Sauron doesn't know where the Shire is?

We read that when Sauron learned about the Shire from Gollum, that he sent his agents out to find out where this place was. One agent went to the Lonely Mountain and asked the dwarves about it. I find it difficult to explain how it could be that he *doesn't* know where it is! After all: -

1) The Great East Road goes straight through the middle of the Shire. Dwarves have been using this road quite a lot. Elves headed to the Havens use the road.

2) Sauron would be interested in knowing which elves had headed into the West. One obvious way of keeping tabs on this would be to post spies to watch the main road to the Havens. Surely his spies would know about the Shire?

3) The Shire is not a new place. AFAIK it has been around since the Witch King - nearly two thousand years. Surely the Nazgul would know about the Shire - I assume he studied maps of the region he was invading!

Thanks for the help!

[PaleStar]

I could be short and say, "because the story would be a bit shorter if they did". But I'm going to try to answer your questions.

I do not think Sauron would concern himself with where the elves were going if he was trying to rebuild himself and his power. I think that he made note of it, and perhaps thought it weakened the armies that were against him.

The Shire itself has been around for a quite a while; but even if it had been subject to the Witch-king's troublemaking(which it wasn't), the Witch-king would perhaps forget because of the wraithing process?
Besides, and I'm not too sure how accurate I'm being here since I'm shaky on the history and I don't have the book in front of me, I think the Shire was 'founded'(for lack of better word) either at the tail end of the Angmar's 'life'(I mean, by this, the Witch-king rein over it) or escaped it completely. I'm not sure how correct I am by that, though.

Or maybe Sauron was just trying to be difficult. I'm not the most knowledgable person around.

See if that helps.

[Morsul the Dark]

Not quite knowledgable however

Gandalf sqays this "They barely even know of the existence of hobbits for which I am very thankful."

Also Sauron most likely only watched out for great doings and those that would make trouble for him since hobbits did very little in the way of great deeds he most likely be unfamiliar with such a place.

Also Sauron may have bin a bit of a shock seeing how far his ring had actually traveled thinking it to be in the hands of a man or an elf

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Morsul makes a good point. Sauron was not at all concerned with Hobbits and, even if his spies had informed him of this peculiar race of 'little men', he would have had more pressing matters to deal with.

He may well have been aware of the vast green country because of its links to the Havens, but I can believe that Sauron only gauged from this that the Shire was north and west somewhat.

Remember that Sauron did not know what 'Shire' meant at all. It could have been anything from a huge kingdom to a single house.

[Boromir88]

Eomer and Morsul both are right, and he's an argument to support your statements. Sauron only went to the Shire to find the ring, since that was where it was. Once he finds out the ring has left the Shire, we don't hear of anymore Black Riders, or Sauron's servants being around. Showing he had no care for the Shire he only went there to find the ring, once the ring left he didn't care for it. With Saruman it was quite different, he lusted for the Shire.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

1) Morsul and Eomer have said pretty much all I was about to say, but I'd like to underline the fact that the hobbits really didn't make a fuss of their doings.

When diving on a highway one passes many towns and parishes but if one isn't already familiar with those places, he or she seldom pays attention to the names of the places ergo one doesn't remember them afterwards. But if some sort of celebrity comes from the certain place you drive by, you might remember the place's name later. This may be a bad example but I think you get what I'm trying to say

2) Sauron probably knew that Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan would stick around quite long and since they were the only elves he should really worry about, he maybe woudn't be so interested in, who were leaving and by witch road.

3) Well, I don't know very much about the map culture of M-E, but was the Shire even on the maps the nazgul owned? Like the maps of the hobbits were white outside the borders of the Shire, would the map makers had marked such a small splotch on their map, I wonder.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I've always thought how Sauron's ignorance of the Shire was so very Elvish of him. Men are aware of the Shire (some of them even protect it!) as are Dwarves, but Elves don't pay it any heed. Even Gildor, who lives in the Shire, doesn't think of himself as living in the Shire, but in his own place -- he openly explains to the hobbits that it was another land long before it became the Shire, and so for him and the rest of the Elves, it's not 'really' the Shire at all.

In this regard, I think that Sauron and the Elves are still very much trapped in the past. The Elves want only to preserve the past and not let it change, Sauron wants a return to the 'glory days' when Melkor was around and only the Valar could stop him.

The hobbits, as relative newcomers, are simply not on the radar for Sauron and the Elves, who are both essentially backward looking. That's why I think I sometimes side with the Dwarves and non-Numenorean men who are wary of the Elves: I mean, the War of the Ring is really an Elvish fight that everyone else is getting caught up in!

[Vanya]

Well, war betwen Arnor and Angmar lasted through Third Age, mostly around 1500. Shire was founded app.2340. when Tooks came to Buckland. So, nazguls knew Arnor, but not the Shire.

[PaleStar]

-hangs head-
See? Toldya I didn't know much. Ah well, at least there are much more knowledgable people than me at the Barrowdowns who can answer your questions.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Don't be too hard on yourself Palestar. I thought your post was helpful too. I remember the days when I had about 30 posts to my name and let me tell you, I posted some useless stuff back then!

[PaleStar]

it's okay...I'm not THAT down about it. I'm basicly a newbie here, so i post what I know, and if that isn't right, it gets corrected. That's what's nice about this forum.

Thanks for the ideas!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

It seems to me the strongest argument above that Sauron should have known about hobbits is the existence of the East-West Road and its importance to travel and intel gathering. However, there are (from Sauron's point of view) numerous enemies along it (various strongholds of elves, men, skinchangers), and after Angmar either little of strategic interest or what there is too strong to immediately attack (ex. Rivendell or Erebor).

Also, one way Tolkien makes Middle-earth work is to have various levels of detail, some deeply gone into, others barely alluded to. Therefore it seems to me the theoretical geography and political geography of Middle-earth could be conceived as much larger then actually discussed in print and seen on maps. Not only to the East and South are there areas where creatures like hobbits might dwell, but to some extent the areas depicted on maps are those that were visited in LOTR. There could be unexplored areas, peoples, polities in such areas as Andrast and the forest around the Sea of Rhun. It's conceivable "Shire" might have been there, in some valleys around the Ered Mithrin, or even in South Gondor. (Sauron might even think the nassty, tricksy Gondorians deliberately created vague legends of halflings living somewhere in the north to dupe him)?

[Morsul the Dark]

[QUOTE(Sauron might even think the nassty, tricksy Gondorians deliberately created vague legends of halflings living somewhere in the north to dupe him)? [/QUOTE]

Of course all he would know would be lies and deceit but as for the east west road the elves were travelling along it yes however Sauron knew they were on their way to the sea as long as nothing came back up the road why should he care?

[Isowen]

Well, He didn't know about it untill Gollum was captured. And when he sent nazgul to find Bilbo, he became aware of different parts of the shire. Merry, has a kind of vision of what would happen to the shire if the one ring was not destroyed, there was violence and destruction. and the he says to Pippin that there will be no shire if the war continues. So I think that Sauron is unfamilliar with the Shire, although he is aware of its presence in middle-earth, and perhaps he feels almost threatened by it because he hold little knowledge of it.