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06-14-2007, 01:17 PM | #201 |
Gibbering Gibbet
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The Author is dead! But long live the disembodied Internet discussion board participant!
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06-14-2007, 01:17 PM | #202 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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06-14-2007, 01:30 PM | #203 | |
Spectre of Capitalism
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Derrida Your Life
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06-14-2007, 01:36 PM | #204 |
A Mere Boggart
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Any fool could have told him that Le Chicken was just trying to get away from the farmer who wanted to stuff its liver full of fat until it exploded.
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06-14-2007, 01:39 PM | #205 | |
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06-14-2007, 01:43 PM | #206 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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06-14-2007, 02:23 PM | #207 | |
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What's interesting is that whether they are being promoted as his replacement, his equal or his superior, they are all compared to Tolkien. Tolkien is the standard by which they are all measured. And those few who aren't compared to him seem to have an animus regarding him - one thinks of Moorcock & Pullman. It all seems to be about Tolkien in one way or another. |
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06-14-2007, 02:41 PM | #208 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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06-14-2007, 02:48 PM | #209 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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At its heart here it look like there is a contradiction which is sending two very different messages. One the one hand we have the oft-quoted statement from Tolkien
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But then we have his will over 20 years later - years of success and royalty checks and giving him something substantial to protect and give to others - where he now says its all up the legalisms of Estates and lawyers and rights and permissions. Obviously the will takes legal precedent over the 1951 statement in a letter. But I wonder what would be said in court if one wrote a dramatic play based on events only "sketched" from the First or Second Age, put music to it, employed artists to illustrate it and then offered it to the public. Even JRRT said that "a solitary art is not art". I agree that the legal force of the law would be employed to show the individual putting on this drama had no permission. They would most likely, most probably, lose in court. But I would love to hear the explaination of an Estate spokesperson on the witness stand who would have to publicly resolve the obvious contradiction. We also have the entire idea of what is DRAMA? Is it the strictly limited theater production associated with the stage? Or is it a broader definition that could be used to describe TV, films or other such things? It really seems to me that you can couch all this in very well meaning and high sounding terms and debate all about the nuances of the various issues but , in the end, this all comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. On all sides. |
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06-14-2007, 03:31 PM | #210 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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I am now assuming that the proposed new work(s) will be written by this unnamed 'genius'. Could you please tell me who you think is going to write this 'play'? Please, ONE name, one author who you think will do a decent job. Of course, I don't expect to get one - because whoever you name someone is going to object, & say they aren't the right person for the job. You see, the problem you have is that while in a fantasy world you can simply invent a writer of genius, in the real world you can't. Suitable writers don't just appear when you snap your fingers, or because you fancy reading a new M-e novel. Asking 'what would happen if someone wrote a 'dramatic play' (sic) based on First/Second Age events?' is a bit like asking 'What would happen if aliens landed in front of the White House & turned George Bush into a three headed chicken?' I can't prove that such an event is impossible, but before I spend time & energy speculating on how the free world would cope with a three headed chicken with its claw on The Button, I'd want some evidence its anything like a real possibility..... |
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06-14-2007, 03:59 PM | #211 | |
A Mere Boggart
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As for dramatisations - there have been many, many more than you would think. For example, I know of one of The Hobbit by Rony Robinson - no Tolkien expert, just a BBC Radio Sheffield DJ.
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06-14-2007, 05:02 PM | #212 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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But seriously (I always give reverence to Serious Cat), was Milton in it for the money? I seem to recall something about justifying the ways of God to man. Or the visionary Blake? Why must you assume the money would be the only motivator? It certainly wasn't uppermost in Tolkien's mind. Quote:
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06-14-2007, 05:15 PM | #213 | |
Haunting Spirit
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Of course I am probably only one of a few that hate to see the Tolkien ideas get raped by mass media and hack writers in an attempt to make money. If someone wants to write a play about elfs and shiny jewels then they can write the book first. Maybe they can even stretch their brains enough to actually produce a new story, not a rip-off of Tolkien. But then again most don't care they just want more ME stories, take take take until its all gone. Disregard Tolkien so long as we get more ME stories. We don't care about Tolkien nor his children or grandchildren, we wants it all precious, its ours. Sorry I not Gollum or Melkor or Sauron. I don't need to cut down Tolkien to make pretty jewels so I can think for one minute that I am as great of a writer as Tolkien, or that I deserve his light.
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06-14-2007, 05:29 PM | #214 |
Eagle of the Star
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Well, while we are at it, I nominate Valandil, moderator at www.entmoot.com . You can check some of his writtings:
Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court
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06-14-2007, 05:45 PM | #215 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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davem ... I have deep respect for your knowledge of Tolkien and his writings. I find your posts well written and well thought out.
