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04-05-2006, 07:13 AM | #161 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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04-05-2006, 07:38 AM | #162 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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As I said originally - we have to look at what is 'unsaid' in any particular statement, not just at what is said. |
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04-05-2006, 11:00 AM | #163 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Unless you're positing that there was another Elda besides these three who might be considered "greatest." In which case I'd like to see your references. |
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04-05-2006, 12:00 PM | #164 | |
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04-05-2006, 12:32 PM | #165 | |
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04-05-2006, 02:24 PM | #166 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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04-05-2006, 02:54 PM | #167 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
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I accept that Tolkien is better qualified to judge than any of us, but he changed his opinion too much for his words to be taken as the final 'fact'. The Translator Conceit is central to this discussion. Tolkien too is a 'Translator' after all. By placing himself in that role (as I've argued before) he becomes a character in his own creation. So effectively we have two Tolkien's - the primary world Oxford professor who invented the legends of Middle-earth, & the secondary world 'translator' of the Red Book. Which one wrote the essay? |
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04-05-2006, 03:03 PM | #168 |
Dead Serious
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To go back to Tolkien's Fëanor statement, which the Phantom so eagerly supplies, one can see that Tolkien is NOT saying that Fëanor was the greatest craftsman (and so greater than Lúthien) but that he was the greatest all around- and then lists several fields as examples.
Since Tolkien elsewhere makes a similar (although without examples) statement about Lúthien being the greatest- and since he also makes a statment lumping the two of them together with Galadriel as the greatest, it is clear that they are both great, that one of them is the greatest- and that Tolkien's word, alone and by itself, cannot be taken as the final authority. One must therefore, to determine which is the greater, take a look at the achievements and accomplishments- and failures- of the respective Elves to decide who is the greater.
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04-05-2006, 03:44 PM | #169 |
Illustrious Ulair
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To argue against myself (which I have the greatest joy in doing) the statement re Feanor says he was made the greatest of the Eldar, not that he was, at least in the end, actually the greatest. Melkor was originally made the greatest of the Valar, but he subsequently fell from that position through his own actions. The same could be said of Feanor.
Of course, that doesn't clear things up, as Luthien (as I stated earlier) is not technically one of the Eldar (though the Eldar claim her as one of their own). She was half Eldar - half Ainur. Of course she would be 'greater' in terms of sheer power than Feanor, simply due to being half divine. Hence, Tolkien is technically wrong to class her as greatest among the Eldar. Its equally true to say that Shadowfax is greater among equines than Bill, but we're not comparing like with like, so the comparison is ultimately false. Remove Luthien's divine aspect, (ie put aside those things she could only do due to that divinity) inherited from Melian, compare her to the 'unfallen' Feanor, at the height of his power & who is superior then? This is my point about taking into account what isn't said as well as what is said & not taking statements (even ones by Tolkien) at face value. |
04-05-2006, 05:49 PM | #170 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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What came first the chicken or the egg?
As we can see with the HoME, Tolkien was a niggler. He changed things all the time, can anyone put their hand on their heart and say that Tolkien would have been happy with every sentence of The Silmarillion as published, why do you think he never finished it.
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04-05-2006, 07:12 PM | #171 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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When one of you finds the true source of the quote provided from the '77 Silmarillion within HoMe (where we can be assured of its authenticity) and compares the date of that material with the date on The Shibboleth of Feanor, I'd be willing to bet the latter is the later.
Luthien was an Elda by nature. There is no two ways about it, since, having been born an Incarnate, her nature could not have been Maia. She was infused with the blood of an incarnate Maia, yes, but that does not change that she was an Elda. If you want to disqualify her because of her advantage, that's one thing. But to say she's not even an elf is retarded. As for "fallen" and "unfallen" Feanor, there's no indication that he was any less powerful in his end than he was in his beginning. Elves did not diminish through physical exertion as clothed/incarnate ealar did. The quote supplied by the phantom about Feanor's might was from within the narrative and at a time when Luthien did not yet exist. It therefore does not conflict with Tolkien's later (presumably) note wherein he, as the creator of the mythos, unequivocally states the top three greatest Eldar, side-by-side, and which of the three is the greatest of all. Tolkien is not coyly toying with his reader since this piece was evidently not part of anything he ever expected to be published. Yes, sometimes he messes around and throws things out there only to jerk them back (Gandalf = Manwe?), but in this case his statement bears finality and is never contradicted. I'm done. |
04-05-2006, 07:58 PM | #172 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Tolkien was wrong, his dad will tell you.
