Tol-in-Gaurhoth III (The Saga Continues...)

[Shelob]

Alright...as I was going on what I recalled since I didn't really have time before supper to go back and read I was wrong in my assumption...

...giving them each a point when someone listed them as suspicous (so person A says "I suspect SpM" it counts as a point against Saucepan Man, person A then says "but I also suspect Phantom" it counts as a point against Phantom, if person A then says later "I still suspect Phantom" phantom doesn't get another point...)

anyway to continue...as the points stand that way (and admittedly it's not a very accurate way...) it's Saucepan Man: 4.5, Phantom 4 (Kuru hinted at SpM in post 175, but since he never named names I counted it only as a half a point)

I'm not sure how to read Holby's post (190)...it says simply that the most suspicion is on those two and actually seems to suggest an idea similar to Kuru's...worst comes to worst it boosts the points up to 5.5 and 5 accordingly...

Also while scanning for something I noticed that Kuru voted for Saucepan Man yesterday, having missed that earlier it seems more likely that you, Kuru, used Saucepan Man here simply as a continuation of your previous suspicions...

Since I have less homework than I expected I'll be on somewhat regularly this evening...and since TORE promises explanations I would rather wait to vote than vote hastily now...

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Well, well... This is an interesting situation! No one dead, and fingers pointing in all directions.

I'm going to wait a while longer before making up my mind who to vote for. There is a lot of interesting evidence against several different people.

Myself, I'm still inclined to be suspicious of Phantom , though he did bring up some points against others that I have to consider in order to make my vote. I do think, however, that his theory, while backed up by a lot of evidence, still seems like it could be an attempt to draw attention away from himself...It could easily mask guilt. Seeing as how you came quite close to being lynched last time, diversionary tactics are very possible.

It may be true, it may not. I have no idea.

I don't really know where to look first, there's so much going on...so I will wait a while before voting. I would hate to send another innocent to his or her death...at this point, there is a lot of stuff I need to weigh.

[the phantom]

Read this post, and read it carefully, and tell me if you honestly suspect me.

you have so closely avoided a hanging not once but twice

As I told Fordim, the fact that I've nearly been lynched before means absolutely nothing, since votes can only come from two sources- villagers who know nothing and werewolves who want to kill innocents.

it makes me suspect you may be getting desperate to be further from the noose this time round...

WHAT?!

You "suspect" that I don't want to get hung???

Duh!

OF COURSE I'm trying to get OUT of the NOOSE!!!

NOBODY wants to be in the noose!!!

It's one of the primary POINTS of the GAME!!!

How could you possibly point this out as being something that makes me look suspicious?!

Your SPM/TORE theory still seems too much like an attempt to divert attention from yourself

still seems like it could be an attempt to draw attention away from himself

Since when does an INNOCENT VILLAGER not want to turn attention away from himself and towards possible WEREWOLVES???

I would vote for Saucepan Man...but I would as willingly vote for you Phantom..

For today, I would like you to vote for someone who at least might be a werewolf.

Then, if you still feel like lynching a complete innocent, you can vote for me tomorrow.

but it seems to me that Phantom is slightly higher today in the town's rough "consensus" than is Saucepan Man

Yes, even after I've blown holes through the reasons why they suspect me.

Perhaps a large portion of the vocal townspeople are wolves? Ever think of that?

Now I'm going to hold a conversation between myself and my accusers to point out how flimsy the reasoning is behind my guilt....

"Phantom, you're trying to get our attention off of you."

Um, yeah. So what? That doesn't mean anything. Isn't an innocent supposed to avoid getting lynched and try to lynch wolves?

"Phantom, people have voted for you the past two rounds."

Um, yeah. So what? Any innocent casting a vote has no definite knowledge, and if it was wolves trying to lynch me then that would support my innocence.

"Phantom, two people who are dead voted for you.

Um, yeah. So what? Did they know anything? No. Did I lead the charge to lynch them? No. Were either of them killed in the night? No.

I mean- COME ON, PEOPLE!!!

Does anyone actually have a REASON to suspect me???

A REAL reason???

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I didn't say my suspicion of you was definite, Phantom. I said:

It may be true, it may not. I have no idea.

I am still thinking. I still do not know for sure.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

It has been about two hours and no one has posted.

Could it be that my posts have struck home and the wolves are feeling pinned down and trying to decide how to turn the tide back without looking too obvious?

I hope that is the reason for the silence.

I can tell you my reason for not posting is that a preacher may grow weary of preaching when his advice is not heeded. I admit I am not nearly as eloquent as many others in our village but that doesn't make my points and theories less valid, just more difficult to understand .

I know that the phantom would have us believe otherwise but I find it rather telling that both known innocents voted for you. Why I think this means something is that we know that they had no hidden agenda or weren't in cahoots with the wolves, so they truly suspected you. I suggest all other true innocents look at that and think that there must be a reason that they suspected him. Unless there is some major compelling evidence otherwise I think I will be voting for the phantom (again) tonight. I find SpM suspicious but just not as suspicious as I do the phantom.

He has voted for both innocents and both voted for him.

[the phantom]

we know that they had no hidden agenda or weren't in cahoots with the wolves, so they truly suspected you

I have no doubt they did.

And I also have no doubt that, since they had zero concrete knowledge, they were both taking a shot in the dark. And I would add that it was mostly their blind selection of me that forced me to vote for them.

No matter how much you would like to believe it, the vote of a villager with no definite knowledge carries absolutely no weight in determining guilt. Can you honestly not see this?

If I get lynched today and proven innocent, but before I die I cast my vote for you- would that suddenly make you more suspicious than you are? Would it change anything?

No, because I don't have a clue who the wolf is, therefore my vote should not carry much weight.

[mormegil]

sorry for the double post but I didn't see phantom's and azaleia's post yet.

the phantom just said.

Um, yeah. So what? Did they know anything? No. Did I lead the charge to lynch them? No. Were either of them killed in the night? No.

I mean- COME ON, PEOPLE!!!

I think the fact that you didn't lead the charge is very suspicious. Why would a wolf make a common habit of spearheading that? It's more likely for them to be the second or third voice, though I don't eliminate the possiblity of a wolf leading the charge. I think that by your own admission of that you appear more culpable.

