Riddles in the Downs

[Pervinca Took]

Is the last verse about Aragorn? Is the motherland Numenor?

Tears sounds like Nienna. She lived alone, but did she have a sister?

I meant the first and second elves to wake - was the first called Imin?

What else did Feanor burn, or did you mean the ships and his spirit in general, or the life-force of his mother?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Is the last verse about Aragorn? Is the motherland Numenor?

No to both. The entire riddle talks about a single group, of which "I" is "the last". Motherland is not Numenor, but you have the right scale of destruction.

Originally Posted by Pervinca

Tears sounds like Nienna. She lived alone, but did she have a sister?

Nienna is not one of the sisters.

Originally Posted by Pervinca

I meant the first and second elves to wake - was the first called Imin?

Not them. The "oldest one" and "second" come from the same group as "the last". "Second" with an S is a separate entity.

Originally Posted by Pervinca

What else did Feanor burn, or did you mean the ships and his spirit in general, or the life-force of his mother?

I was thinking Alqualonde and ships at Losgar. And I hope I didn't miss another major burning by him before he went up in flames himself - though it would be irrelevant, that line just refers to Feanor and his death, and you got that element already.


I thought this riddle would be really easy. It is very much a description cloaked in vague poetry. Some elements are very precise, and you can crack at them in similar fashion to Feanor. For this approach I can point you to the "estel" line - that too refers to very specific event and people. As another clue for "Second" - Second came from countries far, and that is important.

But in this case, you can also try to read the poetic gist of the riddle for a gestalt feeling. Also, knowing that the riddle talks about a group of related entities where "eldest", "second", and "last" are more clearly defined and some "sisters" in the second stanza are a bit more vaguely described - see if just by reading it as a poem you have any unifying theme jumping out at you, almost password-style.

[Galadriel55]

Reposting on new page:



The oldest one, the nameless one,
Did not know warmth of shining sun.
But in the darkness shone the stars,
And in their light, from countries far
The Second came in second's turn -
But, in the end, though day was won,
Who twice had torched, third time must burn.

But better known in tale of years
The younger sisters - one for tears,
And one for joy, resounding joy
Which yet failed darkness to destroy;
But peace was guarded well, until
Twixt triumph great and ruin great -
But stopping short of western hills -
A burst reversed the tides of fate,
Breaking resistance, kindling dread,
Incinerating every shred
Of estel in the lord now dead
Whose line was estel to beget.

I'm not the least, but I'm the last.
The closing rage of hardships past,
Of foes and heroes both long gone.
You cannot count us on one hand -
Though brief our line, 'tis yet too long,
And we destroyed our motherland.
I am the end. I am the start.
I split the thread of time apart.

[Urwen]

I am thinking the 'second' is Finrod, and 'Second' are the Secondborn. But Finrod had only one sister. His father, however, had two...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I am thinking the 'second' is Finrod, and 'Second' are the Secondborn. But Finrod had only one sister. His father, however, had two...

"second" is not Finrod. Remember, this one is part of the group - the second in that series. I recommend not focusing on this for now though because you will get there easier either by sorting out the supporting elements, or by figuring out the sisters.

"Second" is not Secondborn, but you are on the right track with the type of answer this refers to. Just wrong group of people.

I seriously thought this riddle was gonna be easier, but I guess all riddles are easy when you know the answer. So trying to give hints aplenty without spoiling it.

[Urwen]

Hmm...maybe it involves the second among the three Elven tribes...or maybe Second among the Edain houses...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hmm...maybe it involves the second among the three Elven tribes...or maybe Second among the Edain houses...

Maybe. I also suggest looking at that line in context - look at the line before, and the next two lines that follow. You know that the last line of the stanza refers to Feanor's death.

[Urwen]

Hmm, I think the first stanza refers to the coming of Noldor to Beleriand, and Noldor are one of the 'seconds'. The other 'second' are Edain, and the only one who is the last of both of those races is Elrond...who was also raised by the Second.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Hmm, I think the first stanza refers to the coming of Noldor to Beleriand, and Noldor are one of the 'seconds'. The other 'second' are Edain, and the only one who is the last of both of those races is Elrond...who was also raised by the Second.

The Noldor are the Second. They came "in second's turn", just before Feanor died. The Edain didn't even wake yet, so they are not the "second". Besides, there is more to that series than just 2. "Last" is not "last of the Second/second", but: there was a first, a second, some more, and a last.

Since with team effort you have made a fair bit of progress with the first stanza, think about what the initial lines could mean as well. The second line is not random. Neither is the third.

If you are getting stuck with the first stanza though, try looking at the end of the second one. That is another place where you can get an element or two sorted to help orient yourself to the time and place: "Breaking resistance, kindling dread, Incinerating every shred Of estel in the lord now dead Whose line was estel to beget". Who is the lord (now dead)?

[Urwen]

Well, that could refer to Finwe, Turgon, Hador, Galdor, Huor, Tuor, Fingolfin, Thingol, Barahir, Beren, or many Kings of Numenor and Gondor, and the stewards which came after.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, that could refer to Finwe, Turgon, Hador, Galdor, Huor, Tuor, Fingolfin, Thingol, Barahir, Beren, or many Kings of Numenor and Gondor, and the stewards which came after.

Not sure which element you are talking about here. Can you be more specific about what part of the riddle you are answering - or the riddle as a whole?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not sure which element you are talking about here. Can you be more specific about what part of the riddle you are answering - or the riddle as a whole?

I just listed all the ancestors of Estel (Aragorn)

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I just listed all the ancestors of Estel (Aragorn)

Well, he's had more ancestors than that. You're right that Estel is Aragorn, and you need an ancestor. But as he had so many, going through all of them will be horribly inefficient. There is more information about this particular lord - what happened to him? This is a pivotal moment in the story. For instance, I wouldn'y say that Barahir lost every shred of estel.

