Most powerful Elf on Middle Earth (3rd age)

[Iarhen]

Ok, heres a question.

Tolkien speaks of Galadriel as mighty among the Eldar, most powerful elf on Middle Earth and other adjectives.

But he also speaks in the same way of Elrond.

So, between Elrond and Galadriel, which one was more powerful?

My guess: Galadriel. She was even able to see and know what Sauron thought, resisted the 3 assails from Dol Guldur and drove them back by herself, destroyed the fortress of Dol Guldur and kept Lothlorien a safe place when the most dangerous times of the Third Age were passing...

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Elrond, or Galdriel. Elrond, or Galadriel? Who is more powerful? Well, in a spiritual way Galadriel is certainly, and when it comes to 'magic' (magic to the Hobbits and men, anyway, as it could be mistaken for an insult) sorts of things (like the mirror, or the cloaks). But Elrond is of the line of Earendel, the joined houses of Beren and Luthien and Tuor and Idril, also of Turgon lord of Gondolin and Thingol of Doriath, and Melian the Maia. Galadriel was certainly the older and more experienced, but Elrond had the knowledge of many new things, and was closer to men or other races. Also, he knew better the war tactics, likely, and had the experience of prior contact to the Ring, though he never of course touched it. So I'd say they're even.

As for the most powerful elf in the third age, it was Celeborn. Greatest of Elves, he was even referred to as. As for the greatest 3rd age elf warrior, Glorfindel. The greatest mariner, Cirdan.

[greyhavener]

Wouldn't being completely elf rather than half-elven give Galadriel the edge?

[Frodo Baggins]

Well, does being 1/16 Maia give Elrond and edge?

[littlemanpoet]

Galadriel. Especially as Tolkien kept rethinking her. By the time he died he had her (I believe) as sister to Feanor. That puts her way up there among the originals, living in Valinor, learning from the Valar themselves. Elrond never came close. And even if Galadriel was not sister in the published canon, she is little lesser for all that. Oh, yes. Far and away. Elrond is in her shadow.

[Lady Alasse]

Well, Galadriel came over when the elves came to find the simarils that had been taken to ME. She is definetly the oldest of the elves and probably the wisest. She has the edge on Elrond because she has been living mush longer than he.

[Alatáriël Lossëhelin]

Galadriel was much older. In The Silm she is listed as the daughter of Finarfin (which would make her Fëanor's niece), granddaughter of Finwë, and born in Eldamar. Elrond was born in ME in Beleriand and was actually Galadriel's son-in-law. He was knowledgeable in lore and healing, and was also the bearer of Vilya, the most powerful of the 3 elven rings.
Based on Galadriel having been born and living for many ages in Valinor, she probably has an edge over Elrond. But although they are both powerful in their own rights, neither has the power to resist Sauron indefinitely.

[Tar Elenion]

Galadriel was never Feanor's sister. At one point she was conceived of as the daughter of Finrod Felagund (who was named Inglor, at that point) and sister of Gil-galad. Otherwise she was the daughter of Finarfin.

In Letter 246 JRRT wrote:

Of the others [the 'immortals'] only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter.

The "especially Elrond" is very interesting. Why would he be "especially" capable. Could his 'divine' heritage have something to do with it? As has been pointed out, he was part Maia (in effect, descended from the 'gods').

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[ February 27, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Cirdan was also the most 'far-seeing' of all the Elves in the Third age.

ah but Elrond has the most powerful of the elven ring

[drigel]

I would throw my vote for Galadrial. Isnt she the only elf left by the TA that was in Valinor and saw the light of the Trees?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Glorfindel saw the Two Trees. Maybe Celeborn, if you choose to believe he was a Telerin Elf.

[the witch king]

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

So if she was up there with Feanor in the 3rd age she she has to be the greatest in m/e

ah but galadriel saw the light of the trees and elrond not only did not but is of mingled blood. so definetly galadriel.

if it is too keep Tolkien's intentions about Galadriel , She is for sure the most wise and powerful of the elfs...At some point he called her the most powerful noldor, but for Feanor back in Valinor, which is too much for Elrond...
also the awe she causes in the others characters may be a measure of how much imponent figure she was. I think there is no doubt she is the character that caused more impact over the members of fellowship between the elfs...