[Firefoot]

Phantom, (for me at least), it's not so much that you are trying to escape the noose as how you are trying to do it. You are doing two things: getting very defensive and launching heavy duty attacks. It feels desperate (granted, you could be a desperate innocent. No one but the wolves know for sure). But, in-those-games-that-must-not-be-named, when I was a wolf and mormegil started firing heavy-duty attacks on me, I was pulling every evasive and attacking maneouver I could logically find to get the blame off of me (ah, it didn't work. Obviously). When I read your posts, it feels very similar in tone to what I wrote in that first game. I'm drawing from my own experiences (wrongly, perhaps), and this is what I get out of it.

The other problem I have had is that I have hitherto not felt a lot of suspicion towards either SpM or TORE or, in the past two days, Fordim. I realize that SpM has led the charge in the voting of Evisse and SoN, but to me it feels like an honest mistake, maybe because I was making the same ones, even if I didn't actually vote for Evisse. Again, I'm drawing from my own experiences.

The other thing is that you have been careful to distance yourself off from other players; I have some thoughts but no clear idea on who you might be a wolf with. This seems to me to be a good plan for the wolves, since then if one of you goes down, then the rest of you wouldn't. Whereas, if you were to vote for SpM and he was to be a wolf, there would not be much trouble in picking out companions. I have no doubt that accusations would fly in my direction, as well as Fordim's and maybe TORE's, based on your latest post. This does not seem to be a very good werewolf strategy to me.

So that's why I'm suspicious of you, phantom. I don't know if this qualifies for a REAL reason or not, but there it is: my own combination of instinct and reasoning.

[Kuruharan]

Hold on. Kuru, if you're so confident in your plan why didn't you just vote?

It is called being consistant. As I'm sure you have noticed from other places I'm opposed to hasty voting as a matter of principle.

Also while scanning for something I noticed that Kuru voted for Saucepan Man yesterday, having missed that earlier it seems more likely that you, Kuru, used Saucepan Man here simply as a continuation of your previous suspicions

Yes, that is correct. I think Saucepan Man is a werewolf.

I am rather hungry at the moment and want to go eat dinner, so I'm going to save my BIG GRAND THEORY until I return. However, before I go I want to restate my question.

Is there anyone here who is not seriously suspicious of Saucepan Man? The Phantom may be a werewolf, I don't know. But if most people are suspicious of Saucepan, shouldn't we put that theory to the test? If Saucepan proves to be a wolf then we can spend the rest of the time bickering over who to hang next (and that discussion would include the phantom).

I'm afraid the whole point of Saucepan Man laying low was to have people forget about him in his absence. It seems to be working to the necessary extent of getting people to give him another DAY.

[the phantom]

when I was a wolf and mormegil started firing heavy-duty attacks on me

Morm was a seer in that game. No one who is accusing me is a seer. Morm knew you were a wolf. No one knows if I am.

Just thought I'd point that out.

The other thing is that you have been careful to distance yourself off from other players

Um, I don't get it. You are suspecting me because I haven't buddied up?

Considering that villagers know nothing, why would ANY innocent villager NOT distance himself from everyone?

A villager has no way of knowing who is a wolf, so why in the world would he buddy up with someone?

And plus, why would a wolf distance himself from everyone? A wolf wouldn't be at all concerned if he got buddied up with an innocent. That would be a perfect position for a wolf.

Your claim makes no logical sense.

Once again, someone has pointed out something that is just a fact of the game and somehow tried to make me look guilty.

Once again, I have showed that the reasoning behind their suspicion is meaningless.

This is getting tiresome.

[Oddwen]

Are we fortunate that none died or unfortunate? If we are unfortunate, the number of wolves has increased, but if fortunate the guardian knows one person who is innocent.

And what's this - the Phantom throwing a temper tantrum? We're either very close or very obtuse.

I'll have more in a few hours.

[Shelob]

WHAT?!

You "suspect" that I don't want to get hung???

Actually I suspected that you were getting desperate... and I'm gathering that I should be speaking in bullet points, it would cause less confusion...

>Phantom I understand your points.
>However, I still don't believe you enough to say "Oh, well given that The Phantom must be innocent."
>Your point about the votes against you:
"Um, yeah. So what? Any innocent casting a vote has no definite knowledge, and if it was wolves trying to lynch me then that would support my innocence."

what about looking at it like this (and for this I'm assuming that you're telling the truth...since this is for your benefit and you're clearly not going to say anything different)

--you tell us that you're innocent and that therefore the majority of votes against you have been cast by werewolves.
--we lynch you.
--your statement is proved true and you're innocent
--all our sights would be turned on those who voted for you, esp. if they voted for you twice
--The werewolves then wouldn't be able to kill anyone who voted for you because those people would either be werewolves themselves or the werewolves only defense against the gallows
--The next day the werewolves would be really nervous because they would have to divert attention away from their member(s) who voted for you and turn the general opinion against an innocent

>doesn't it follow that one at least of them would slip up somewhere, and that we would finally be able to get a werewolf


>I'm not saying "Oh let's Kill Phantom because of this one possibility"...
>However if you are so sure of your innocence your death could potentially lead us to a werewolf...(so your being lynched would have been a greater help to our villager than your protesting vehemently)
>And if you're a werewolf then we've evened the odds...(and you, knowing this, would try to avoid being lynched)

>well?

[Firefoot]

Your claim makes no logical sense.

I figured you would say that. You asked why, and I told you why; I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree with me. I get the feeling that you are (deliberately or not) missing my point, but that may have been some error on my part. It makes sense in my head, but I have difficulty putting it down on the screen so that it makes sense. (And don't say that that is because it doesn't. I know what makes sense to me. ) I stated my opinion, and it stands, at least for now. I'm sorry if you think my suspicions are meaningless and without reason. In fact, I expected you to think so. I'm sorry if you're tired of this. But it's how I feel, and you asked first.

[the phantom]

Nice, Shelob. It's nice to see someone doing some real thinking about my guilt/innocence and possible lynching.

There is a big danger in your plan, though. What if no wolves have voted for me thus far? It's easily possible.

So if you lynch me, find out I'm innocent, and then lynch those who voted for me, you'll just be lynching more innocents.

Everyone, listen up. If I get lynched today, DO NOT assume that the people who voted for me before are the wolves. They might be, but maybe not.

I get the feeling that you are (deliberately or not) missing my point

No, how could I miss your point? You stated it plainly. You said that the fact that I am completely by myself an unattached makes me likely to be a wolf.

I responded by pointing out that a villager has much more of a reason to be unattached.

My point is easy to understand and logically sound, so I'm not sure why your opinion hasn't changed.

[The Only Real Estel]

The Evisse vote first.