[Huinesoron]

I'm pretty sure the Lord Now Dead is Fingolfin.

Is one of the group described in only three words? Despite being arguably the most prominent?

hS

[Urwen]

Well, I have a couple of ideas as to who the answer is, but none of them fits with the 'sisters' part.

For instance, if Feanor is the first or the second, then the last would be Gil-Galad, and the group would be High Kings of the Noldor.

[Urwen]

Oh, wait, I just had a though, and ironically, Huey's thread inspired this reasoning.



Okay, so the answer are Finwes, as a group. It explains every line quite nicely too.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm pretty sure the Lord Now Dead is Fingolfin.

Is one of the group described in only three words? Despite being arguably the most prominent?

hS

Yes, and yes. I think you're onto something.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, so the answer are Finwes, as a group. It explains every line quite nicely too.

I am curious how you would explain it then, because it is not the Finwes, nor the High Kings.

[Urwen]

Which other group could Feanor be a part of, then?

[Urwen]

Or maybe it's like this. First verse describes Feanor, second verse describes Fingolfin/Findis/Irime, third verse describes Finarfin.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Which other group could Feanor be a part of, then?

Feanor was never part of the group. Not sure where you got that from. "second" is not the same as "who twice had torched etc".

[Urwen]

So it's [Noldor] came in [???]'s turn.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So it's [Noldor] came in [???]'s turn.

Correct.

[Urwen]

Maybe the unknown is Tilion or Arien, or one of the stars...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Maybe the unknown is Tilion or Arien, or one of the stars...

By unknown do you mean the ??? in your last post, the "second"? Right timeframe, wrong category of answers. You're not looking for celestial bodies.

[Urwen]

Well, knowing you, it's probably a body of water of some sort, like Drengist.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, knowing you, it's probably a body of water of some sort, like Drengist.

...Aaaand we get to the part where we debate whether "sisters" can refer to non-humanoids.

You are correct in that knowing me, "second" may very well not be a person. But it is not a body of water either.

[Urwen]

Well, you used the word 'sister' to refer to rivers and arrows, if I am not mistaken.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, you used the word 'sister' to refer to rivers and arrows, if I am not mistaken.

I had an arrow riddle, yes... Can't remember the river, but very possible... I referred to a castle as "lady" at one point... And yes, I tend to use personification a lot. You know me. But that doesn't mean the word "sisters" means the same thing every time.

[Urwen]

Well, if they are humanoid, then the only sisters that existed during that time period are Valier and Finwe's two daughters. And there aren't many sister duos in Arda, to be fair.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, if they are humanoid, then the only sisters that existed during that time period are Valier and Finwe's two daughters. And there aren't many sister duos in Arda, to be fair.

Just forget the word "sisters" for now and replace with "group members". It's gonna make your life easier.

Team effort identified Feanor and Fingolfin. You have a timeframe/setting for two of the stanzas. It's time to start putting it together. Once again, try thinking of this as a password and find the unifying theme.

[Urwen]

Well, you said Feanor is not a part of this group, but the second is, and apparently Fingolfin is too... *scratches head*

[Urwen]

Why do I feel like ??? is the eldest? Of Balrogs? *thinking*

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, you said Feanor is not a part of this group, but the second is, and apparently Fingolfin is too... *scratches head*

...No, Fingolfin is not. Fingolfin is the lord who lost all hope, not one of the group. Not every element of the riddle is part of the final answer, and you need to be careful not to confuse them. Knowing Fingolfin though, read the second stanza again and see if you can work backwards up the text - what do the preceding lines mean?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Why do I feel like ??? is the eldest? Of Balrogs? *thinking*

Again not sure about which element you are referring to ("oldest" or "second"?), but neither of those is a balrog.

[Urwen]

Well, the preceding lines mean that there is a pair of sisters, who are somehow connected with Fingolfin.

But with the way you're talking, I picture in my head some group that it unseen, who destroyed their motherland, somehow. And I keep thinking about some group of 'bad guys'.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, the preceding lines mean that there is a pair of sisters, who are somehow connected with Fingolfin.

No. In fact, there are more than a pair. And they are described out of order. They are not connected with Fingolfin any more than "second" is woth Feanor - both Fs are there to give context and to ground you in some specific characters and events. For preceding lines, don't go as far back as sisters. Start with "a burst", and see if you can interpret just that passage, knowing that the lord is Fingolfin.

But with the way you're talking, I picture in my head some group that it unseen, who destroyed their motherland, somehow. And I keep thinking about some group of 'bad guys'.

The group is not unseen, nor villains. But you are not thinking in the right categories.

It might make your riddling easier too if you take "sisters" less literally, but take a number of other lines more literally. Stop fixating on sisters. But see if a literalnread of some poetic aoubding stuff gives you more info.

[Urwen]

A burst of fire?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

A burst of fire?

That is for you to determine. I think you can go a bit further here with the clues you've had without more specific hints about the burst, so give it a bit of a go first and see if you can get to the crux of the stanza rather than just single words here and there. See if you can untangle the second half of the middle stanza.

[Urwen]

Ah, I see now. The thing that made Fingolfin lose hope.

[Urwen]

Ah, I see. In one passage it says that Orcs attacked Beleriand, and wrecked lake Helevorn. Now, lake Helevorn could be Cuivinen, and if we take the theory that Orcs are corrupted Elves, well...

Or, that line could be referring to the Beleriand as a whole, as a homeland which Orcs destroyed.

And the 'burst' is Dagor Aglareb, which literally started with a burst, a burst of lava.