Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Upon the completion of the Return of the King Special Extended Edition, one scene stuck out like a sore thumb to me. That scene being the dramatic confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King.

To summarize for those who have not seen it:
The siege of Gondor is well underway; Grond has already taken down the Gates of Minas Tirith. Gandalf and Pippin, atop Shadowfax, are racing through the city to reach Faramir. Suddenly the Witch King appears seated on a fell beast. Gandalf and Pippin are thrown down, and the Nazgul raises his fiery sword; shattering Gandalf's staff. The horn of the Rohirrim is heard, and the Nazgul flies off.

As an avid fan of Tolkien's works, this scene especially annoyed me for it portrays Gandalf as weak and inferior. Whereas, in the book, Gandalf presents himself to the Witch King as he strode through the gates of Minas Tirith alone.

If any of you saw the scene, I would like to hear your views. Did you like it? Hate it?

I am not against Peter Jackson, in contrast, I have nothing but utter respect for the man. However, this scene made me cringe with distaste, and I'm very glad it didn't make the theatrical cut.

[elronds_daughter]

I myself am not sure whether to feel anger and hatred toward Peter Jackson about that scene, or only mild annoyance. My feelings are quite mixed.... I like the 'confrontation' element of the scene, but I dislike the fact that Gandalf is apparantly panicked by the Witch-King.

[Boromir88]

I wouldn't say I'm angered by it, annoyed yes, but not like I'm a raving mad lunatic. I feel as if it would have been much more dramatic, and more suspenseful to see Gandalf standing before the WK, and the WK standing at the gates. Then hearing the horn call. It would have built up a lot more tension that way, intsead of having Gandalf thrown around like a rag doll.

I felt also, that since they did the scene that way, that the WK would have finished off Gandalf, or atleast tried to have finish him off. Instead of going off to the Rohirrim (after all PJ you did have Gothmog out there who you hyped up his role). Where in the books, the WK retreated at the horn call, but he didn't break Gandalf's staff, and he didn't make Gandalf practically bow to him, instead he retreated, possibly because he felt overmatched.

[Captain of Despair]

I agree that Gandalf was done a horrible injustice in that scene. This is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in all of ME, but he is made short work of by the Witchking. That said, I don't hate the scene because I am a huge fan of the Witchking and would enjoy seeing him beat Gandalf, but Gandalf shouldn't be defeated so easily. Actually, my biggest problem with the scene is the way the WK enters so undramatically. They should have made a bigger deal out of his arrival if they were going to do the scene that way.

[Gurthang]

What I disliked most about that scene was Gandalf's staff breaking. I mean, anybody can get thrown from a horse, and what horse wouldn't jump at the sight of the fell beast. But Gandalf's staff was just sad. Seriously, a staff is like a wizard's best friend, he uses it to do a lot of stuff. Although, Gandalf does not do near as much with his staff in the movies as in the books, but I digress...

Another thing about that scene is that it doesn't seem like a very direct confrontation. The WK comes down, and we see him facing Gandalf. Then he holds up his sword, lets it flare, but doesn't use it. Gandalf just lays there dumbfounded, until his staff shattters in his hands. That's it. The conflict just doesn't seem very defined, like they could have been miles away and still done it.

[alatar]

Watching the confrontation between the WK and Gandalf really spoiled the movies for me. It seems that in PJ's version Gandalf's role is lessened when compared to the books, and this scene is the worst of it.

After watching the scene, I watched it again with PJ's commentary, hoping to get some insight regarding 'why'. Nothing. I'm very disappointed with ROTK:EE.

And does Gandalf have a staff when he boards the ship at the end?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Captain of Despair

I agree that Gandalf was done a horrible injustice in that scene. This is one of the wisest and most powerful beings in all of ME, but he is made short work of by the Witchking.

I agree In the books it said that Gandalf could even Take on the dark lord himself and Sauron is even MORE powerful than the witch king.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

I agree In the books it said that Gandalf could even Take on the dark lord himself and Sauron is even MORE powerful than the witch king.