Originally posted my 'TORE' (me):

My gut feeling was most certainly not Evisse, I was going to vote for the phantom, but allowed my head to talk me out of it until it was to late & I found myself forced to vote for Evisse because the vote count was 4 for Evisse and 3 for phantom. Obviously that problem with this vote count is that any werewolf could swoop in at the last second & lynch two villagers – this I obviously could not be responsible for letting happen. After waiting to see if I could catch a wolf trying to tie the vote, I then cast my vote at the last possible second for Evisse.

I've obviously posted this before, now I post it again. While I realize it would've been risky for a wolf to go for the double-lynching angle, I can think of a few people at least that I think have the wits to pull it off and come out of it looking innocent.

Now for the SoN vote.

Originally posted for Fordim:

And I would point out that TP and SpM had both voted for Sono before I, which is what caused the potential two or even three-way tie crisis, and that TORE waited until the last 15 minutes to vote after me

If my obvious suspicions are correct, then I may have prevented TORE from tying things yesterday

Yes Fordim, you did prevent me from tying things yesterday. I had hoped for a double lynching. Yes, I said that right. And yes, I am going to get some strange looks for admitting this, but here my reasoning. I was 90% sure of both SoN's & SpM's guilt, so I saw a great opportunity to lynch two wolves with one noose, especially since we are beginning to run out of time. I was hoping that Fordim would vote for Sauce and I could then tie it, but when he didn't, I saw there was little reason for me to hold my vote any longer. Now I'm not sure if I should be grateful for Fordim preventing this or not. SoN was hung anyway, so we killed an innocent. I was under the impression that SpM would probably go the next round no matter what. Therefore, if Sauce turns up wolfy, we could've saved a rounds worth of deliberations & hung a wolf along with the innocent. If Sauce & SoN both turned out to be innocent (which I find unlikely), then we at least would still have one more round's time left to work with - since an 'innocent' Saucey would most likely have gone this round anyway. But if they both would've been innocent I would've been violentyly shocked by electrical currents of suprise.

Originally posted by morm:

TORE seems to take sadistic pleasure out of being the last vote. Like Fordim he wants to make his vote count. As I don’t’ understand this philosophy of only voting those who are likely to die, there is great suspicion on you but not as much as the other four

The reason why I voted for one that was likely to die this time is because he was high on my suspect list anyway. The reason I voted for Evisse was to make sure two presumed innocents wouldn't both be hung (however unrealistic you might think it to be that the wolves would try such a bold plan).

I hope this clears up my reasoning for voting late in each of the first two rounds.

p.s. more to come soon...

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I've waited as late as possible to vote. I feel bad about having to go first, again, but my time zone is such that I will not get home from school until after the "DAY" is done.

So. My vote goes to ++Phantom again. Because I think he is acting the most guilty of anyone else here at the moment...

[The Only Real Estel]

Now it's time to answer tp's lengthy post about Sauce & I being in league together. (all quotes will be coming from tp unless posted otherwise)

Estel defended Saucy-
I think that this can surely be written off as jest-Kuru and Phantom have hardly been trustworthy figures in two past occasions (that I can’t name more fully because past villages aren’t supposed to be referenced ). A hard look at the beginning can really be no more than jest in my opinion.

Of course I defended him, I laughed at it because I was under the impression that it was a joke & shouldn't be used as evidence against him (especially not in that stage of the game!).

Estel agreed with Saucy-
As far as votes go I will say that I am leaning toward's Saucepan's theory

Because it sounded like the best one out there - remember this is still at an early stage.

Saucy agreed with Estel-
Although I also agree with The Only Real Estel on this

Because what I said was true. We were both talking about you - does that mean that all three of us are wolves?

Also, Saucy used this argument several times in order to make Estel look innocent-
The remaining person to vote for Evisse was The Only Real Estel. But he voted at a time when he could have acheived a double-lynching (the phantom and Evisse). So, unless the phantom is a Werewolf, that speaks in his favour.

My response to that- why would a wolf favor a double lynching? If you recall, we wolves in the last town (Spawn, Nim, and I) had a double lynching handed to us but we refused to take it. Why? Because it is better to keep a likely-to-get-lynched person alive for one more day to lynch them then because it gives you an extra night to kill.

Although I appreciated the defense I also saw that it might be a bit of a stretch - it would take a bold wolf to try such a plan. Still, that could be used later by the wolf as evidence that he tried the duece in good faith, you never know.
Funny you mention this quote, though, because I thought it a bit of a stretch & already suspected both you, phantom & Saucey; and wondered if SpM was trying to set me up so that if you ever got lynched (and turned up a wolf), he could pull this quote out & lead a mob towards me. This way he could at least get one innocent villager out of losing his partner.

And what about Estel's Saucy-phantom-SoN theory? He included Saucy on there in case Saucy got lynched (it would make Estel look innocent). But he purposefully grouped Saucy with SoN and I since it was possible that either SoN or I would be lynched. You see, he tied two people who he knew to be innocent to Saucy so that when SoN or I got lynched and proven innocent it would make Saucy look innocent, too. Very clever. That is exactly what I would do if I was a wolf

Interesting theory. But it doesn't have much evidence behind it. You could take almost any unsuspecting villager and weave him or her in a web such as this.

In addition, Estel continues to "suspect" Saucy all the way until the end of the day, but votes for SoN instead. Is this pattern going to continue- always suspecting Saucy but never actually voting for him?

Because SoN had the majority of the votes, Sauce was not going anyway, &, most importantly, I suspected SoN as much as I did Saucey (hmm, I've had to post something like this at least three times by now, I think). Unless I hear a whole lot of evidence to Sauce's innocence (and I doubt I'll hear anything to change my mind), I will be voting for Sauce tonight. Or will you say that my vote is just to seperate us as well?

Also, look at the opinions of those who have died
SoN was suspicious of Estel-
I think we ought to hang ++The Only Real Estel. I'd be foolish to try and explain the decision beyond saying that his posts don't sit right with me and I don't know why. Only time'll tell if I'm right.
SoN was suspicious of Saucy too-
A sinister possibility has been growing in my mind, though: that both The Saucepan Man and Fordim Hedgethistle are werewolves

SoN based his day one accusation on a gut feeling, as far as I know he never mentioned me again, seemingly backing off his original vote. Hmm, SoN suspected Sauce & Fordim, so that must mean that Sauce & Estel are working together! I see you're logic...no wait, I don't. Btw, SoN was suspicious of phantom also, here it is in his own words:

Originally posted by SoN:

I suppose my fate is sealed, but I still suspect ++the phantom more than I do myself.

