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04-01-2006, 08:38 PM | #121 |
Haunting Spirit
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What places Carcharoth much higher than Huan...they slew each other...? And since the prophesy is being taken into account about Huan's death and his placement in relation to Sauron, since when does Carcharoth deserve a placing significantly higher than Huan?
Additionally, in reading simply the last lines of Feanor, Fingolfin, Fingon, and Finrod, we are given the following statements in the Sil: Feanor: "Then he died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness had never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos. Thus ended the MIGHTIEST OF THE NOLDOR (emphasis added), of whose deeds came both their greatest renown and their most grievous woe." Fingolfin: "He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Orome himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar"...Morgoth comes to the challenge but "and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for thorugh his might was greatest of all things in the world, alone of the Valar he knew fear"....hense we can deduce that Morgoth feared either death, defeat, or Fingolfin himself......Fingolfin wounds Morgoth "with seven wounds, and seven times Morgoth gave a cry of anguish, whereat the hosts of Angband fell upon their faces in dismay..." so Fingolfin is making a mockery of Morgoth so badly that his forces are crying on the ground......finally he falls to the ground, but "Thirse he was crushed to his knees, and thrice aroce again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm"...until finally he falls in the pit and with his last "desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil........Thus died Fingolfin...most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old". Fingon: "AT last Fingon stodd aone with his guard dead about him; and he fought with Gothmog, until another Balrod came behind and cast a thong of fire about him. Then Gothmog hewed him with his black axe, and a white flame sprang up from the helm of Fingon as it was cloven. Thus fell the high king of the Noldor..." Finrod: "Thus King Finnrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwe..." after he dies at the hands of a werewolf... My points from these texts are the following: Feanor and Fingolfin most definetly deserve placing above the other two...in what order it is hard to say...Fingolfin wounded Morgoth multiple times...no small feat, yet Feanor is named specifically Mightiest of the Noldor...yet Fingolfin caused Morgoth to feel fear, so this one is a toss up in my mind... Finrod comes next...although he strove with Sauron for a long time, he eventually LOST and was eventually killed by none other than a "simple" werewolf...although he possssed powers to decieve Sauron (continue his and Beren's disguises) in his powers of song, that doesn't to me seem to imply great powers as this list seems to be conveying...additionally, since he doesn't die with a title like that of Feanor or Fingolfin, I believe he deserves to be placed lower than them on the list Fingon ranks the lowest of these...he strives with Gothmog and presumably is doing fine until another Balrog gets in the picture and allows Gothmog to kill him...however, the white flame that leaps up from his helm seems somewhat pertinent as it characterizes somewhat of his character...none-the-less...I'd place him last of the 4
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04-01-2006, 09:11 PM | #122 | |
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04-01-2006, 09:21 PM | #123 |
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Of the two beasts it is said that they fought to the death, that Huan actually slays Carcharoth, but that he dies as a result of venom of Morgoth in his wounds...because he left Aman with the Noldor, he too would die, but not unitl he encountered the mighiest wolf that would ever walk the world...
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04-02-2006, 01:55 AM | #124 | |
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Okay, Finrod was killed by a single werewolf of no great stature whereas Fingon is on par with Gothmog and is brought down by a dirty tactic and Finrod is tougher? If anything, I'd rank Finrod as the lowest of them.
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04-02-2006, 04:13 AM | #125 | ||||
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04-02-2006, 11:46 AM | #126 |
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I'm going to stick with Fëanor as the greatest of the Noldor. Though Fingolfin is the most noble, it is the oath of Fëanor that takes power over Fëanor. This shows that the oath is greater than its speaker, not that Fëanor is less after speaking it than he was before. The oath was spoken invoking none other than Ilúvatar, so Eru's power is what overcomes Fëanor's native strengths, by Fëanor's own will, having spoken the oath. It is clear that Tolkien (I assume rather than C.T., though I may need correcting on this) takes this oath so seriously that he does not quote it verbatim, but narrates it. The point of this, in case anyone may miss it (at least it seems obvious to me), is that by narrating the oath rather than quoting it, Tolkien avoided calling it into being.