Hm, I am not sure as to what quote you are referring. Gandalf did say:

Originally Posted by The White Rider, TTT

I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.
...
And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.

Even the second quote doesn't give precedence to Gandalf. Not that it matters much in a movie discussion.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I wouldn't say I'm angered by it, annoyed yes, but not like I'm a raving mad lunatic. I feel as if it would have been much more dramatic, and more suspenseful to see Gandalf standing before the WK, and the WK standing at the gates. Then hearing the horn call. It would have built up a lot more tension that way, intsead of having Gandalf thrown around like a rag doll.

I felt also, that since they did the scene that way, that the WK would have finished off Gandalf, or atleast tried to have finish him off. Instead of going off to the Rohirrim (after all PJ you did have Gothmog out there who you hyped up his role). Where in the books, the WK retreated at the horn call, but he didn't break Gandalf's staff, and he didn't make Gandalf practically bow to him, instead he retreated, possibly because he felt overmatched.

I completely agree with you. If the Witch King had Gandalf on the ground, why not take the extra time to defeat the Human's strongest ally?

Thank you everyone for the positive feedback!

[Neithan]

Welcome to the Downs Argonath. Yes, that scene anoyed me quite a bit. Why break the staff? What did that add to the story? Also, I don't have my copy of RotK with me but I am pretty sure the Witch King didn't have a flaming sword. I mean, he was afraid of fire.

[Captain of Despair]

Actually, I believe he did have such a sword, if I'm not mistaken

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Neithan

Also, I don't have my copy of RotK with me but I am pretty sure the Witch King didn't have a flaming sword. .

Me either, but I think that it says something like the sword looked as if it were on fire.

[Finwe-89]

Originally Posted by Argonath

Upon the completion of the Return of the King Special Extended Edition, one scene stuck out like a sore thumb to me. That scene being the dramatic confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch King.

To summarize for those who have not seen it:
The siege of Gondor is well underway; Grond has already taken down the Gates of Minas Tirith. Gandalf and Pippin, atop Shadowfax, are racing through the city to reach Faramir. Suddenly the Witch King appears seated on a fell beast. Gandalf and Pippin are thrown down, and the Nazgul raises his fiery sword; shattering Gandalf's staff. The horn of the Rohirrim is heard, and the Nazgul flies off.

As an avid fan of Tolkien's works, this scene especially annoyed me for it portrays Gandalf as weak and inferior. Whereas, in the book, Gandalf presents himself to the Witch King as he strode through the gates of Minas Tirish alone.

If any of you saw the scene, I would like to hear your views. Did you like it? Hate it?

I am not against Peter Jackson, in contrast, I have nothing but utter respect for the man. However, this scene made me cringe with distaste, and I'm very glad it didn't make the theatrical cut.

I agree with you, but I don't hate it, but on the other side I didn't liked it. It really looked like Gandalf was a weakling. But real fans of Tolkien know he isn't

[Captain of Despair]

In regards to the Witchking's sword, I found this quote in the chapter "The Siege of Gondor": "And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade."

Originally Posted by Captain of Despair

In regards to the Witchking's sword, I found this quote in the chapter "The Siege of Gondor": "And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade."

Excellent find!

I did recall a flaming sword, I just couldn't remember for the life of me whether or not it was in a metaphorical sense or not. This clears a lot up!

[Essex]

I think the reasons behind the changes to this scene were to do with Jackson's (mildly annoying) continuning reference to the 'world of men'. The WK mentions that it's the end of Men in this scene doesn't he? Gandalf is on the floor and I admit he looks frightened (but who wouldn't be?) but not YET beat, waiting for the WK to land a blow. Then the Horns of the Rohirrim blow, and the "World of Men" save Gandalf (and assist in finishing off the WK later)

RE the WK leaving at once. As the book states:

But it was no orc-chieftain or brigand that led the assault upon Gondor. The darkness was breaking too soon, before the date that his Master had set for it: fortune had betrayed him for the moment, and the world had turned against him; victory was slipping from his grasp even as he stretched out his hand to seize it. But his arm was long. He was still in command, wielding great powers. King, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, he had many weapons. He left the Gate and vanished.