I'd be willing to bet that not everything Tolkien ever wrote has been commited to the published page, things will be released in the future that will either enlighten or confuse. The only books you can quote from are The Hobbit and LotR, the rest was work in progress. Anything in HoME that does not appear in LotR should be discounted, because Tolkien did not use it, and anything published after his death cannot be used 100% as evidence, we do not know if he would have used it or not, yes Tolkien wrote those words, but which version is correct 1940 or 1950. We are just going to have to admit that Tolkien wrote many versions of the same story, of which some are contradictory. Remember it was Christopher Tolkien who released The Silmarillion, if Tolkien was with us still, would he say: But Christopher old chap, you put in the wrong bits. Even in Letters you can see the stories changing with time, a letter written in the 40s, may well have been written differently in the 60s.
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04-05-2006, 08:17 PM | #173 |
A Northern Soul
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This list is based on the all of the works we have this far. I don't perceive anything else being published. It is useless to throw out quotes because he may have contradicted them in unpublished writings. This matter is not contradicted by anything else we have, so there's no question - it is the way things were in Middle-earth according to JRR, which is what we're looking for in this thread.
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04-05-2006, 08:30 PM | #174 |
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What would you think of opening the list up to votes?
My thought is to pick one of the more debated personages, and request nominations, with backing evidence, to be laid out. After the nominations have been collected (and seconded?), I can start a temporary poll thread on that particular personage, and after perhaps a week or two, close the poll and modify the list accordingly. Or would we prefer just to discuss things and have me make my best fallible conclusions? |
04-05-2006, 09:00 PM | #175 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Sorry to sound snippy above, davem. I've just said all I think can be said on the matter. |
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04-05-2006, 09:53 PM | #176 | ||
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04-05-2006, 10:00 PM | #177 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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04-05-2006, 11:05 PM | #178 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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The quote definitely includes her. But I don't think the quote necessarily conflicts with the "Luthien is the greatest" quote. As Thalion has brought up more than once, what does "greatest" mean? What did Tolkien have in mind? It is very possible that there are some components such as popularity and renown wrapped up in "greatest". For instance, it could be said that Star Wars is the greatest movie of the 20th century. Star Wars was absolutely huge! It sold gobs of tickets, mountains of merchandise, and featured cutting edge details and special effects (when it came out). It resulted in five more blockbuster movies, books, comics, fan clubs, toy collections, conventions, and fan websites. No one would argue if someone wrote in a book that Star Wars was the greatest movie force of the century. However, that does not mean Star Wars, when compared to the other movies in the century, had the best writing, directing, acting, sound, visuals, sets, or anything else. In other words, it doesn't mean that Star Wars was the "best" film. Do you see what I'm saying? Tolkien saying Luthien was the "greatest" does not mean that she was more "powerful" or "talented" than Feanor any more than it means that she would beat Feanor in a game of billiards. Tolkien didn't say that. He only said she was the "greatest". Feanor, on the other hand, got some extremely specific praise. Quote:
All of this next part is a rambling opinion of a sleepy biased phantom, so feel free to ignore it- I have always gotten the feeling that Feanor was the most powerful/talented/whatever in Tolkien's world, but that Tolkien simply didn't like him as much as Luthien and Galadriel, and so did what he could to put them on level with Feanor. As we know, Luthien was Tolkien's wife, so he obviously favored her, and we've also discussed on this forum Tolkien's increasing Galadriel worship as he aged. This certainly influenced his writings. From deeds and such it seems clear to me that Feanor was superior, and I think Tolkien knew it. When he wrote the quote I supplied, I think it was a moment when he was reluctantly admitting Feanor's unfathomable power- I don't recall seeing any quote of that magnitude about the others, probably because Tolkien, despite his love for them, couldn't bring himself to write things that were distorted beyond the normal amount of author bias. When you consider Tolkien's feelings towards Luthien and Galadriel, I think it is not just likely, but a guarantee, that he favored them more than he should have in some of his writing. Anyone who has ever written stories or RPGed much can certainly understand this point. If a character within your story sort of represents you or a dear friend, you tend to give them more credit than they really should have.