However, comparing the writing of a drama about the First Age with the ridiculous possibility of aliens and Bush transforming into a chicken is simply absurd and demeans your own intelligence. One is a very real possibility given the realities of the world we live in. The other is just you being silly. What good does a comparison like this do? And I agree that Tolkien changed his mind from his earlier position. I agree that JRRT had that right and there is nothing wrong with his decision. I agree that he had a right to dispose of his property, real or intellectual or otherwise, anyway he deemed fit. Regardless, it is interesting that, at one time at least, his mind was of a different orientation regarding such contributions to his mythology. |
06-14-2007, 08:04 PM | #216 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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-- Dr. Samuel Johnson (1704-1789) Not saying this was necessarily Tolkien's case, as writing was his hobby for most of his life, not his vocation; however, based on his letters, he was certainly happy when those royalty checks began to come in regularly from Rayner & Unwin. "If a writer has to rob his mother, he will not hesitate; the 'Ode on a Grecian Urn' is worth any number of old ladies." -- William Faulkner (1897-1962) The above quote has nothing whatsoever to do with Tolkien; I just found it amusing. As far as the original premise of this thread, I believe Tolkien inferred that he would like others to add to his comsology, but as in many of his quotes he has proven to be elusively vague and infuriatingly contradictory. If you look at his early career, he was certainly interested in joint projects (with Lewis and the Inklings, for instance, and earlier with his schoolmates), but as he grew older he became more conservative and protective of his works, until at the end he only trusted his son, Christopher, with his corpus. I believe the entire idea of others working in tandem on his creation atrophied as he did. Now it is merely conjecture. One might as well ask whether balrogs have wings. *winks*
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 06-14-2007 at 09:29 PM. |
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06-15-2007, 12:00 AM | #217 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
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For now I'll just ask, is it worth it? Once the Estate authorises a new M-e novel the floodgates will be open. M-e will no-longer be Tolkien's creation, but a franchise. There will be a stream of novels, as with the Star Wars/Star Trek franchises, some good, some bad, accepted by some, rejected by others - & all of them, ultimately, unnecessary. Quote:
What you're suggesting (a 'genius' appearing to continue Tolkien's work, & enhance & deepen his creation) is just as 'absurd'. You only think its a real possibility because you've convinced yourself this 'genius' is out there, just waiting to start writing. |
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06-15-2007, 04:55 AM | #218 | ||
Eagle of the Star
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06-15-2007, 05:06 AM | #219 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Interesting in this context:
http://www.epinions.com/content_374810250884 Quote:
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06-15-2007, 06:25 AM | #220 |
A Mere Boggart
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You have to question just how any writer would cope with the enigma that is Tolkien and his style. He continues to confound us from beyond the grave. Children of Hurin is a whole new thing as far as he's concerned. In stark contrast even to some of the darkest points of Rings, in that work we see a wholly different Tolkien - one who does not think of Light, of Hope or of Joy. Then you read some of the more esoteric writings such as Osanwe Kenta and you realise he had some incredibly peculiar ideas hidden away. What else is there?
Then you also have his incredibly mercurial character - for every bold statement in a letter there is another which refutes it. He was at once a serious academic in a closed world and at the same time, a wicked joker given to ASBO-inducing pranks. He loved ancient literature and at the same time gorged on contemporary fiction. He read both The Times and The Observer. How would another writer cope with this unique author's wildly varying tone, vision and style? Could a non-British writer cope, given the subtle native nuances which his work is infused with? Would the new writer's personal vision deeply affect any new stories? And finally, are we being just like Tolkien's stagnant, decaying Elves, wanting to constantly go back to the past and read more stuff about Middle-earth, when if we have learned anything from reading his work, surely we should all be forging ahead and founding new worlds?
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06-15-2007, 07:38 AM | #221 | |
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 06-15-2007 at 07:48 AM. |
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06-15-2007, 09:01 AM | #222 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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06-15-2007, 10:25 AM | #223 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Perhaps Tolkien's creation was really the last of the Saga genre, rather than the first of the modern fantasy genre. And I think that's the problem with most fanfic - its written by people who read Tolkien in the wrong way. What I mean is that too many of them read Tolkien's stories as 'fantasy' novels, when in reality they belong with works like the Kalevala, the Eddas & the Icelandic Sagas. Anyone who is familiar with Saga literature would recognise CoH as pretty typical of that genre -in both substance & style. Most fanfic feels wrong because it is written in the wrong 'style' & forced to conform to the standards of modern fantasy. Anyone attempting to write a convincing M-e story would have to be steeped in the Sagas, & forget completely any fantasy (in fact any 'novels') they had read. Actually the closest thing I've read to CoH is Poul Anderson's 'The Broken Sword'. Maybe, just maybe, Anderson could have done it, but Anderson's dead.