Suspecting phantom more than he does himself is not saying much, that would go for everybody. Voting for phantom is saying something, especially if you're using votes as concretly as tp has tried to do with SoN's 'no evidence, but a gut feeling' vote of me.

There! I've made my case for Saucy and Estel!

Yes, and you've also heightened my suspicions of you.

I am glad to see that you are making an effort to back up your theory by using quotes, etc.; but they are tied together by so flimsy a string that it looks like an escape plan to me.

edit: coming later (aroudn 9:30 central time? A defense of phantom..from me!? Also, I hope to vote...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

This will be my absolute last chance to put up anything of substance before the deadline tomorrow. I won't vote yet as it takes but a minute to do that, but I did have just one more thing to add to this growing mix...

It sure looks to me at the moment that we are in a two horse race with SpM and TP as our prime candidates for lynching. I've already outlined my reasons for suspecting both so shan't go into those again here. I will be checking in on the debate until tomorrow morning, but at this point my vote is going to be for The Phantom (BUT THAT'S NOT MY OFFICIAL VOTE! I want to see what happens when the voting actually begins) -- not because I am more convinced of his guilt than I am of Saucy's but because even if he is innocent, TP is doing more to hinder the villagers than help us.

Put bluntly, TP is either a wolf or an innocent who is helping the wolves by distracting our attention with his own suspicious behaviour, and slinging enough mud around to fill a horse paddock. While it would be ideal for us to kill a wolf, there's always the chance that we might kill an innocent -- so by lynching the Phantom we can at least minimise the damage by ridding ourselves of the distraction.

And here's the really brutal part: the Phantom has floated a lot of opinions and put forward a lot of theories -- they may be good or they may not. The problem is, I can't really assess them because I don't know if I can trust him. So even if he isn't a wolf, lynching him will tell me that he's an innocent and I can assess his posts more usefully.

Please do not misunderstand me: I am not saying that I don't care if he is a wolf or not, nor am I suggesting that killing an innocent can be beneficial to us in any way. I'm only saying that the damage to us is minimised if we kill an innocent Phantom rather than an innocent Spm.

Some highly theoretical math:

Given that I believe (and I think many others do too) that there is a roughly equal chance of either TP or SPM being a wolf:

Lynching TP brings the potential benefit of killing a wolf which decreases their numbers by 1.

Lynching SpM brings the exact same potential benefit: one less wolf. Given the equivalent value of 1 they cancel each other out: there's no difference between the two.

Lynching TP brings the potential danger of killing an innocent which decreases our numbers by 1. Again the same danger comes with Spm -- so still, no difference.

But then we come to the more intangibles. Killing an innocent TP brings the benefit of removing his confusing posts from the mix, and clarifying the real status of his posts to date. Killing an innocent SpM carries no equivalent benefit.

So it's close, but it seems to me the logical choice to vote for The Phantom: the only reason I won't do so right now is that my line of reasoning begins with and depends upon the idea that there is an equivalent chance that TP and SPM are wolves: I want to wait and make sure that this does not change in the next few hours.

To Bed!

[Shelob]

"There is a big danger in your plan, though. What if no wolves have voted for me thus far? It's easily possible."

True...but if you're jotting down ideas every chance your parents leave the room 'cause you're supposed to be cleaning then you're bound to miss something...

...If no wolves voted for you...hmmm...

Off the top of my head I would say that we should look then not only at those who voted for you but also at those who were most vocal about your guilt...it widens the field slightly which gives the werewolves more free range...but it also makes it more likely that there's a werewolf/some werewovles in the group... It would be a gamble but then that whole idea is a gamble...

...allright...for about an hour I'm doing homework...I might check here but I'll have no time to post...after that I'll likely be back on to respond to ideas...since This day started at 10am for me I would prefer to hold my vote until the morning but depending on how things go I may vote before going to bed...Just in case you wonder why I've vanished.

[mormegil]

This is a bit of speculation on my part but it's a thought that occured to me that I wanted to present. There is a possibility that if the phantom is a wolf that SpM could still be one and vice versa. They both know that they are at the top of about everybody's list, so it would seem logical that they would disassociate themselves and even attack each other. Though we haven't heard yet from SpM on much today. See how that works. They talk and formulate the plan for this day that at least the phantom will attack SpM because they are going to be lynched. Therefore when we kill one the other would be exonerated. There's obviously no guarantee that I'm correct but it's food for thought.

TORE sorry this is backed up by any quotes but at least entertain the idea.

Fordim I like the thinking about why to lynch the phantom before SpM and I believe there is merit in it.

[Kuruharan]

I'm working on my post. It is just taking me awhile because I've got a lot of ground to cover.

I'd like to ask that (seeing as how I'm one of the few voices attempting to speak in favor of another idea than the currently popular one) the deluge of voting not start until I have a chance to finish.

I'd also like to note that nobody has really gone to the bother to answer my question yet.

[The Only Real Estel]

Suprisingly, I find myself doing this, after calming down a bit.
First off, this is not at all a total vote of confidence in phantom! But I do have something I feel is important for you guys to think about.

I'll admit that my suspicions of tp have been heightened to the point that I was considering voting for him tonight. Then I remembered The Saucepan Man. Sauce has posted only once today (that I saw right off hand), & seems to be flying somewhat under the radar. I am still very suspicious of Sauce, & I realized that although I have been keeping an eye on the phantom almost the whole time; perhaps the reason why I am now more suspicious of him is because I know that he has posted accusing an innocent (me). Before I could never know for sure, of course.

I didn't find any real evidence in his SpM/Estel claim, so that made me suspect, added to the fact that I already know his theory to be false. But the fact remains that he may have simply been trying to make something out of a mess that has been our village. I saw no real evidence, but it is hard to come by concrete evidence, after all. I know his theory to be wrong, but I myself posted a very well thought-out theory (or so I thought) of my own that included the late SoN. Obivously I would like to think one can make an honest mistake. Another thing is this: Although I have heard the phrase "you can always tell who is at fault by who denies his guilt most vehemently," I am not sure that it quite applies here. Phantom has certainly denied his guilt loudly, & that is partially what has gotten him to the top of most people's 'lynch list.' But it is sometimes hard to keep your voice down when you feel that other people's accusations of you are especially ludicrous. I wouldn't say that I 'got mad,' but you can probably detect an edge in my voice at times when I replied to phantom's theory involving me.