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04-06-2006, 02:35 AM | #179 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
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I didn't say she wasn't 'even an Elf', I said she was far more than an Elf, & so Feanor cannot be fairly compared with her. Quote:
Assuming we're dealing with the figure of 'Tolkien the Translator' being the source of this particular essay we can only say that having read all the available texts (principally the Red Book) he would have formed his own personal & possibly biassed opinion, & opinion cannot be treated as 'fact'. Quote:
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04-06-2006, 03:30 AM | #180 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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What a Carry On
I was not saying that we should pack up and go home, we should carry on as normal, however I state again, quoting from anything not published during Tolkiens lifetime cannot be done with absolute certainty. A lot of arguments go back and forth until they descend into bickering, and then things get a bit heated. I just wanted to say that quoting from HoME can be very dangerous, some people may think that its the truth, in the same way the films have muddied the waters. As I said before, try to keep in mind when quoting anything:
1. Was this Tolkiens final word on the matter, ie: was it published whilst alive. 2. Are there any other versions that may contradict the matter. 3. Are there any other statements that may contradict the matter. The reason I put number three in is because I would ask you, Who is the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar? Tolkien states on one hand that Feanor is, then he says that Luthien is. Then there are other statements: 1. For Feanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind, in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and in subtlety alike, of all the Children of Iluvatar. 2. Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and wise of heart. 3. Galadriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finwe.. How many contradictions are there in that lot. Carry On Quoting.
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04-06-2006, 05:10 AM | #181 | |
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04-06-2006, 06:11 AM | #182 |
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I can see the Four Horsemen of Canonicity approaching over the horizon...
I think what this illustrates is just how difficult it is to make any kind of objective judgement on 'power' or 'strength'. Putting aside what we would define as powerful ourselves, from what we interpret to be 'powerful' in Arda, we sometimes have no clear primary source to draw on. Tolkien's books are layered and complex, way beyond the complexity of just having lots of characters and places and storylines; they are complex because he has given an illusion of reality through having the translator conceit and rewriting versions of his work. Maybe the arguing is all part of what he hoped might happen? Have we thought of that?
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04-06-2006, 10:28 AM | #183 |
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The translator conceit is one that Tolkien put into the work in order to create a feigned reality. That he succeeded is proved by how similar our discussing behavior is to that of theologians and historians. At the risk of seeming heresy, as the theologians who discuss the Christian Bible acknowledge one Author, so must we. Thus the translator conceit is a level of complexity, in fact a kind of game, that doesn't necessarily obtain for the purposes of this thread.
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04-06-2006, 10:56 AM | #184 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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And I'd say that the TC cannot be left out of any analysis of the Legendarium. Its far more than merely a 'kind of game' - unless you conside sub creation as a whole a kind of 'game'. |
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04-06-2006, 11:28 AM | #185 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
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As regards the Feanor debate, I would repeat a question that I posed (and comment that I made) earlier: Quote:
I am not talking here in terms of his morality and the negative consequences of this for others. Although a number of his deeds were of dubious morality, that in itself is not a reason to move him down the "power list", as it does not seem that we are holding the moral failings of Morgoth and Sauron against them. What I am considering is how his failings negatively impacted upon himself and his family. His Oath blighted his life and the lives of his sons. His rash pursuit of Morgoth led to his premature demise. These were consequences of his very nature, not simply the manifestations of his power. So can it not be said that, taken as a whole, his "power level" is diminished by his impetuous and hot-headed nature? There are others, Luthien and Galadriel included, who, while lacking in his raw power, chose their courses of action more carefully, and in a more measured way. In many ways, perhaps, they were wiser. Should this not be considered as an aspect of "power"?
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04-06-2006, 12:17 PM | #186 | |
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04-06-2006, 12:27 PM | #187 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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04-06-2006, 12:29 PM | #188 |
Dead Serious
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Another point regarding the "rash" business....
LMP started this thread with a "who could whup whom?" sort of idea in mind. And while he's since taken more into account than mere physical strength/power, one should probably still keep in mind that "greatest" as being measured on this list, is ultimately "who could whup whom". Fëanor, in my opinion, could probably "whup" either Lúthien or Galadriel- either physically, or in terms of persuasiveness and force of will. Or, at least, he'd probably be the best at it of the three. I don't think that he could actually persuade or dominate either Lúthien or Galadriel- but neither could either of them do the same to him.
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04-06-2006, 12:51 PM | #189 | |
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...as much as Tolkien wanted a mythology that incorporated elements of many of the tales we have today in various cultures, we must remember that his works didn't actually form the trunk from which all these various branches with similar elements came from...therefore, the work of this one man is what we are to consider...
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04-06-2006, 01:01 PM | #190 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A Thing Called Love
Everything cannot be won by brute strength and willpower alone, how powerful is beauty and love. This may go off track a bit, but listen to Johnny Cash sing A Thing Called Love, I know it is only a song but the sentiment is there. Who decrees with what and how someone can 'whup' another, Luthien may have had Feanor eating out of her hand, if the sight of her could enflame lust in one of the most powerful beings in Arda, then I am afraid Feanor could have been vunerable to. We know that Feanor suffered from Greed, Jealousy and Pride, surely this is proof of some weakness of his mind.