[Gorwingel]

I would have to say Galadriel is more powerful than Elrond, just because of how old and wise she is. Elrond had actually been in Middle Earth for a very short time compared to Galadriel. When I read the Silm I was like "When does Elrond show up?" because I knew he was very powerful and all, he did not show up until over halfway through the book, and Galadriel was there in the beginning (well not the very beginning).
I also recall that there is one part in the Silm where it actually says that Galadriel was the most powerful and wisest elf in Middle Earth during the third age.

[lindil]

JCamilo posted

At some point he called her the most powerful noldor, but for Feanor back in Valinor, which is too much for Elrond...

I must agree. Although there are several things to consider here. 1st off. JRRT was very loose with the terms like 'greatest', 'wisest', etc.

Someone once compiled a short list like this that was staggeringly full of seeming contradictions.

In the Shibboleth of Feanor [ JRRT's last major writing on the Noldor c.1969, JRRT said, if my memory serves me well, that Galadriel ws secong only to Feanor. And indeed his conception of her stature grew radically over the years, even though she was not present in the Lost Tales or even until the LotR itself.

So while Elrond was created first Galadriel was being slotted as the Noldorin 'yin', to Feanor's 'yang'. The analogy holds true on virtually all levels, especially in the sense that the chinese see 'Yang' as buring its self out quickly, and yin as long enduring and conquring in the end.

Several other points in Galadriel's favor are:
* the already mentioned dwelling in Aman, and
*direct tutlage of the Valar. [Elrond had none, though Cirdan was in essence it would seem from the 'last writings' [in HoM-E 12] was seen as Ulmo's perpetual point man in M-E].
* To me this is the most important, the mentorship of Melian - No other elf [excepting Luthien on 2 counts] had access to such wisdom, learning and I think direct one on one teaching re: maintaing a realm [ especially as a woman, with a less powerful man at your side too to boot!], a girdle [although Galadriel's is quite different], reading the thoughts of the Enemy.

She alone was an original keeper of one of the three. Elrond having his second hand, and Cirdan not needing it!

finally, she alone among the elves [with the exception of a momentary glimpse of Glorfindel] is cast repeatedly in a near worshiful light. The fellowship upon meeting her in Caras Galadhon is in an altogether differnt level of presence, clearly than we see with any of Elrond's audience's. And it ain't due to Celeborn either [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]!

So my understanding such as it is, sides with Galadriel hands down.

Not to demean Elrond or Cirdan [ or Glorfindel] but I think JRRT went out of his way to indicate Galadriel's surpassing greatness.

One other point.

The Children of Finarfin are unique in all of the mentioned Eldar in that they alone posess the blood and characterisitics of all three Houses of the High-Elves, and were [ as best as can be ascertained] 1/4 Noldor, 1/4 Vanyar and 1/2 Teleri.

Thus she and Finrod stand out [and Tolkien names them such in at least a couple of places] as the ideal ['wisest and noblest'] male and female Elves to have ever been in Aman or Endor.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Galadriel was wisest, that doesn't make her to most powerful elf in Middle-Earth. I already said Celeborn was, certainly. But as for the comparison between Elrond and his 'mother-in-law', the argument is perplexing. The elven rings together with the bearers, would put them on equal ground if Galadriel was the more powerful, as Elrond had a stronger ring. But I don't think they make much of a difference. It was said in the "Slayer's Chronicles" series, the first rule of nature is that "hybrids are always stronger". Elrond was a hybrid, Galadriel was not. He shared the best traits of both the races of men and elves (and had a little help from his 1/16 Maiar), but he was completely elf and not half-elven, because he chose to be an elf, and live forever. As for Galadriel, she had seen the light of Valinor, and was counted among the high-and-mighty of the elves in the blessed realm even before the quest for the Silmarils. It's still sketchy, I can see where it would point to Galadriel, but it still (trait-wise) depends on one's definition of power. Wisdom, both had.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

As for the most powerful elf in the third age, it was Celeborn. Greatest of Elves, he was even referred to as posted by-Keeper of Dol Goldur

I think he is refered to as 'wisest' not greatest.