This is why he left. He didn't have a second to spare and could get back to the Wizard later no doubt.......

PS I think we see Gandalf's staff being broken to show the power of the WK, and this heightens Merry's and Eowyn's bravery and their Deed a little later on in the film.

[Turin]

Originally Posted by Essex

PS I think we see Gandalf's staff being broken to show the power of the WK, and this heightens Merry's and Eowyn's bravery and their Deed a little later on in the film.

Yes, but to the belittlement of Gandalf's own power? Not a very well thought out thing to do. It makes a mockery out of Gandalf's previous confrontations with the Balrog and Saruman.

[Imladris]

feel as if it would have been much more dramatic, and more suspenseful to see Gandalf standing before the WK, and the WK standing at the gates. Then hearing the horn call. It would have built up a lot more tension that way, intsead of having Gandalf thrown around like a rag doll.

I would like to (polemically) point out that people would call that inconceivably lame -- Tolkien fans among them (I do not mean to cause offense when I say this). Tension and no climax? *shakes head* On the other hand, PJ is screwed either way because he has to please both fans and non-fans while still yet doing justice to Tolkien's work. He also has to deal with the conflicting views.

And it would have been difficult if not impossible to do it the way Essex quoted. One of the drawbacks of movie making I'm afraid.

So he compromises. And we all know that a compromise is when everybody looses.

I'm pleased to see that there is a general feeling of dissapointment for the scene in the EE with Gandalf and the Lord of the Nazgul. On a continuum between basic annoyance for the scene to outright hatred, I would have to say that I truly hate the scene, for the way that it completely emasculates Gandalf's character. Clearly, Peter Jackson took liberties with the movies, (i.e. changing scenes, plot twists) but having the Witch King strike such utter and visible fear into Gandalf and then being able to destroy his staff is, to me, an egregious and unforgivable depiction of what Tolkien would have accepted in a such a scenario. We all are aware of Gandalf's superiority to the Witch King (Mair, and head of the Istari vs. undead man, and slave of Sauron). That scene destroyed the essence of Gandalf's character in Jackson's movies, and went against the gandalf's nature as a character, as defined by Tolkien. Also, it makes me call into question Jackson's judgement, especially when you consider the inconsistencies that the scene raises. Gandalf the Grey defeats a Balrog (who was a maiar, and after Sauron, was Morgoth's greatest servants), and Aragorn was able to fend off several Ring Wraiths, including the Witch KIng, with a sword and torch, but Gandalf the White is made to appear weak and shaken before the Witch King. And on top of it all, Jackson has the Witch King break Gandalf's staff!!! It makes me wonder if he even realizes the significance of a wizard's staff.

Ok, sorry for ranting...what does everyone else think?

[Guinevere]

This is one of the dramatic scenes that I had been looking forward to see in the EE - but I was disappointed, not to say shocked by the way PJ altered it.

I think I agree in most points with what Saucepanman wrote!
I didn't mind the Witchking appearing on the fell beast instead of on horseback, it actually makes more sense. But Gandalf lying helpless on the ground and the witchking breaking his staff is totally wrong!
Anyway, in FotR Gandalf was "spot on", but in RotK he is in several scenes not plausible to me anymore.

[obloquy]

Yeah, it sucks, but it had to be that way. Otherwise, how could Jackson have explained why Gandalf didn't just kick *** on the battlefield? We know that Gandalf limited his own participation because it was primarily the job of the Peoples of Middle-earth to fend off this evil, but that would've been a hard point to get across fairly in the movie. Gandalf is obviously the most powerful being on the good side, and since Sauron is naught but a giant eyeball hanging between two posts on the top of his tower, WK has to play the Most Powerful Bad Guy role. Additionally, Gandalf's pre-human (if I may) history was eschewed in favor of a Man with wizardly powers, and thus the battlefield is somewhat leveled between he and the Witch-King.

...who should have been Gandalf's BITCH-KING. LOL!!!!!