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04-06-2006, 01:15 PM | #191 | ||
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prose (original) / history (TC) narrative (TC) translation (from elvish to "westron" - Bilbo/Frodo) and again translated from "westron" to early english (Aelfwine). Or, any other combination. Granted, the effect may work only for me, and I tip my hat to the author. My point wasnt particularly TC, but the "commissioned artist's Conciet" of the subject. Quote:
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04-06-2006, 02:10 PM | #192 | |||
Beloved Shadow
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lmp, since this is your thread why don't you tell me, would a good description of what you are looking for be sheer amount of knowledge, strength of will, number of skills, strength of skills, ability to impact mind and matter, and ability in battle? Not to mention, SPM, that Luthien was rash as well. She disobeyed her father and left the safety of Doriath to chase Beren, and almost paid dearly for her actions (Celegorm and Curufin). Everyone acts unwisely under extreme circumstances, and Feanor's were arguably the worst any elf ever faced. He loved his father more than any son loved his father, he created the greatest work of skill ever- the Silmarils, and both his father and the Silmarils were stolen from him in a single day. That, coupled with Morgoth's efforts to corrupt him, was more than an elf could handle. After all, the Valar themselves told the Noldor as they left that they did not have the power to contest with Morgoth. If true, then surely there was no way Feanor could've remained unaffected by Morgoth's attempts to corrupt him, especially when you consider that marring Feanor was Morgoth's primary goal. Morgoth was the most powerful being ever created by Eru, and so I find it difficult to hold the unfortunate events that followed against Feanor as much as many of my fellow Downers do. In my opinion, Feanor's fall was inevitable the instant the Valar allowed Morgoth to roam free and Morgoth resolved to ruin Feanor. Quote:
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04-06-2006, 02:21 PM | #193 |
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Yes, normally the Elves were faithful, but it seems Fëanor was susceptible in that area - not to Lúthien, but to Galadriel. "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in UT relates his request for her hair as a keepsake (trophy?). Apparently it became his inspiration for the Silmarils.
Sorry if that was wandering too far, but there are some interesting thoughts about those characters in that chapter.
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04-06-2006, 02:25 PM | #194 |
Dead Serious
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Another thing to note about Fëanor and women in general is that he loved his wife Nerdanel dearly- at least in the beginning. As evidence one can relate a few pertinent passages from the Shibboleth, as well as the physical evidence of Seven Sons.
However, it is also said of Fëanor, that he took the advice of few- only his wife Nerdanel, and then but only for a little while. Fëanor was, from what evidence we have, initially in love with Nerdanel, but as time went on, this love soured. His only true, abiding passions were for his father, his sons, and his Silmarils. Esty makes a good point about Galadriel, but I would still be inclined to think that her hold over him, had she wanted one, would have been more of a temporary one, likely to dissipate over time.
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04-06-2006, 03:05 PM | #195 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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It is this illusion of verisimilitude which Tolkien strove to create in order to bring a sense of 'reality' to the stories of the Legendarium. A careful reading of LotR, for instance, will reveal that there are various 'styles' incorporated in that work (the passages referring to the Rohirrim for example are full of alliteration) this gives a sense that LotR is a 'compendium' (there's also a mention in the text of 'Findegil the King's scribe' who is one in a series of 'compilers/redactors' in a long sequence of transmission). Moving on to the Notion Club Papers we see Tolkien trying a different method of transmission - psychic(memory) & physical (reincarnation). The cetral importance of this aspect for Tolkien can be seen in the very fact that he introduces himself into the Legendarium as 'translator'. He 'appears' in the story both in the Prologue & in Appendix F. This both makes him part of the secondary world he has created &, paradoxically, separates him from it in that he becomes not the maker of the stories but merely the last one who passes them on. So they become not Tolkien's mythology, but England's. He's effectively saying 'This is not my my mythology, its ours. So, as Flieger has so effectively shown, there have to be 'discrepancies', 'contradictions' in the text. These don't make the Legendarium less 'believable' as Myth, but actually more so, because they make it just like the genuine myth/legend cycles we have. In short, the contradictions are inevitable, necessary & most importantly deliberate. Think of all the named writers, loremasters & bards within the Legendarium. These are individuals, producing their own works, which are collated & passed on by others. |
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04-06-2006, 06:16 PM | #196 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
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Although the list may have started out as "who could whup whom", lmp when pressed accepted that we are looking here at qualities other than "raw power", in terms of physical strength. And, if that is the case, I do not see why an innate mental weakness such as Feanor's rash nature should not be taken into account in the same way that we would take an innate physical weakness into account. It depends, I suppose, on exactly what we mean by "power". But, if we are looking at a character in the round and considering spiritual and mental, as well as physical, strength, then surely Feanor's mental weakness, his rash and hot-headed nature, must be taken into account. It hampered his ability best to achieve what he wanted to achieve and was therefore something that weakened his overall "power" in the broadest sense. The fact that Morgoth "targetted" him is a fair point, but there must have been some mental weakness there for him to have fallen for it in such a big way. Indeed, that was no doubt one of the main reasons why Morgoth identified him as a means to further his plans. Morgoth was, in effect, playing to Feanor's weaknesses. And while it is true that a similar failings may be seen in a number of other characters, particularly other Noldor, in no one was it as pronounced, or indeed as influential, as in Feanor. And to the extent that other characters show similar mental weaknesses, then these should be taken into consideration when assessing, in broad terms, their "power". Turin is, I think, a good example here. And one final point. Even if we are just looking at "who could whup whom", Feanor's mental wekaness still plays a role. It is something that a clever foe, perhaps one such as Galadriel, would have been able to use against him.