Besides, there's just something about his posts that doesn't seem to add up. If he were a wolf I would expect him to be more subtle when faced with accusations. His tone of late seems to be one of desperation, as if he can see the village's votes are beginning to be directed towards another innocent (him) & he has to save us from ourselves. Of course it might just be that he is desperate to not be hung so that we'll hang another innocent again instead of his wolfish self, but I'm not sure that this is the case.

This is not at all a total vote of confidence in phantom!

I said it to start, & I'll say it to finish. But I would like to see the phantom live another day, what happens if he does, I cannot guarantee. I think The Saucepan Man is the one to go.

[The Only Real Estel]

Sorry to double-post but since the first was meant to be soley a potential defense of the phantom's behavior I think this will be allowed.

Originally posted by morm:

There is a possibility that if the phantom is a wolf that SpM could still be one and vice versa. They both know that they are at the top of about everybody's list, so it would seem logical that they would disassociate themselves and even attack each other.

Of course there is! Although Fordim did say a long, long time ago (forgive me for not having the exact quote ) that "votes are the only real evidence," votes can very easily be manipulated by wolves. If you have any doubts, just revist phantom's 'random thoughts' page on the happenings in the last village.

Originally posted by morm:

TORE sorry this is backed up by any quotes but at least entertain the idea

Of course I will (as you saw above). I hardly expect everyone to always go back & grab the quotes, but if your'e going to go to the work of formulating a long theory like phantom did than quotes help to give it at least some credence.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm afraid the whole point of Saucepan Man laying low was to have people forget about him in his absence. It seems to be working to the necessary extent of getting people to give him another DAY.

Well, I have had things to do. But the timing was good. I did, and still do, intend to lay low, just as I stated that I would at the outset of today's proceedings. But that's not because I am trying to make people forget about me. I knew after the outcome of yesterday's vote that I would be very much in the frame for today's lynching, and I doubted that anything which I might or might not say would change that. That remains the case (as is clear from what people have been saying). I am also nervous of accusing anyone now, since my previous attempts to find a Werewolf have gone seriously awry. It is dreadfully important that a Werewolf gets hung today and, right now, I am very much afraid of accusing yet another innocent.

Should I attempt to defend myself? Well, I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. If I do, it will be construed as a desperate attempt to save my neck from the noose. If I don't, it will be seen as an attempt to appear honest and genuine. Either way, wolfish motives will be ascribed.

But I will say this. Consider the evidence against me. I was instrumental in the hanging of two innocents. That's pretty strong evidence, isn’t it? Except when you consider (as has been said many times today) that we were all (with three notable, but unknown, exceptions) pretty much shooting in the dark for the first two days. In many ways, we still are. Yes, I pretty much started the ball rolling in both cases. But you all have your own minds and were perfectly capable of rejecting the arguments that I was putting forward. Yet, on each of the previous days, a number of you thought that my ideas made sense (although some of you no doubt did so with ulterior motives), just as they did to me. I would ask that you consider whether my behaviour over the last two days has been that of someone genuinely (if misguidedly) trying to seek out the Werwolves, or a deliberate attempt to lead the village into killing two innocents. If you conclude the latter, then so be it.

As for the remaining evidence against me, this consists of extracts from what I have said either in accusation or in support of one villager or another. Yes, theories against me can be built from those (albeit often quite convoluted ones involving a large degree of “double bluff“), but the same can be said of the things that (almost) every other villager has said.

As I indicated, I am not going to point the finger at anyone today. I will review what others say and vote accordingly at the end of the day. Although I have a few ideas, I currently remain very unsure of who the Werewolves may be, and I do not want to lead anyone down the wrong road yet again. I have made that mistake, and unwittingly done much of the Werewolves’ work for them, for two days running, and do not intend to do so again.

I will, however, make three points that I think may be of relevance.

It seems to me quite possible that on at least one occasion during the previous two days, one Werewolf will have voted for another. If so, it will have been done when it seemed safest to do so, ie when it would not (or would have been unlikely to) have resulted in that person’s lynching. Then, if the voter was then lynched and found to be a Werewolf, the votee would be able to distance themselves from him or her on the basis of that vote. It is only a possibility and is unlikely to have happened more than once (if at all), given the closeness of the voting.

Secondly, I think that people ought to pay some attention to the “tail end Charlie” role. It would seem sensible for the Werewolves to appoint one of their number (although probably not the same person on consecutive days) to hang around at the end of the day and see if they can catch a double (or even triple) lynching. I don’t buy the phantom’s theory that a double lynching would not necessarily benefit the Werewolves. I think it likely that they would go for it if they thought that they could get away with it, since there will always be other villagers to subtly maneuvre into the frame the next day. Given their greater knowledge, they would surely be fairly confident of doing so. That said, it would also be sensible for one or two innocent villagers to hang around at the end of the day to prevent a double lynching (or even catch a double-Werewolf lynching, if they felt sufficiently confident of doing so). So, the fact that someone is, or makes a habit of, hanging around at the end of the day is not necessarily an indication of their guilt. But it would nevertheless be sensible to pay heed to the “tail end Charlies”.

Finally:

Originally Posted by the phantom

Duh!

OF COURSE I'm trying to get OUT of the NOOSE!!!

NOBODY wants to be in the noose!!!

It's one of the primary POINTS of the GAME!!!

Actually, that is not strictly true. An innocent villager should be less concerned about saving his or her own skin and more concerned about finding the Werewolves, even if that means saying and doing things that may result in his or her own death (either at the hands of the villagers or the claws of the Werewolves). This is a team game and the villagers should be working as a team (even if they don’t know their team mates), even if that means that an individual has to risk sacrificing him- or herself for the common good. So overly defensive behaviour is likely to be more indicative of a Werewolf than an innocent villager. I should note that I say that merely by way of an observation, rather than as an accusation.

In any event, it looks fairly likely that either the phantom or I will face the noose today. Obviously, your primary aim should be to lynch a Werewolf. I am not a Werewolf, but I would say that wouldn’t I. So Shelob’s point is a good one. You should also consider which one of us, in death, will tell you more, should we prove to be innocent. You will probably learn quite a bit from either of our deaths. But, if you think that you will learn more from mine, I will understand.

And now I’m off to crack open another barrel.

[the phantom]

Killing an innocent TP brings the benefit of removing his confusing posts from the mix, and clarifying the real status of his posts to date. Killing an innocent SpM carries no equivalent benefit.

Huh?

My posts are confusing?

You must be reading them wrong.

The arguments I've given in my defense have been 100% completely and utterly logical. Not confusing.