[Boromir88]

I would say that if Gandalf had the chance, he would have beaten the WK. He did have a chance on Weathertop, but this was against all 9, and I can't see Gandalf doing anything except holding them off, and drawing some away like he did.

With that suspenseful scene at the Gate of Minas Tirith, if Rohan wouldn't have arrived then, and Gandalf and WK didn't just size eachother up and they fought, I would say Gandalf would have beaten the WK. However, this would go against the prophecy, so there for, the WK (maybe feeling overmatched) retreats to the battle, where he is slain by Eowyn, fulfilling the prophecy.

[obloquy]

It would not have gone against any prophecy for Gandalf to kill the Witch-King. If Eowyn isn't included in "Men", neither is Gandalf.

Gandalf would not have had any problem with all Nine, had he been willing to 'reveal himself in power' or however the Istari line goes. Like I said, it was the chore of the Peoples to deal with this, and Gandalf respected that.

[King of the North]

1st off thank you Argonath for agreeing with me by having the utmost respect for PJ. I myself think that scene was quite weak, Gandalf is of the Istari and would not cower before a fell servant of Sauron such as the Witch King

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Additionally, Gandalf's pre-human (if I may) history was eschewed in favor of a Man with wizardly powers ...

A very good point, and one that had not previously occured to me. I had always imagined Gandalf in the films as he is presented to us in Tolkien's works as a whole, ie as one of the Istari - a Maia with limitations on his powers. But, save for the reference at the end to him having completed his work in Middle-earth, there is no indication of his origins, and certainly no explanation of his nature. So those who are not widely read in Tolkien's works (ie 99.99% of film audiences) will simply see him as a human Wizard who sails off west with Frodo and Bilbo to live out his days in peace. Viewed in this way, maybe it makes more sense that the Witch King is more of a match for Gandalf, especially if one takes into account the suggestion that his powers have been enhanced to lead Sauron's forces into war.

Then again, this scene is only in the Extended Edition, and aren't the EEs supposed to be for the Tolkien fans - ie those who know that Gandalf is an Istar ...?

Originally Posted by King of the North

1st off thank you Argonath for agreeing with me by having the utmost respect for PJ. I myself think that scene was quite weak, Gandalf is of the Istari and would not cower before a fell servant of Sauron such as the Witch King

No problem! How can anyone not have respect for the man? He took the most difficult trilogy in the world, and created what I thought was impossible, even with today's technology.

On another note, in the Extended Version of the Return of the King, I really enjoyed the additional "Voice of Saruman" scene. I thought it was very neat that the movie gives a little nod to the "Scouring of the Shire" in the way Saruman and Wormtongue die. Even though Saruman's fall was a tad bit brutal, I really thought this scene should have made the theatrical cut. Perhaps it would have made up for the lack of Tom Bombadil .

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Argonath

I really thought this scene should have made the theatrical cut.

So did Christopher Lee.

[Essex]

regarding Saucepanman's point, I believe that the Book WK rode into Minas Tirith through the main gate as this had not been taken by an Enemy before? He could have easily flown in on his Nazgul, but wanted to be the first through the Gate so went on horseback. Maybe........

No one's mentioned Pippin in this scene. Having Gandalf on the floor we see Pippin's courage in trying to (but failing to) confront the Witch King.

Also, I know this can be seen as inconsistent, but I also think Jackson is showing that Gandalf is not all powerful or infallable. It shows that Gandalf himself seems unsure that he can beat him.

PS I agree with the point mentioned earlier on explaining the role of Merry's sword. That's one of the main reasons why I wanted the old forest / bombadil / barrow downs scenes in so he could get his Sword from Tom.

PPS Gandalf has grown since movie 1, so why not the Witch King?

PPPS Yes, Gandalf DID beat the Balrog but at what price? His Death.

PPPPS Saruman was a broken man already defeated, found out as a treasoner and therefore stripped of his powers as head of the Council before Gandalf broke his staff.

PPPPPS I'm only playing Devil's advocate here by the way.......