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06-15-2007, 11:54 AM | #224 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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The important point is that millions of people believe that these accounts of gods and other supernatural beings are literally, historically true--and also that they were written (or "revealed") by one man. I hope you're not suddenly suggesting that the Author doesn't matter! Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 06-15-2007 at 12:28 PM. |
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06-15-2007, 12:26 PM | #225 | |
A Mere Boggart
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Apparently one of the main things about the Book of Mormon is the extent to which it was plagiarised - this is something I've been told by Mormons themselves, note, and read elsewhere. Joseph Smith didn't write that much of it.
Hmm, now with texts like the Bible and Koran, these were written by many scribes over time, not by one writer. They may be the 'revelation' of one man but that simply doesn't count - it's who writes it that counts. If you took that line then Coronation Street or Eastenders could be counted as mythologies - they certainly have a following in the UK that's several hundred percent higher than either religious text *shudders at the thought of people worshipping at a graven image of Pat Butcher* Quote:
However, how do we know what was a 'pen slip' and what was correct? Would that not be down to personal opinion? We agree with what supports our argument, no?
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06-15-2007, 12:36 PM | #226 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Again, you're not going Bartheist on us, are you? Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 06-15-2007 at 12:40 PM. |
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06-15-2007, 12:39 PM | #227 | |
A Mere Boggart
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And I've committed two 'sins' at once there...
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06-15-2007, 12:46 PM | #228 | ||
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 06-15-2007 at 12:55 PM. |
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06-15-2007, 12:58 PM | #229 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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What exceptional synchronicity! Just as I hit the quote button to reply to drigel's post about this thread jumping the shark, his post disappears! I was going to tell him that this thread just gets funnier and funnier.
Morthoron, thank you for those illuminating quotations from Dr. Johnson and that Southern Yankee who wrote about fetishes with dead bodies. We can probably find any number of authors who hold any number of positions regarding reimbursements and motivations, none which in any way discounts how other writers feel. However, I do think it is well to remember that in days long past when the darkness had not crept widely over the earth, giants reigned. They were giants because their vision and strength and honour outstripped those of other men. And as they walked the earth, other men trembled at their approach, so stern was their bearing and so noble their deportment and so pure their vision. These giants, if they were warriors, fled no battle, avoided no enemy, and feared no foe. They desired but to die nobly and with honour. A paltry remant of their code of honour survives to this day in the pitiable expression, "It is a good day to die." Yet not all these giants were warriors; some were of the noble calling yclept scop and bard and to them fell the honour and the duty to record the valorious actions of the noble warriors. In the mead hall and at the parting of the waves it was their words, pure and clean of the dross, which gave voice and vision to the warriors' laments and sacrifices. For this, the cup was raised in their honour, and many were the nights that the bards led the warriors in their cups. It was their just reward, before the evil days of publishers and agents darkened noble writ. But on to the response of my response to davem's plea for a name, a one name like a One Ring to rule them all. We seem to have such short memories here that I will remind anyone still reading this of his plea: Quote:
So, I named a person from this forum who has garnered accolade after accolade for the quality of his fanfiction, the mighty Mithadan, whose Tol Eressëa stories were held to be the highest and finest attempt to capture the elusive elements of Tolkien's writing. (I won't say anything about his REB fanfic, because he was positively scandalous there.) And was this writer's work considered at all? Nay, suddenly cold feet seemed to sweep through the dusty, dark Barrows and in reply to my nomination, suddenly the criteria shifted, like tectonic plates grinding up against each other, but without the earth really moving. Quote:
Raynor, I had time to skim only one of your links. You aren't by any chance a fan of Georgette Heyer, are you? The bogey of style and the bully of Estate authorisation are irrelevant. There's a clue, though, in the reception of Tolkien's work. Where once he was pooh-poohed and then cultishly embraced and then fan-adulated, he now is coming into greater and greater repute. Time does that, if you're good. Let the base imitators mimic and the imaginative writers take inspiration and somewhere down the line, as Child has suggested, the stories that matter will take hold on the consciousness of the reading and story-telling public. After all, Milton does not sound like the Bible, and Blake does not sound like Milton. But the cauldron bubbled. There, like the proverbial cat, I think I've caught my tale again.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bęthberry; 06-15-2007 at 01:21 PM. Reason: added a few capitals wot always look nice |
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06-15-2007, 01:29 PM | #230 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I'm not quite sure in which direction you're tacking now.