[Annunfuiniel]

Well, this is a bit out of topic but if you say that "hybrids" are more powerful then that would definitely make the children of Elrond the mightiest of them all with their (some great speculations here!) mixed blood of: 1/32 Maiar, 11/64 Noldor, 5/64 Vanyar, 1/8 Teleri(falmari), 13/32 Teleri(sindar) and 3/16 Edain! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 02, 2003: Message edited by: Annunfuiniel ]

[thesandman762]

I do not want to sound strange or obsesed with peace or whatever, but I think that Legolas could be the gretest of Elves. He is not nearly as spiritual or strong as teh other great elves, but they all had strange flaws. Elrond was broken and worn from battle. Galadriel was even known as wicked by men, a trickster of minds. Legolas was the first elf who seemed to be able to befriend an elf, the only trait capable of bringing about peace.

I may be wrong, but the odd fame of Galadriel among the men is just to show up how much that people forgot about the old and have no contact with magic and elfs like in the old times...
Tolkien said once that Legolas was of the fellows the one who did less in the definitive fall of Sauron (Which fits with the idea of the importance of the men growing. Just in sequence he says Galadriel power come from her Goodness, which let clear the vision of her as wicked was wrong). There is no much reason then to assume Legolas was any more powerful than Elrond or Galadriel, but the Legolas of the movie, that could have won alone the battle in the Helm's Depth [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Nevvasaiel]

wouldn't the fact that the fellowship could hear Galadriel's voice in their heads also play a part? i don't believe that Elrond is capable of doing so, but please correct me if i'm wrong.

also, if hybrids are stronger, would that not make Aragorn and Arwen's children the mightiest?

[Frodo Baggins]

Gee, I'd hate to think what Arwen's children turned out to be.

Was it all men that distruted Galadriel and elves in general or was it only the Rohirrim? You see, they were a bit stuck in the backwoods and their lore didn't go back as far as, say Gondor. And Gondorians descend from Numenorians who have Elves in their blood (At least the kings do) and they also speak a form of Elvish/Numenorian in Gondor.

Wait a minute......now if Finrod Felagund was once known as Inglor, Could he be the father of Gildor? I am speaking of Gildor Inglorion Inglor son . If that's true, Galadriel is Gildor's sister. Unlees there are two Inglors. Which wouldn't surprise me since there are three Boromirs, three Denethors, two Aragorns and I think two Faramirs as well. but that's another story.

Ah, but is it true that the Maia are in a sense "gods". In the Sil it says that men called them gods but it never specifically says they were. There's really only one specified "god" and that is Illuvatar.

Or is this merely a contest of who has the biggest, most powerful ring? (I'm kidding here folks)

I am not sure if it is only them or Gondor or other men also, but there is a tale about the formation about the fronteirs of both places and during that was a battle. There was a mist coming from the forest ( i remember not if it say that come from Galadriel or someone else from her people) and the Rohirrim leader - forget his name - was helped to get in safety and in time in the battle, but he still did not trusted the forest, meaning he was still afraid of Galadriel and the elfs.

[Alatáriël Lossëhelin]

Wait a minute......now if Finrod Felagund was once known as Inglor, Could he be the father of Gildor? I am speaking of Gildor Inglorion Inglor son . If that's true, Galadriel is Gildor's sister.

Finrod Felagund was Galadriel's brother. So if Finrod was Gildor's father, that would make Galadriel Gildor's aunt, not his sister.

[Nefwathiel Teleri]

Galadriel is the aunt of Gildor, and the cousin of feanor

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Galadriel is the aunt of Gildor,

We don't actually know that Gildor was a son, or descendant of Finrod. His second name-Inglorion hints at this. (Inglor being the name of Finrod at the time the the Ptoffesor wrote loTR and 'ion' meaning scion, hence Erienion, scion of kings, a name for Gil-Galad.)

On Galadriel, I don't think that Galadriel existed at the time in which Tolkien wrote about the Hobbits meeting with Gildor in the Shire, so any kinship between the two wouldn't have been intentional, by Tolkien.

There was a mist coming from the forest ( i remember not if it say that come from Galadriel or someone else from her people) and the Rohirrim leader - forget his name - was helped to get in safety and in time in the battle, but he still did not trusted the forest, meaning he was still afraid of Galadriel and the elfs. --posted by JCamilo

This was in Unfisnhed tales, in which Eorl and the Northmen we're allowed to pass through this mists thanks to Galadriel.

As we see in LoTR, not many men trusted Lothlorien.