[narfforc]

I would like to add a few more points on this. Firstly on Weathertop Strider says "Sauron can put fire to evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, AND FEAR THOSE WHO WIELD IT. Gandalf upon the Bridge of Khazad-Dum says "I am a servent of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor", he wasnt talking about the latest fireworks, and we keep forgetting Narya The Ring of Fire. Secondly I would like to point out a popular misquote, Obluquy says that Sauron is naught but an eyeball, that is but the Eye of Sauron, as The Mouth is something else. How can Gollum who was born well after the destruction of Saurons body at the end of The Second Age, know that there are only four fingers on the black hand, in The Black Gate is Closed he says "Yes, He has only four fingers on The Black Hand", surely if he had been refering to popular myth he would have said "had" not "has", it is because he has seen the physical body of Sauron, also Denethor states "that Sauron will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won", that suspended eyeball is going have fun travelling without any legs or maybe it will sprout imaginary wings like the Balrogs (Sorry got carried away, I mean no offence). Thirdly I think the idea of Sauron giving The Witch-King more power could be a possibilty, but my inner feeling says no. This is not Sauron of The Second Age, This is a much reduced Sauron, remember he put much of his power into the One Ring and he hasnt got that. Also he has expended an awful amount of power rebuilding his power base and body, I just do not think there would be much left, and if there was any he would need it for control, read the last pages of Mount Doom to find out what happens when Saurons will is withdrawn from his minions.

I totally know what you're talking about. It's crazy how gandalf would be "afraid" of the witch king. I mean come on he even breaks his staff!! I think it's all crazy and Gandalf should not be afraid of him, even if no man has ever killed him. It bothered me, too.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Gondor Girl

It bothered me, too.

Welcome. And that scene is what got me started ranting here.

[alatar]

So I was watching ROTK EE yet again, and a new question arose: How many Gondorians did Gandalf kill?

From the books, we have the noncombatants already out the city. When Gandalf meets the Witch-King at the main gate, they exchange some words and then the WK leaves (whether because of Gandalf or the Rohirrim - we've covered that already). The enemy does not enter the city, and Gandalf goes off in pursuit of presumably the WK. Pippin tells him about the Faramir BBQ, and so Gandalf goes to help.

In PJ's world, Gandalf meets the three uber-trolls who come through the gate (just where are those kids from Gryffindor when you really need them?). He coordinates the resistance, slowing the advance of the enemy, but it's like holding back nighfall. There are many noncombatants running around the first level, who I assume where there looking to sell T-shirts ("Battle of the Pelennor Fields, 3019") to pay for therapy for their Steward...

Anyway, Gandalf yells out some really smart advice ("Fight for your lives!" Duh!) then hears Pippin calling. Next scene Ganadalf and Pippin are on Shadowfax up near/at the seventh circle of the city. After losing his staff, honor, seat to the WK, horns blow, the WK leaves and Gandalf proceeds with Pippin to save Faramir.

Next scene, Gandalf and Pippin await the enemy high up in Minas Tirith.

So, my point is that Gandalf should have sacrificed the life of Faramir as (1) he could then have retained his staff, which could have been put to some use, (2) he could have saved many Gondorian soldiers and noncombatants in their flight from the first to the fifth/sixth/seventh circle (or wherever he sits to chat with Pippin) and (3) except for hanging out later with Eowyn for a few minutes, just what does Faramir do anyway, especially in terms of the current battle? If Gandalf were in need of dead/near dead bodies, I think that he needn't have looked very far.

Many commoners died because Gandalf thought it more important to save the Steward's son.

[Essex]

Pity about the Gondorians, but there's a thing called the domino affect. If Gandalf HAD gone after the Witch King, then we may have had a totally different order of events. If Gandalf did catch up with the WK and fought him on the fields, this may have totally changed the fact that Merry and Eowyn confronted him. The WK may have survived an ordeal with Gandalf, gotton away. This could have led to a defeat at Minas Tirith if the army of Sauron still had his leiutenant alive, and most importantly of all, the two Orc hunters that argue about the WK's death in earshot of Frodo and Sam would have no doubt picked up the hobbits trail if this had not happened and consequently they were not trying to kill each other.