After an extensive defense of the Author against PoMo drivel, I don't think that you're now taking the position that an Author who plagiarises doesn't count- even the act of choosing what to steal is still an independent creative act. On the other hand, I'm not sure you're asserting that the Quaran has been 'garbled in transmission'- in fact its text from the oldest extant manuscripts down to the present are at least as consistent as the Vulgate and Septuagint. There's no doubt in my mind that Muhammed, like Smith and Hubbard after him, set out consciously to create (or forge) a new "Mythology" as the fundamental step in that ancient scam, "Profiting Through Propheting." |
06-15-2007, 01:41 PM | #231 | |
Eagle of the Star
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"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." Last edited by Raynor; 06-16-2007 at 03:11 AM. |
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06-15-2007, 01:45 PM | #232 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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'He glutted black ravens on the walls, but he was no Arthur.' I don't want to sound too negative - I was impressed, yet some things jarred ("Pengolodh snorted" ) |
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06-15-2007, 01:55 PM | #233 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I have never wanted to offend anyone here. My hackles have been raised enough to warrant my self imposed exile. I havent lightened up yet. Im a purist, I suppose. Quote:
You see, I believe Davem's point is just that: if there was something that good out there, we would all have already heard about it, read it, and petitioned the Estate for endorsement. Thing is (for folks like me), unless you follow, contribute or participate in fanfics, it's really not that interesting or compelling. And if we read the whole thing, it's because we want to be polite. Because in reality, after about the 2nd or 3rd paragraph, we have completely checked out. Why? The author isnt Tolkien. As is the nature of these things, the product is never as good as it was fun to write. go figure Last edited by drigel; 06-15-2007 at 02:28 PM. Reason: pimf - preview is my friend |
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06-15-2007, 05:17 PM | #234 |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
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Drigel,
Why do we have to be in this much of a hurry? People are too impatient. We’re not talking about something that starts and finishes in our lifetime. It’s a process that will sort itself out over hundreds, possibly thousands of years. Most of these retellings will be garbage, sinking to the bottom unread and unlamented. Maybe three percent will be worth a read. No one can be sure if any of those will be worth remembering. But, over 500 years, my bet is that someone will come up with something that actually touches some hearts and minds. “Successor?” Ugh! Tolkien has no “successor” because he is unique. If crowning a “successor” is our only choice, I defer to Davem and throw the whole thing in the trash.. Again, I don’t think it’s that simple. Sagas and myths are normally told and retold from different perspectives over a very long time. Thomas Mallory, Alfred Lord Tennyson, T.H. White, Charles Williams, Vera Chapman, Kevin Crossley-Holland, Marian Zimmer Bradley and a host of others drew on the same body of Arthurian stories, each expressing them in a different way. I believe the same will eventually happen with the Legendarium. Davem is wise in saying that the Legendarium is closer to saga than fantasy. I also agree with Bethberry on Mithadan. His writing at least points in the right direction. Mithadan’s stories feel like history written at some point in the past. Since Tolkien stands at the end of the tradition of Saga, Davem suggests it would be impossible for latecomers to latch onto the tradition, and continue it on. I’m not so sure. Many readers fell in love with the ancient sources after reading LotR and ended up going back and devoting their lives to studying medieval languages or history or literature. I would guess about a third of medievalists teaching in colleges and unis today in this country owe some debt to Tolkien. As readers of LotR, these individuals were able to see beyond the veneer of "fantasy" and reconnect with that older heritage. If that recognition exists,it may be possible to continue with the tradition in written form. Not an exact replica, which would be impossible, but something that captures the spirit of the thing. I have never read any of Verlyn Flieger’s imaginative fiction. Just curious what tone is used in those. All this assumes that people still care about Middle-earth 500 years from today. If they still care, they will retell and expand. The alternative is to think of the Legendarium as a series of very specific novels and poems, with no possibility of expansion. Ironically, the one person who has done more than anyone to ensure that people think of the Legendarium as an expanding world rather than a series of discrete works with strict borders is Christopher Tolkien. Without Silm, without HoMe, without UT and Children of Hurin, Tolkien would look much more like a "conventional" author, and people would respond accordingly. There would be far fewer people who get the bug to retell the tale and to explore the hidden recesses of Middle-earth. By showing us more of what was in his father's mind, Christopher has actually helped writers break through to a wider Middle-earth. He has given us a tiny glimpse of the hidden vistas and distant mountains that Tolkien loved to put in his stories. If there are retellers of the future, it will because of Christopher’s very hard work, and I am extremely grateful for that.