My attack posts on SP, Estel, Firefoot, and you were not as solid as my defense posts (obviously, since I'm not absolutely sure of anyone's guilt), but my attack posts were way less confusing than most of the ones gunning at me.

Other people seem to want to lynch me because of a gut feeling or because of meaningless circumstances- no logic involved. When they've tried to involve logic I've blown huge gaping holes in it.

Forgive my arrogance, but my reasoning is a billion times more sound than the majority of the stuff coming at me.

In addition, as Firefoot said earlier, I'm probably less tied to people than anyone else on here, so you would think that my death would be the least meaningful.

Phantom has certainly denied his guilt loudly, & that is partially what has gotten him to the top of most people's 'lynch list.' But it is sometimes hard to keep your voice down when you feel that other people's accusations of you are especially ludicrous.

YES!! EXACTLY!!

I don’t buy the phantom’s theory that a double lynching would not necessarily benefit the Werewolves. I think it likely that they would go for it if they thought that they could get away with it, since there will always be other villagers to subtly maneuvre into the frame the next day.

That's where you are wrong, SP. When there are two very easy to lynch suspects and no clear-cut favorites after that, it is NOT easy to just "subtly maneuvre" another villager in as the next victim after the favorites are gone. After the prime suspects are taken care of new ones have to be found and there is always the possibility that one of the new favorites would be a true wolf. The wolves want to keep this from happening, and so they take their time in lynching the guilty-looking ones and make multiple free kills during the night.

Take it from someone who has done it- that's usually the best way for a wolf to operate.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

That's where you are wrong, SP.

Quite possibly. I have been on most things so far.

But actually, I think that the Werewolves would see that as a risk worth taking, certainly while there are still three of them operating (and now there may be four). The Werewolves have got to whittle the villagers down, so they will have to move on from the "clear lynching favourites" sooner or later.

But why would you think it worth arguing against my theory, phantom? You have not been a "tail end Charlie" so far. Even if you think that it is unlikely, surely it is at least worth at least taking into account?

[The Only Real Estel]

Originally posted by Estel (me):

Phantom has certainly denied his guilt loudly, & that is partially what has gotten him to the top of most people's 'lynch list.' But it is sometimes hard to keep your voice down when you feel that other people's accusations of you are especially ludicrous.

Originally posted by the phantom:

YES!! EXACTLY!!

The problem with you though, phantom, is that your reputation precedes you. You have been known as a mysterious, sometimes hard to decipher character, so it is hard to tell whether something is out of character for you, or if you are just switching things up. And don't get to excited...I've only put you off until next DAY (if you do indeed last that long), then I'll give you another hard look.

[the phantom]

But why would you think it worth arguing against my theory, phantom? You have not been a "tail end Charlie" so far. Even if you think that it is unlikely, surely it is at least worth at least taking into account?

I am not generally opposed to your "tail end Charlie" theory. Kuru was a "tail end Charlie" in the first game.

I am only opposed to the thought that werewolves would probably try to achieve a double lynching. I don't think people should necessarily consider that when deciding who is a wolf. I felt the need to point it out so that in the future people keep this in mind when forming a theory.

[The Only Real Estel]

I'm 99% sure of my vote & will post it tommorrow morning in the 7 o'clock area (central time). I have no reason this time to be one of the last to vote (that I know of), so if everyone rushes their vote in so that I am one of the last again it will not be my fault.

[Kuruharan]

The length of this is probably going to make people not want to read it and I’m pretty sure I can see how this is going to go, but I’m going to speak my piece anyway. I am pleased to see that there seems to be a general impulse to wait as long as possible.

Okay, the first point is that on DAY ONE The Saucepan Man was the one who first mentioned Evisse’s name as his primary suspect and he mentioned her name three times before I ever mentioned her.

my suspicions are currently primarily directed towards Holbytlass, Evisse and SoN.
-The Saucepan Man post #48

My inclination, therefore, would be to lynch either Evisse or SoN
-The Saucepan Man post #61

Or do I follow my previous strategy and vote for Evisse or SoN?
-The Saucepan Man post #62

(Notice how he had picked the first two lynching victims well in advance of the main event.)

I did not mention Evisse until post #63 when I gave voice to the uneasiness I felt about her. Then in her next post she said something that made me more nervous.

Then in his next post, The Saucepan Man encouraged me in my belief and Evisse suddenly has a much more prominent role in his speech…

Yes, I noticed that too, although it was hedged in such a way as to not look like too much of a reversal.
-and-
I would expect the "supporting" Werewolves to be forthright in their support for the proposals, while suitably hedging their comments with caveats which they could later use to distance themselves from the proposals. Which is precisely what Evisse did
-and-
In fact Evisse seems to be doing a lot of hedging ...

I still have time, but I have pretty much narrowed my vote down to her.
-The Saucepan Man post #76

And then in post #83 he actually voted for her before I did. In fact, he was ahead of me in just about every step on that road.

Now, a good bit of werewolf strategy on DAY ONE is to set somebody up to be lynched by mistake on DAY TWO. I freely admit that I had a rather forward role in Evisse’s death and that played right into somebody’s claws. I light of this we have…

That was what convinced me to vote for her (prompted, as I note below, by Kuruharan)
-and-
But it was Kuruharan's comments that tipped me towards Evisse
-and-
And I am now particularly suspicious of Kuru
-The Saucepan Man post #106

You will note how he immediately began harping on me as his primary suspect and playing up my role in Evisse’s death. That was the moment that I became suspicious of him because I know that I am innocent (and still am innocent, just in case we have a cursed werewolf running amuck).

After I made my post about watching people who were vocal against me, The Saucepan Man goes quiet for hours on end, a fact I noted in post #113, even though if you take a look at his posting record you can see that he was still around during that time. After I say this he pops up less than half an hour later to try to lull to sleep any suspicions my comments might have aroused (post #115)

It was post #120 when I first made an open accusation in Saucepan’s general direction.

In post #124 he contradicts himself (and returns to the old theme of blaming me for Evisse’s death) when he says…

The first is Kuru. He pretty much followed the “under the radar” strategy on Day 1, but ended up edging me towards Evisse and voting for her himself.
-The Saucepan Man post #124

If I was really “flying under the radar” I was not doing a very good job of it if I were so instrumental in his decision to vote for Evisse. In fact, “flying under the radar” implies saying as little as possible although by Saucepan’s account I was egging him on to kill Evisse, which I think I have shown is a matter of some degree of dubiousness (something that I think Saucepan thinks too. More about that below).

In post #128 I repeated my earlier challenge to lynch me and find out if I was telling the truth.