Captured Frodo, captured Ring, end of Middle Earth as we know it.

Therefore, Gandalf not going after the WK servers many purposes in the story. It shows what a tight and well conceived plot Tolkien pieced together. Take out small (and sometimes seemingly trivial) parts, and the story will totally change.

So a few gondorians got it. Yeah, but Middle-earth was saved.

[alatar]

Essex, I think that you missed my point. In the movie, Gandalf did not have a chance to go after the WK - Shadowfax can't fly, and accepting PJ's version of ME, I'm not sure that that's a battle that Gandalf would have sought out. If we take it at 'screen' value, Gandalf was in fear of the WK.

What I was trying to say that in PJ's world, Gandalf leaves the front line of battle (where he may have been of some effect) to go and save Faramir. To me that is silly as if all of Minas Tirith were to fall, what good would have Gandalf's act been?

Tolkien, as you state, made this all make sense.

All you have to do is read JRR Tolkien's book......Gandalf learns of Theodens death
It quotes: Shall we weep or be glad? Beyond hope the Captin of our foes has been destroyed, and you have heard the echo of his last despair. But he has not gone without woe or bitter loss. And that I might have averted but for the madness of Denethor.
Gandalf is an Marai exactly the same as Sauron himself but is not permited to use all of his power which was part of the bargin of the chossen wizards coming to middle earth.
He is without question more powerful than the witch king....But all would know this if they really read the book and not just take what they want from words within and creat their own meanings

[Essex]

Ha Ha! The Movie page's most infamous thread has come back to haunt us.

Thank you, Valar, for resurrecting it, even though I disagree with the 'certainty' you state is shown in the book re Gandalf's power over the WK.

read your post again Valar. You will see a particular word highlighted here:

And that I might have averted but for the madness of Denethor.

Now if Gandalf was one thing, he definately wasn't modest. If he felt he could do something he would come right out and say it. But here we have him questioning himself re the possibility of defeating the WK, by the use of the word 'might'

PS your point

But all would know this if they really read the book and not just take what they want from words within and creat their own meanings

That is exactly why we have this forum for. You can have your own opinions on what Tolkien is saying. That is one of the reasons why the book is loved so much. For example, just one word taken a different way from Glorfindel's Prophecy re the Witch King sets up endless hours of conversation.

PPS Welcome to the Downs by the way

PPPS My eariler points on the WK being perhaps more Stronger in the film because this film needed a 'Baddie' to focus on. I feel vindicated because I've finally listened to the Directors' commentaries on the WK scenes, and they say pretty much what I implied. Because we don't see Sauron (after they made the wise decision to airbrush him out of the black gate fight scene) PJ and co decided they needed a 'baddie' to focus on, and the WK was next in line.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Valar

It quotes: Shall we weep or be glad? Beyond hope the Captin of our foes has been destroyed, and you have heard the echo of his last despair. But he has not gone without woe or bitter loss. And that I might have averted but for the madness of Denethor.

My favorite thread is back!

Anyway, though the misguided souls thoroughly entrenched in the 'Witch-King is stronger' camp may disagree , a fair reading of the entire quote would reveal that Gandalf is not talking about his encounter with the Witch-King, nor does the word might mean that he was in doubt as to the outcome of such a battle.

Gandalf is simply saying that the death of Theoden might have been averted. He may also be speaking about Eowyn, as if she were to die in the depths of the Black Breath, then that would be pretty bitter. The statement simply means that even if Gandalf fought the Witch-King to a 'tie' (as if!), the Witch-King might not then have had the time to make Snowmane kill Theoden.

Where the might comes in is that Gandalf does not know if Theoden would still have found his death on the battlefield, though by less interesting devices (stray arrow, stomped by a mumakil, impaled on a sharp stick after tripping over a prone Hobbit...).

And being a very wise wizard (aren't we all? ), Gandalf already has an alibi in case a pack of ravishing lawyers from Rohan show up with a wrongful death lawsuit - he's pinned the blame on the dead Steward. Dead men don't argue very well, Pippin is the only 'objective' witness and if Aragorn ascends to the throne, he would be able to sweep the whole incident under the rug.