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 06-15-2007 at 05:23 PM. |
06-15-2007, 10:12 PM | #235 | |||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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So the point I am making is, when one is speaking of a successor to Tolkien, would the inference be that such a personage be chosen to ape Tolkien's style? I would suggest that such a treatment, even if it could be done plausibly and with much attention to detail, would render the work to be utter mimicry. Like the much repeated elements of the Arthurian Cycle, an author should be allowed the latitude to impress his/her own style on the tale rendered, lest it become a mere charade. Quote:
It is not much different than the genesis of the Arthurian cycle, is it not? There is the initial germ of truth, and it passed through many hands in Anglo-Saxon England, made its way over the Channel to be enhanced among the troubadours, found its way to the trouvere Chretien de Troyes, then was diffused throughout Christendom (Germany, particularly), and finally passed back over the Channel to be reinvigorated by Malory. Quote:
Having finished reading E.B. White’s Charlotte’s Web with my six-year old daughter (complete with the accompanying tears when the loquacious grey spider sadly dies), we then decided to embark on a journey of a lighter vein by reading The Hobbit. I must say that a book I have long used just for reference material and for scholarly debate (whether or not you consider the book strictly canonical), has, through the eyes of a precocious and imaginative first grader, renewed my sense of wonder. It has brought back fond memories of the first time I sat enthralled in this sublimely simple tale, and likewise has so enchanted my daughter that she believes the events in the book actually happened once on a time. I asked her if Hobbits were real, and she merely looked at me in that Oh-dad-is-so-daft manner and replied, “Of course Hobbits are real, silly, because I can fly!” Since the story had such an effect on her, it is likely she will continue to immerse herself in Middle-earth as she grows older, and might possibly read Tolkien's tales to her children and they to there's and so on. Eventually all original copyrights fail, and a story that spans generations, like The Hobbit or LOTR, will pass into the public domain. Who can say what will happen then?
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06-16-2007, 12:27 AM | #236 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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Just before I get off on me hols I just wanted to add something:
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Anyway, I have to rush. Try & manage without me |
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06-16-2007, 02:59 AM | #237 | |
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06-16-2007, 08:14 AM | #238 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Certainly, there are morals and general cosmological and chronological principles that would be sacrosanct; Middle-earth is, after all, an ethical universe. But there are other voices in Middle-earth, not merely the Hobbits who compiled the Redbook of Westmarch. For instance, would the tone and manner of a Middle-earth piece be different if it were offered by, say, an Easterling bard who heard of the great defeat of his countrymen during the War of the Ring, but from second-hand accounts of returning warriors? Assuredly, the tone would be solemn, but would it necessarily mirror the cadences and dialects occuring in Tolkien's presentation of Western Middle-earth civilization?
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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06-16-2007, 08:21 AM | #239 | |||||||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Now you may go back to endlessly debating literary pseudo-questions. Last edited by Aiwendil; 06-16-2007 at 08:25 AM. |
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06-16-2007, 10:39 AM | #240 | |
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Drigel,
I've made just 5 posts here out of 240, and it seems I'm already in hot water! I am sorry if the wording of my posts upset you but we hold different opinions on the long term fate of the Legendarium. As I said before, absolutely no one knows what is going to happen 100 or 500 years from now. You may be the one who is closer to the mark than I am. My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that there will be people trying to retell this story. Tolkien's Legendarium, his total body of writings, is so different from most contemporary novels (even the very best of the best) that I believe its future course will also be different. "Software engineers" for Tolkien? Five hundred years ago, printed books were just getting their start. Another five hundred years in the future and there will likely be no software engineers. Very few people in the year 1500 could have predicted the computer and the internet, and I think we also can not predict the shape of things over such a long span of time. I am not the only one who feels this way. I recently attended a session which involved grad and undergrad students and one scholar from a nearby univerisity who had publshed several books investigating the medieval sources and connections of the Legendarium. There was a great deal of discussion on the earlier tradition of Arthurian literature, and whether Middle-earth could eventually evolve down a similar path, given modern modes of dissemination of stories. Like the present forum, the participants couldn't totally agree but there was a serious and respectful hearing given to the views on both sides. Regarding the nature of this site, there is no fanfiction here. There is a separate older BD site which was used for fanfiction. It lies virtually dormant. Less than five pieces have been added there in the past year. There are RPGs on the main site. The RPG sections used to be quite active but for a variety of reasons (Werewolf games, mods who've pulled back a bit, fewer new posters) it is quieter of late. A few stories plod quietly forward. If you count up recent posts, most of the activity lies in Books (and Mirth). This is a Books site in origin and at its heart. I do not see that changing, nor do I want it to change. Quote:
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 06-16-2007 at 11:07 AM. |
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