In his next post he says…

What is your evidence against me Kuru? The fact that I voted against Evisse (thanks largely to you)
-The Saucepan Man post #134

Note how he is again trying to tie me to Evisse’s slaying.

In post #138 I called him on his role in Evisse’s hanging (and repeated my willingness to be lynched if it would prove my point.) In post #141 I voted against him and again repeated my challenge to lynch me to test my veracity.

I think at this point I had the werewolves, and specifically Saucepan Man, a little scared. We now get back to the Evisse hanging issue.

In his next post he said…

and I find myself questioning the conclusions that I am reaching.

Take Kuruharan, for example. Earlier today, I was convinced of his guilt on the basis that he edged me towards voting for Evisse yesterday, was directing the voting towards me today and was protesting his innocence too much in the face of very few accusations against him. But this can all be explained innocently. His conclusions concerning Evisse yesterday may well (like mine) have been genuine, he may genuinely (but mistakenly) believe me to be a Werewolf and, if he is innocent, his protestations are understandable.
-The Saucepan Man post #144

Notice how he is now falling all over himself to reverse course and keep me from being lynched because it would have been disastrous for him and probably a couple of his friends as well. He is also in this post utterly pooh-poohing any sinister connotation that could possibly be attached to Evisse’s slaying. This is a complete 180. I think it is not the least bit coincidental that it follows my challenging him on his role in Evisse’s death combined with my repeated invitations to lynch me. He is also trying to downplay any knowledge I may have gained about his role because I’d been accused, even though the accusations against me could hardly be described as “very few.” They were, in fact, repeated incessantly by himself and one or two others who I am ignoring for the present because they are not my targets this DAY.

If I was a Werewolf, do you really think that I would be taking on the role of "sacrificial wolf" to draw attention away from the others?
-The Saucepan Man post #144

As a matter of fact, I can positively attest that this is a quite viable werewolf strategy. It is not as if this has not been tried before . Let a highly visible wolf attract all the attention, delay its own death as long as possible, and then hope one or both of the others can slip through unnoticed at the end. I must say, if that is what the wolves are trying to do, it has certainly been working well thus far.

In post #147 he drops Son of Numenor’s name in from out of nowhere, returning to his secondary punching bag from DAY ONE.

But I will stick to my beliefs. And to put an end to this silly suggestion that I am somehow in league with SoN
-and-
And SoN's behaviour does seem the least explicable to me out of everyone.

So I shall vote for:

++ SON OF NUMENOR
-The Saucepan Man post #147

Notice how after that point he kept harping on Son of Numenor, keeping him in everyone’s mind.

And then we have today. A better job of flying under the radar you will never see. I could have taken a lesson or two from him on DAY ONE my ownself, if flying under the radar had been my intention. He makes one post (because he would be too painfully obvious if he did not) and then beat tracks for the tall grass. While he is gone, he does indeed fall off of most people’s radar, mainly due to the phantom drawing attention to himself and some other people stirring the pot.

Then we have my post #209 where I say…

I'm afraid the whole point of Saucepan Man laying low was to have people forget about him in his absence. It seems to be working to the necessary extent of getting people to give him another DAY.

And, LO AND BEHOLD…what happens. The Saucepan Man comes galloping back out from the tall grass trying to pooh-pooh the idea that there is anything sinister in his vanishing completely. Other parts of this post are also a real lu-lu.

But you all have your own minds and were perfectly capable of rejecting the arguments that I was putting forward.

As I noted before, you seem to have hooks through everybody’s jaws and you are now trying to pull on them by trying the whole “Oh, poor, poor, pathetic Saucepan” routine.

While he ever so reasonably and scrupulously avoids directly pointing any fingers at anyone (since as he admits, his advice has repeatedly led to the worst sort of mistakes) he does certainly give the village a shove in the direction of hanging the phantom. And in post #226 he is still at it. I personally think that even if he is not a werewolf, the very fact he is nudging us in that direction is a perfect reason not to hang the phantom this DAY. As he says, he’s not been right yet. At the very least we should do something that he does not want us to do. (Now just watch and see what he wants us to do…)

Now, a few other pieces of business…

Put bluntly, TP is either a wolf or an innocent who is helping the wolves by distracting our attention with his own suspicious behaviour, and slinging enough mud around to fill a horse paddock.
-Fordim

I fail to see how you of all people can be particularly accusatory in this regard. As far as I have observed this has been something of your own MO. I also fail to see why you can suspect the phantom over The Saucepan Man in this area. As a matter of fact, I think that if you are really honestly of that opinion you’d hang The Saucepan Man far sooner than the phantom.

I'm only saying that the damage to us is minimised if we kill an innocent Phantom rather than an innocent Spm.
-Fordim

A Saucepan Man who has specifically instigated the hanging of two innocents over a phantom who did not take a leading role in either (in spite of what might be said about the phantom’s motives in this…)? I’m skeptical of your reasoning (to put it mildly). Ockham’s Razor and all that…

Now I realize that all this is going to be construed that I am defending the phantom. That is not really my intent. I don’t know if the phantom is a werewolf. He might be. I’m intent on getting The Saucepan Man hung and this DAY I don’t really care about anybody else. I’ll worry about them later if I live to see it.

What I disagree with here is the course of action that a large number of you seem to be bent on taking. To me the evidence reads that there is a much stronger possibility that The Saucepan Man is a werewolf than the phantom. This does not mean that I believe the phantom is not a werewolf. It does mean that I think we should hang the Saucepan Man first and then see what happens before we start acting on different speculation.

However, no matter what I say you will believe I’m trying to defend the phantom. If you hang him and he proves to be a werewolf, I suppose it will look bad for me. But it’s looked bad for me already and as I said before I have no particular objection to being lynched if snapping my head off will put sense into some others. However, if he is proved to be innocent, perhaps then you will be in more of a mood to listen. (Although if he is proved innocent then I will probably be killed during the night because that would be the safest time to put me out of the way before anybody could start listening to me again). Of course, I thought you would be in more of a mood to listen today…

To ensure that Shelob cannot accuse me (again) of not having the courage of my convictions…

++ THE SAUCEPAN MAN

(Although on the other hand, Fordim does seem to spend an awful lot of time justifying hanging people he thinks might be innocent. This is his second one in a row. Notice how he has also made a rather strange adaptation of my own logic from DAY TWO.)

I also have no doubt that those of you who go to bed will just pop in to vote without reading all this and that this will all be ignored by those who do read it. Oh well, fortunes of war and all that sort of thing you know.