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04-06-2006, 07:08 PM | #197 |
Beloved Shadow
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Where are you getting this that Feanor is mentally weak, Sauce? That's one of those things that always gets thrown around about him because it sounds good. But in reality, from what I've read, he was rather strong mentally.
Are you saying he was weak because he was influenced by Melkor? That's hardly good reasoning. That's like saying the strongest man in the world is physically weak because he can't lift a mountain. The two trees were the most amazing of the Valar's works, so Melkor resolved to destroy them. The Silmarils were the most amazing of the Elves' works, so Melkor resolved to steal them. Feanor was the most amazing Elf, so Melkor resolved to mar him. It's as simple as that. Only the Valar could have prevented Melkor from achieving his goals. Only they had the power. But instead of hindering Melkor, they helped him by giving Feanor a punishment (temporary banishment from Tuna) that, as Tolkien said, made the lies of Melkor appear to be true. Given the fact that the only beings powerful enough to undo Melkor's lies instead increased them, is it any wonder Feanor remained stained by Melkor, and that his father's death at Melkor's hands and the theft of his treasure pushed him over the edge? The circumstances of Feanor's fall were extreme. His fall was the result of a precise series of awful events orchestrated (in Melkor's case) or at least not stopped (in the Valar's case) by beings with greater power than his own. And the fact is, Feanor's fall had to happen in such a way, because he was not weak willed or weak minded. Only events exactly as they happened could have broken him.
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04-06-2006, 07:43 PM | #198 | |
Itinerant Songster
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: The Edge of Faerie
Posts: 7,066
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04-07-2006, 02:06 AM | #199 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Overall The Sil has an anti-Feanorian bias (being, one could speculate, due to the fact that Bilbo, the principal compiler of the Red Book, used sources of information, both living & written, that he found in Rivendell). So, the Feanoreans look bad in the Legends. Take Celegorm & Curufin's attack on Beren & Luthien - who wrote that is important because the writer attributes various motives to C&C which may or may not have been true. Or take Feanor. Was Feanor's story written as 'journalism' or as 'tragedy'? If SpM is correct that a characters moral/psychological strengths & weaknesses play a part in how we judge their innate 'power' (& thus where they belong in the hierarchy) then we have to ask 'Who's writing the report? Are they dependable - have they recieved full psychoanalytical training? Or we're they producing a work of moral didacticism, which may have little relation to actual events?' One final point - if the Elves (as stated in Ainulindale) are bound by the Music as by Fate, then can we consider any of their actions to be 'courageous'? Wouldn't they only be able to follow the 'program'? Also, wouldn't it take greater courage for Men (who have no idea of their post-mortem state - or indeed whether they have any) to lay down their lives than for Elves (who know exactly what will happen to them) to do so?
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 04-07-2006 at 03:39 AM. |
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04-07-2006, 10:23 AM | #200 | |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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But you concerted defence of him does illustrate another problem inherent in trying to come up with this kind of a list. It will always, as far as certain characters are concerned, be highly objective. Lmp recognises this and so retains for himself the final word. But there will always be disagreement over the placing of favourite characters. One further point that has been bothering me. Why are Radagast and the Blue Wizards so low? They were Maiar, albeit subject to the restrictions imposed upon the Istari. As such, they should be an a par (if slightly lower, perhaps) than Saruman the White and Gandalf the Grey. They may not have used their power to great effect in the overall scheme of things, but they would undoubtedly have had a similar "level" of power. And are Aiwendil, Alatar and Pallando on the list? I don't recall them being there. If they are not, they should be placed similarly, relative to Olorin and Curumo.
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