Your points regarding the four chief Noldoran Elves have been very well put, and I've placed them as seems best to me, though I don't consider the issue completely resolved. I've placed Uinen over Ossë because she has the power to restrain him. I've dropped Smaug below the eagles and hawks of Manwë because I don't see the evil spirit in him as being greater than the spirits who take shape as eagles and hawks, or as greater than Melian to Tilion. One question that needs resolving: Are the "spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles [that] flew ever to and from [Manwë's] halls" (Sil p. 40) different beings than Thorondor and the Eagles that play the role of rescuer in The Hobbit and LotR? Updated List |
04-02-2006, 11:51 AM | #127 |
Blithe Spirit
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Humph...so despite everything Tolkien says to the contrary, Galadriel gets 5th place? When boys get together....
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04-02-2006, 12:07 PM | #128 | |||||||
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Thorondor is sent from Manwë, and is 'mightiest of all birds that have ever been.' Quote:
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And the eagles of The Hobbit/The Lord of the Rings are Thorondor's descendents: Quote:
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04-02-2006, 12:17 PM | #129 |
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Of Galadriel it is said in the Sil (Of the Rings of Power...) "yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in VAlinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth."
Unless there is another reference that I'm missing, I don't think Galadriel is ever named above any of the males of the house of Finwe...
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04-02-2006, 12:38 PM | #130 |
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What's with the "Gothmog 2nd Nazgul, Khamul, 3rd Nazgul" stuff...
Khamul is named 2rd of the Nazgul behind the Witch King, and no other Nazgul are named... Gothmog refers to two entities in the legendarium... 1) The Lord of the Balrogs killed by Ecthelion of the Fountain 2) The Leutenient of Morgal who commanded the troops of Sauron after the Witch King is defeated by Eowyn and Merry ...of the second, which I believe is where you are getting the reference to him being a Nazgul it is never stated that he is one...and Since Khamul is specifically named 2nd in command (albeit only in Unfinished Tales)...Gothmog couldn't have been 2nd...PJ represented Gothmog as an half orc creature thing in RotK if you remember the movie, but other than that, we are given no reference to him...he could have been Nazgul, Orc, Man or other, but he is never described beyond this that I am aware of and therefore I don't believe he can be properly placed as a Nazgul...
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
04-02-2006, 12:54 PM | #131 | |
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04-02-2006, 01:04 PM | #132 |
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Much thanks, Legolas. In that case, Thorondor, Gwaihir and Landroval must be raised up the list.
I stand corrected in terms of the names of the Nazgúl. Is there any reference that anybody else knows of as to the nature of this second Gothmog? I fear that I was influenced by a certain Avalon Hill LotR game which named one of the Nazgúl "Gothmog". I thought that perhaps they based this decision on some authoritative documentation. My mistake. As to Galadriel, there is much written (and much of it contradictory) in Unfinished Tales; does anyone care to venture a conclusion from that rather difficult set of texts? I have mostly found the contradictions between them inscrutable of a useful conclusion. Updated List Last edited by littlemanpoet; 04-02-2006 at 01:10 PM. |
04-02-2006, 01:09 PM | #133 | |
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...A few games out there have named all 9 Nazgul, some even with plausible names that are feasible Numenorean in nature (given that it is said that some of the Nazgul were fallen kings of old)...however, Tolkien himself doesn't name them, and any placing of Gothmog as a Nazgul while possibly may not be INcorrect, it technically isn't accurate...
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
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04-02-2006, 01:10 PM | #134 |
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Mirror, mirror on a stand, tell me who it is that's grand
I think what Tolkien is saying, in reference to Galadriel, is after The Ban is lifted, she is the mightiest and fairest of The Noldor to remain in Middle-Earth. She refuses to go back to Valinor at that point. The moment Tolkien is referring to is of course during The Third Age and after the fall of Gil-Galad.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 04-02-2006 at 01:33 PM. |
04-02-2006, 01:26 PM | #135 | |
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.....an interesting side note I was thinking about, if one list the houses of the sons of Finwe in order of "might" or "relative powers", how would you rank them?...sticking to just Feanor, Fingolfin and Finarin, which house ranks highest and lowest? (by default that leaves someone in the middle)...slightly off topic I kno, but not necessary outside the realm of this thread...