[drigel]

This is a good question but hard to quantify. How much weight do you add to the numbers? Is 1/16 Maia blood heavier than 1/3 Teleri/Noldor/Vanyar? Is there an equation for two tree light? How does that happen? Do you soak that light up like a sponge? (proximity /time) x bloodlines with a coefficient of .... ??

[Iarhen]

So, the effect of Galadriel's power in defending Lothlorien was that of a mist that confused both sight and mind?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

No she drew away the mists of Sauron so that Eorl and his host could come to the aid of Gondor.

[lord of dor-lomin]

This is a good question but hard to quantify. How much weight do you add to the numbers? Is 1/16 Maia blood heavier than 1/3 Teleri/Noldor/Vanyar? Is there an equation for two tree light? How does that happen? Do you soak that light up like a sponge? (proximity /time) x bloodlines with a coefficient of .... ??

Ha ha! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
I'll get to work on that equation right away!

I don't think this question will ever be definitively answered. Maybe Tolkien didn't know for sure.

For the most part, elves that lived in Valinor were better (point Galadriel). But Elrond did grow up among the high elves and had angelic blood (point Elrond). This process could go on and on, and I doubt many people would be swayed from the opinion they have now.

But, it's sooo fun to speculate! I'm going to go refresh my memory (concerning Elrond and Galadriel) and see if I can join in the debate too.

[Orald]

A better thread on the same topic

Obviously you can see here that Luthien is the greatest elf, then Feanor and Galadriel are neck and neck for a 2nd place.

[StarJewel]

If you go by the power of the Rings, than Elrond was the most powerful. But, since Galadriel had been around way longer than Elrond, I would have to say Galadriel was the most powerful on ME

[the phantom]

Cirdan was plenty older than Feanor, but who was more powerful?
Lenwe was older than Luthien, but who was more powerful?

Age doesn't always matter.

[tinewelt]

As far as power among the elves and the outside world, I believe Galadriel holds the upper hand in middle earth. Of course, Elrond, Celeborn, Glorfinel and so on were all great warriors, and no doubt were stronger(physically) than Galadriel. But her power is not in strength, but in Power of the mind and knowledge of the world around her. Elrond is only half-elven, and I think that alone is enough evidence to support that Galadriel is the most powerful. But then again you have people who say Yavanna is an elf-maiden (which i do not agree). If that were so, then things would be a little different. Verily it is in the land of Lorien upon the finger of Galadriel that one of the Three remains. This is Nenya, the Ring of Adamant, and I am its keeper.

[the phantom]

Elrond is only half-elven, and I think that alone is enough evidence to support that Galadriel is the most powerful.

You're a newbie so I won't be too hard on you for saying that. This statement was discussed in another thread, you should check it out. Here's the link-
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=003332

There you'll find that Galadriel being 100% compared to Elrond being half-elf gave Galadriel NO ADVANTAGE WHATSOEVER. In fact, it might have been to Elrond's advantage.

[tinewelt]

After reading the evidence, it does shed new thought on my opinion. Although Elrond has the blood of man and the high elves, Galadriel is said to be the most powerful among the Noldor (except feanor..ect). Also, Elrond is not of the Noldor, so that is really not relevant. I cannot find (correct me if i am wrong [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) any clear discretion between which of the lines is greater. I do believe that its obvious Elrond is a greater warrior, and his strength is far beyond that of Galadriel.(physically) But as far as knowledge of the world and power I believe Galadriel still has an edge. And as far as the rings are concerned, Its still a toss-up in my opinion. My opinion has changed, and now i remain neutral, because I cannot decipher which evidence is greater. thanks for the link, it helped tremendously. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[the phantom]

thanks for the link, it helped tremendously

My pleasure.

You're right. There's evidence on both sides and it's always difficult to decide what statement or description carries more weight because Tolkien wrote so much over such a long period of time, causing every character and story to change and shift (anybody who's ever tried to write a story knows how that is).

Neutral is often a good stance to take. That way you can enjoy all sides of a debate and contribute to both.

(I always seem so anti-Galadriel because I feel someone needs to try to balance out all the people who Galadriel worship. I also come across as pro-Feanor, pro-Elrond, and pro-Noldor in other debates because of how many people bash them and only see that side. But at heart, I'm also a neutral.)

[Finwe]

I also come across as a pro-Feanor and pro-Noldor person because they just seem so misunderstood to me. I've always been a proponent of the horribly misunderstood character (i.e. Feanor, Maeglin, etc.)