green.'

He seems to be the kind of man who is naturally hopeful about the future, & his hope seems focussed not on Denethor, but on Faramir:

'But things may change when Faramir returns. He is bold, more bold than many deem; for in these days men are slow to believe that a captain can be wise and learned in the scrolls of lore and song, as he is, and yet a man of hardihood and swift judgement in the field. But such is Faramir. Less reckless and eager than Boromir, but not less resolute. .

But it is not Faramir himself who inspires him with hope, it is what Faramir symbolises. So, again, we see how vital it is that Faramir is the kind of man he is. His role, & he knows it well, is not simply to rule, to give orders, it is not even to defeat Sauron. Faramir’s role in life is to inspire his people to be the best they can be in peacetime. It is a heavy burden with which he must struggle, & we can see that in his ‘oath’ to refuse the Ring even if he found by the wayside he is leading by example - this is what he hopes would be the response of all his people to the ‘weapon of the enemy’. Faramir is not simply a man, he is a leader, a ‘shepherd’ to his people. That he has succeeded in that hope is shown by Beregond.

So, we come finally to Bergil. Bergil is interesting in two ways. First, he is, if not a ‘typical’ Gondorian child, he is typical of a certain kind - the ones who refused to leave the city. He is a ‘fighter’ & we see something of the spirit that has enabled Gondor to survive. Yet he is like his father in that fighting is not what he truly loves:

'

Farewell for this time,' said Bergil. 'Take my greetings to my father, and thank him for the company that he sent. Come again soon, I beg. Almost I wish now that there was no war, for we might have had some merry times. We might have journeyed to Lossarnach, to my grandsire's house; it is good to be there in Spring, the woods and fields are full of flowers. But maybe we will go thither together yet. They will never overcome our Lord, and my father is very valiant. Farewell and return!'

He will fight for what he loves, but he doesn’t love fighting for its own sake (well, no more than most ten year old boys!)

The other way Bergil is interesting is as part of a father-son pair. This pairing runs through the whole of the Legendarium & plays a central role in the two time travel tales Tolkien wrote. Yet within Middle earth we find this relationship repeatedly recurring. Sometimes it manifests positively, sometimes negatively - Tuor/Earendel, Barahir/Beren, Hurin/Turin, Elendil/Isildur, even the Bilbo/Frodo relationship is prety much father/son, & its interesting that in an early version of the Hobbit sequel the hero of the story was to be Bilbo’s son.

Finally, we find Beregond turning up to wish Pippin goodnight, & doing his Warden Hodges impression:

'Can you find your way?' said Beregond at the door of the small hall, on the north side of the citadel, where they had sat. 'It is a black night, and all the blacker since orders came that lights are to be dimmed within the City, and none are to shine out from the walls. And I can give you news of another order: you will be summoned to the Lord Denethor early tomorrow. I fear you will not be for the Third Company. Still we may hope to meet again. Farewell and sleep in peace!'

‘Put those Lights out!’ Don’t you know there’s a war on!’ Now, I have to admit, knowing when the book was written, that came close to breaking the spell!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Ingold doesn’t want ‘foreigners’ around unless they can fight, & even then, he doesn’t trust them.

This is another example of how the ordinary Gondorians have become insular. Ingold's insularity surfaces in suspicion of strangers while Beregond's surfaces in the wonder he expresses at Pippin's story. Ingold referring to Pippin as a 'thing' may be explained by this insularity; such men would possibly only have experience of other Men or of Orcs, so a Hobbit might seem a very peculiar looking person. When Eomer first hears of Hobbits it seems he has heard tales of them, but Ingold's reaction suggests that he has not even heard those.

Faramir is stationed relatively far from Minas Tirith, and though he seems much less insular, I wonder what experience he himself can have had of people from outside Gondor? I can imagine that Men from the areas to the south such as Dol Amroth would have visited Gondor, but there can have only been limited opportunity to meet with 'foreigners'. Maybe this serves to underline Faramir's character, that he is more open to the Hobbits when he meets them?

[davem]

On this 'insularity' thing. I'm wondering what to make of Faramir's account in Henneth Annun of 'some of us' still having dealings with the Elves - even going at times to Lorien, 'seldom to return'. Faramir does then go on to say that he deems it 'perilous' to have dealings with the Elves, so it seems that even he suffers from the 'insular' thinking of his fellows. I wonder, though. Maybe that has more to do with an awareness that the time of the Elves is over & that seeking them out is a dangerous clinging to the past - but then again he himself is full of yearning for what Gondor had been & the desire to see it return to that high state.