[Shelob]

Like TORE I'm all but sure of my vote...the only reason I'm not voting now is because Saucepan Man said

"You will probably learn quite a bit from either of our deaths. But, if you think that you will learn more from mine, I will understand."

Can anyone think of a reason why it would be better for us to lynch him? Ignoring all the suspicions flying around is there any reason why one of them (phantom or spm) is a better choice than the other?...I can't think of any now, so unless someone else can I know which way I'll be voting in the morning.

[Kuruharan]

As I suspected, people are not reading my post. Why do I even bother...

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

As I suspected, people are not reading my post. Why do I even bother...

That's a bit pouty of an attitude. I actually just finished your post...it is rather long so it took me a while and I am working so that makes it double difficult.

I see your logic and am inclined to agree with you as much as it pains me inside to not go with what I've been posting since day 1. I would like your promise though that if I do vote SpM tonight that you will do a detailed search of the phantom tomorrow as my logic is seemingly ludicrous and has no real merit.

[the phantom]

I personally think that even if he is not a werewolf, the very fact he is nudging us in that direction is a perfect reason not to hang the phantom this DAY. As he says, he’s not been right yet. At the very least we should do something that he does not want us to do.

Heh- can't argue with that.

Fordim said-

Put bluntly, TP is either a wolf or an innocent who is helping the wolves by distracting our attention with his own suspicious behaviour, and slinging enough mud around to fill a horse paddock.

And Kuru answered-

I also fail to see why you can suspect the phantom over The Saucepan Man in this area. As a matter of fact, I think that if you are really honestly of that opinion you’d hang The Saucepan Man far sooner than the phantom.

I agree with that.

A Saucepan Man who has specifically instigated the hanging of two innocents over a phantom who did not take a leading role in either...I’m skeptical of your reasoning (to put it mildly).

Good point again, Kuru. As I also pointed out, Fordim's preference of me over Saucy makes little sense.

To me the evidence reads that there is a much stronger possibility that The Saucepan Man is a werewolf than the phantom. This does not mean that I believe the phantom is not a werewolf. It does mean that I think we should hang the Saucepan Man first and then see what happens before we start acting on different speculation.

I completely agree.

Can anyone think of a reason why it would be better for us to lynch him? Ignoring all the suspicions flying around is there any reason why one of them (phantom or spm) is a better choice than the other?

Did you skip Kuru's post?

As I suspected, people are not reading my post. Why do I even bother...

I read it.

It was very good.

I was already going to cast my vote for Saucy, but now I am a bit more confident in my vote.

+ + The Saucepan Man

[Kuruharan]

That's a bit pouty of an attitude.

Yeah, you are probably right. I probably shouldn't have said that.

I was just giving vent to a little frustration because I'm going to have to be up much later than I'd intended tonight hunting down books for my professor on WORLDCAT because that post took a lot longer to make than I'd hoped.

Sorry Shelob.

[the phantom]

Oh, and Shelob, why aren't you willing to vote for Saucy before me? You voted for him yesterday- you might as well do it again and see if you were right.

Or did a werewolf bite change your mind?

[Kuruharan]

Or did a werewolf bite change your mind?

I'd been wondering that myself.

[Shelob]

"because I'm going to have to be up much later than I'd intended tonight" ~Kuru

I know how you feel...I'm not done with homework yet and when I finished my last post I told myself "That's it, no more Barrow-Downs until tomorrow" and look where I am...right back here...

"To ensure that Shelob cannot accuse me (again) of not having the courage of my convictions…" ~Kuru

I hope you don't mind but given that you also say 'Sorry Shelob. ' I'm reading this somewhat in the way of a jest...I hadn't actually ment to accuse you anything I was just wondering why since you seemed so sure you wouldn't just vote...Only to turn around and realize that I felt much the same way...



"Oh, and Shelob, why aren't you willing to vote for Saucy before me? You voted for him yesterday- you might as well do it again and see if you were right." ~Phantom

I was willing...I am willing...I will be willing...sorry, tenses have just about lost all meaning--and since it's now after 1 in the morning where I am I think you can forgive me for not fetting about it here, I'm saving fretting for the paper that's due tomorrow and still isn't finished...

What happened was I wondered why Kuru would suggest Saucepan Man when (as I was remembering) general suspicion seemed to be on you. I then had to go eat, when I came back I counted (as I described ye-many posts before) and realized that it was really really close and that SpM was by a hinted accusation actually ahead of you. After your outburst My mind was flitting through possibilities and landed upon the possibility I described in my bullet-point post.

Since that point I've been unable to work my mind around to seeing the advantages of killing Saucepan Man. I know that they're there...it's just my mind got itself caught between cleaning and homework to the point where the path it had already laid out here was clear and everything else gets detoured into my big end of the year project (mumblewhinecomplain)...that's why I asked "Can anyone think of a reason why it would be better for us to lynch him [SpM]?" I honestly can't given my state of mind right now.


As to this

"Or did a werewolf bite change your mind? "

Given my state of mind and My already proven inability to figure out what's said in jest and what isn't I'm going with the fact that Kuru seems to have taken this seriously to respond that what I've said above is true, whether or not you believe it is up to you...and if we're talking about bites I would like to point out that a veritable army of mosquitos have taken up residence in my room, I've got so many bites I probably wouldn't relize if a werewolf slipped one in...if, however, I turn into a mosquito tonight you'll know that were-wolves aren't the least of our problems, we'll have to deal with were-mosquitos too...

[the phantom]

Well, I'm off to bed so I won't be around to argue any more until shortly before the deadline.

As my last contribution to those of you who can't make up your minds, I'll provide links to all of my wonderful posts defending myself.

I am innocent. I'm super innocent. No wait, I'm extremely innocent. Or should I say entirely innocent. Or perhaps innocent as pure wind-driven snow. And don't forget I'm child-like innocent.

Read them and see if you can really support the case against me as much as you can support the case against Saucy.

[Kuruharan]

Or perhaps innocent as pure wind-driven snow.

I've started a fad.

I've got so many bites I probably wouldn't relize if a werewolf slipped one in...if, however, I turn into a mosquito tonight you'll know that were-wolves aren't the least of our problems, we'll have to deal with were-mosquitos too...

Is this a "yes?" This almost reads to me like a "yes."

If it is "yes" then the translation of that post is that The Saucepan Man is not online right now or Shelob hasn't yet been able to clear her turning on him with him yet.

(Let's see if that doesn't bring him out of the woodwork.)