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
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04-02-2006, 01:50 PM | #136 | |
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Instead of ignoring the superior gender, when they make posts, elempi, as boys are so often wont to do...(post #102, to be precise)....
Here's that quote again, this time in full...: Quote:
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling Last edited by Lalaith; 04-02-2006 at 01:55 PM. |
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04-02-2006, 01:55 PM | #137 |
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I think Beorn (and possibly his race) should be higher on the list...Dain, Balin, and Thorin Oakenshield were all at the Battle of the Five Armies, yet it wasn't until Beorn showed up that they really had a chance of winning ("But even with the Eagles they were still outnumbered. In that last hour Beorn himself had appeared......he seemed to have grown almost giant-size in his wrath"..."The roar of his voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straw and feathers. He fell upon their rear and broke like a clap of thunder thorugh the ring." He also kills Bolg himself ("crushed him") which finally caused the goblins to be dismayed and flee the battle)...
...No other person or being saved the battle from loss (or at least thats how I read it)...even though these other great dwarves were there...I would still account Gimli higher than Beorn because of his special context and the fact that he is allowed to go into the west with Legolas, but Beorn deserves to be placed above Dain, Balin and Thorin who were all at the Battle of the 5 Armies yet didn't turn the tide...
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
04-02-2006, 01:57 PM | #138 | |
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EDIT: NM, I found it in Unfinished Tales HOWEVER...in reading the passage (and this is going to sound picky)...I wonder what Tolkien means by the word greatest...to me it seems possibly to imply fame or had the most dealings with others...almost like he's saying "Galadriel had the most renoun of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he..."...not so much that she was the most commanding or had more power than others, just that because she stayed in Middle Earth so long and because she strove against the forces of evil so long, she invariably will appear to be "the greatest" or have lasted the longest or something along those lines...... ...A reading of the word "great" in the OED (for which Tolkien himself was a writer) leads one to be able to draw this conclusion, although it necessarily allows one to see the word "greatest" in a more common meaning of implying more power or statur...I back this by saying that the essay to which the lines come from are characterized by Christopher Tolkien as a "very late and primarily philological essay..."
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." Last edited by Thalion; 04-02-2006 at 02:23 PM. |
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04-02-2006, 02:17 PM | #139 | |
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Personally, I would rate Galadriel as either second or third of the Noldor. Although this passage equates her as an equal of Fëanor, I am inclined not to give it TOO much weight. As with LMP, I am inclined to discount quite a bit (although not so much as he) of what Tolkien wrote in his later years. In the case of Galadriel in particular, I find that Tolkien gets more and more fond of her over the years, making her more and more special. Now, whatever Tolkien may say about Galadriel's greatness, I think a look at the Silmarillion will show just who the greater Elf was: Fëanor. He wasn't as GOOD an Elf, I would agree, and he was a good deal more rash at times, but in terms of POWER, there is really no Elf that can compare with Fëanor. In terms of physical feats, he was amazingly skilled. The Silmarils, the Palatíri, and a host of unnamed objects beside, were all the products of his hands. He was also an accomplished warrior, fell and fey in battle. Then there is the strength of his mind: he was a brilliant oratorian, moving the majority of the Noldor to follow him into exile. His words to the Messenger of the Valar (some say it was Mandos) were such that even the Messenger was amazed. And then there is the "fire of his spirit" which burned his body as it departed, and which caused his mother to perish. Say what you will about Galadriel, her accomplishments are a good deal more muted. So I would place Fëanor at the top of the list of the Noldor. Galadriel, as I have already mentioned, would probably be second. I left the possibility of bumping her down to third, in light of Fingolfin's accomplishments, but I think that she rightly belongs above him.
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04-02-2006, 02:25 PM | #140 |
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I would agree, Form. If we measure power for example in terms of being "a great character", Feanor is greater than Galadriel.
Also, while she was superior, morally speaking, his creative spirit was greater. I always remember the first time I heard Feanor mentioned, when Gandalf talked about how he longed to see his hands at work, via the Palantiri. I thought at the time, if Gandalf has such admiration for him, well...
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04-02-2006, 02:28 PM | #141 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Good posts, Lalaith.