Faramir seems at one & the same time drawn to the past & knowing that he cannot go back. Like Frodo he seems to have realised that 'There is no real going back.'

Its interesting that Tolkien chooses to bring Faramir back into the reader's consciousness through Beregond's reference to him. Its as though he realised Faramir's vital symbolic importance. Faramir shapes our view of what Gondor is. Tolkien can only present us with such flawed Gondorians because of Faramir & he seems to realise that to let us forget him would be a serious mistake if we are to remain 'on side'.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by davem

The other way Bergil is interesting is as part of a father-son pair. This pairing runs through the whole of the Legendarium & plays a central role in the two time travel tales Tolkien wrote. Yet within Middle earth we find this relationship repeatedly recurring. Sometimes it manifests positively, sometimes negatively - Tuor/Earendel, Barahir/Beren, Hurin/Turin, Elendil/Isildur, even the Bilbo/Frodo relationship is prety much father/son, & its interesting that in an early version of the Hobbit sequel the hero of the story was to be Bilbo’s son.

You have to wonder WHY this is...

The thought came to me that maybe this has to do with a deficiency in Tolkien's own life. We know that he never really knew his father. His mother may have died young, but he knew her and remembered her. His father is just more a vague influence, the "A.R. Tolkien" on the trunk.

Curious...

As to the chapter itself, this is one of my stated favourites. The "Homeric" procession of allies marching into the city is one of my favourite parts of the entire epic, ending with the magnificient Knights of Dol Amroth and their prince.

Even though Minas Tirith has seen no actual fighting as yet, I got a much clearer feeling that this is an entire country at war that I ever did with Rohan. The regular populace seems a great deal closer and more real. Was it that Tolkien had a greater understanding of the way a major war in a city would be than of a fortress-based battle like Helm's Deep? Or does he understand the mentality of a city population better than that of a more rural Rohirric one?

[Guinevere]

There is little left for me to remark, everything important about Denethor and Pippin having been said.

Just some things I noticed.

I only realized now that the riders Gandalf & Pip passed in the dark were errand riders of Gondor, and one of them must have been Hirgon.

In several places Tolkien makes the connection to the Frodo & Sam - thread, to events that we already have read about, but that take place simultanously with the ones we read about now.

He wondered where Frodo was , and if he was already in Mordor; or if he was dead; and he did not know that Frodo from far away looked on that same moon as it set beyond Gondor ere the coming of the day.

and I remember vividly that scene from Henneth Annûn.

...and the warm sun that shone down beyond the river, as Frodo walked in the glades of Ithilien, glowed here on the smooth walls and rooted pillars...

Pippin's first glimpse of Minas Tirith is such a lovely sight!
And the description of the Pelennor is very accurate indeed (I had to look up a lot of words in the dictionary though: like fiefs, tilth, fold , byre, oast and garner...)
I wondered also about the description of the road: "Wide and well-paved, and along its eastern edge ran a broad green riding-track, and beyond that a wall." This is exactly painted like this in a picture of Minas Tirith by Ted Nasmith!
At this reading,I looked up on the map all the places where the troups from the outlands come from.
(Incidentally, does everyone here know, that Pelennor is pronounced Pelennor? The movie crew obviously doesn't, and I am only sure where the stress is since I have heard Tolkien himself pronounce it on a CD!)

The ancient culture in Gondor is such a contrast to the one where Pippin comes from! It is like a journey in a long past, medieval world.
The Shire is much nearer to our world: the hobbits have family names like we have, but in Minas Tirith, Pippin Took becomes Peregrin son of Paladin, soldier of Gondor.
In the Shire, they seem to have watches und measure time as we do, but in Minas Tirith the hours are counted from sunrise and rung with a bell.

I find it very refreshing to meet Beregond (an almost "normal" Gondorian) , and especially Bergil. Yes, I wondered too, why his father let him stay in the city. But the boy himself finds it exciting and doesn't really realize the danger:
"Almost I wish now that there was no war." he says to Pippin.
Beregond's words about Denethor are pretty revealing:

The Lord Denethor is unlike other men: he sees far. Some say that as he sits alone in his high chamber in the Tower at night, and bends his thought this way and that, he can read somewhat of the future;and that he will at times search even the mind of the Enemy, wrestling with him . And so it is that he is old, worn before his time.

And Denethor himself, when he tells Gandalf:

"For though the Stones be lost, they say, still the lords of Gondor have keener sight than lesser men..."

is almost lying. How can he think that Gandalf doesn't suspect the truth?
I find it a bit strange anyway, that the Gondorians can have completely forgotten the existance of the Palantiri...