[Essex]

Alatar, your point:

Where the might comes in is that Gandalf does not know if Theoden would still have found his death on the battlefield, though by less interesting devices (stray arrow, stomped by a mumakil, impaled on a sharp stick after tripping over a prone Hobbit...)

disagree, but again it comes down to how one reads the line and the character's traits.

As I said, Gandalf was not in the least Modest, and would state exactly what he meant and wanted whenever he could. Here, to me, he seems DOUBTFUL as to whether he could have stopped the WK's attack on Thedoen. Hopeful, yes, but not CERTAIN (and that is what I was trying to explain). And why would Gandalf state the obvious anyway? Of course Theoden could have been killed by arrow, etc, but that's War. It could have happened to anyone, and for Gandalf to say this would seem redundant.

And for the millionth time (but maybe the first for Valar), we are talking about what the Director and co had to do from a 'Movie' point of view. Having the WK ride in on a horse, speak a few words to Gandalf and then leave again would not have worked on film (as it DOES in the book). We needed a 'cliffhanger' , tension etc, and to show that the Rohirrim SAVED the DAY. This is how they chose to do it.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

As I said, Gandalf was not in the least Modest, and would state exactly what he meant and wanted whenever he could. Here, to me, he seems DOUBTFUL as to whether he could have stopped the WK's attack on Thedoen. Hopeful, yes, but not CERTAIN (and that is what I was trying to explain). And why would Gandalf state the obvious anyway? Of course Theoden could have been killed by arrow, etc, but that's War. It could have happened to anyone, and for Gandalf to say this would seem redundant.

Maybe Gandalf, like Galadriel, is aware of what could happen. He may have known that if he turned aside from the task of saving Faramir that a worse outcome would have resulted. And even knowing this, he still might have felt some guilt knowing that if he were at Thoeden's side that things may have turned out differently for Theoden and Eowyn. Can't be everywhere at once.

And for the millionth time (but maybe the first for Valar), we are talking about what the Director and co had to do from a 'Movie' point of view. Having the WK ride in on a horse, speak a few words to Gandalf and then leave again would not have worked on film (as it DOES in the book). We needed a 'cliffhanger' , tension etc, and to show that the Rohirrim SAVED the DAY. This is how they chose to do it.

Yep. In the movie there is no indication that Gandalf's presence on the battlefield would have made one whit of difference. Surely he is shown as a capable captain of men. After the staff-breaking he was reduced a leader who could wield a sword and do a few card tricks...

Note that I love the Rohirrim 'attack' scene - it's pretty emotional. PJ could have done something similar with Gandalf if he wanted to show him in a greater role - the gate scene wasn't as emotional.

Doesn't Gandalf 'down' one of the trolls? Have to review the scene again, but I think that he does. Note that though the Rohirrim save the day, they did not face any trolls.

And regarding the Rohirrim (and maybe this is another thread), was it the best thing for Theoden to line up his forces and meet the mumakil charge head on? I would have split up a bit and try to flank them.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Valar

Gandalf is an Marai exactly the same as Sauron himself but is not permited to use all of his power which was part of the bargin of the chossen wizards coming to middle earth. He is without question more powerful than the witch king....But all would know this if they really read the book and not just take what they want from words within and creat their own meanings

It is important to remember that the films do not portray the same story as that told in the book. Nor do they feature precisely the same characters. As far as I can recall, there is no reference in the films to Maiar, let alone any explanation of what they were.

There is little indication in the films that Gandalf is anything more than a Mannish wizard, albeit a very powerful one. Given the suggestion (for which there is book justification) that the Witch-king was "powered up" before the assault on Gondor and in light of what Essex points out concerning the film needing a major "baddie", I see no reason why, in the film, the Witch-king (after his "power up") should not be seen as equal in power to Gandalf. And, as I have said before, even if one were to view Gandalf as the stronger, there is no particular reason why he should not be bettered by a weaker opponent.