Greatest of the Eldar By the way, arguing with Tolkien himself will only make this thread more hopeless than it already is. Last edited by obloquy; 04-02-2006 at 09:17 PM. |
04-02-2006, 02:32 PM | #142 |
Blithe Spirit
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Obloquy, I've only read the first twenty posts or so of that thread you linked to but it is hilarious. Thank you.
Edit: I've read the whole thing now and it doesn't get any less funny...
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling Last edited by Lalaith; 04-02-2006 at 02:44 PM. |
04-02-2006, 02:48 PM | #143 | |
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04-02-2006, 05:32 PM | #144 |
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Beauty and The Beasts
I'd like to go back to the Luthien debate, and say a few things that may have been missed. Firstly the powers Luthien employed, these were:
1. Her Song/Singing/Voice 2. Her Beauty 3. Inherent Power 1a.The song of Luthien released the bonds of winter, and the frozen waters spoke, and flowers sprang from the cold earth where her feet passed. 1b. But Luthien heard his answering voice, and she sang then a song of greater power. The wolves howled, and the isle trembled. 1c. Then suddenly she eluded his sight, and out of the shadows began a song of such surpassing loveliness, and of such blinding power, that he listened perforce; and a blindness came upon him, as his eyes roamed to and fro, seeking her. All his court were cast down in slumber, and all the fires faded and were quenched; but the Silmarils in the crown on Morgoth's head blazed forth suddenly with a radiance of white flame;...................She cast her cloak before his eyes, and set upon him a dream, dark as the Outer Void where once he walked alone. 1d. The song of Luthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall hear ....... And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon the stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was moved, nor has been since. 2a. Then all memory of his pain departed from him, and he fell into an enchantment; for Luthien was the most beautiful of the Children of Iluvatar. 2b. Then Morgoth looking upon her beauty conceived in his thought an evil lust, and a design more dark than any that had come into his heart since he had fled Valinor. Thus he was beguiled by his own malice.... 3a. It is told in the Lay of Leithian how she escaped from the house in Hirilorn; she put forth her arts of enchantment, and caused her hair to grow to great length, and of it she wove a dark robe that wrapped her beauty like a shadow, and it was laden with a spell of sleep. 3b. Then Luthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare. 3c. But suddenly some power, descended from of old from divine race, possessed Luthien, and casting back her foul raiment she stood forth, small before the might of Carcharoth, but radiant and terrible. Lifting up her hand she commanded him to sleep, saying: 'O woe-begotten spirit, fall now into dark oblivion, and forget for a while the dreadful doom of life.' And Carcharoth was felled, as though lightning had smitten him. Well there we go, seems like a pretty good C.V to me, and what a mighty person, some powerful beings she got the better of there. What price for Beauty and a Song, did a bit more damage than the swords of The Noldor, including Ringil. One can say that Morgoths lust defeated him, but it must have something to feed off, and evil thought must have a reason. So whether you rate Luthien as an Elf or Hybrid Maia/Elf she deserves to be close to were her mother sits on the list.
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. Last edited by narfforc; 04-02-2006 at 05:42 PM. |
04-02-2006, 07:33 PM | #145 | |
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EDIT: But it occurs to me that Lúthien never made it to Valinor (except for the Halls of Mandos which don't exactly count), so cannot be considered as one "of Valinor". Therefore, I take the liberty of leaving her at a superior position to Galadriel. I recall now that my original reason for holding her as above even Fëanor, was that she was born of the union of Thingol, one of the three Eldest of the Eldar, and of Melian the Maiar. Being half-Maiar places her above any other Eldar, seems to me. EDIT: I've just read narfforc's excellent post, and am all the more convinced regarding Lúthien. Updated List Last edited by littlemanpoet; 04-02-2006 at 07:53 PM. |
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04-02-2006, 07:46 PM | #146 | |
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04-02-2006, 09:15 PM | #147 | |
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on to other matters... 1) I think Tilion should be next after Arien...although she is called "mightier than he", Tilion still is able to defeat the spirits of Morgoth sent to asail him "Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of Shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the path of the stars; but Tilion was victorious." Because not much else is said concerning them, I think they should rank 1/2 wherever they are placed... 2) Since Gandalf the Grey was felled by a "regular" Balrog, I think its only fair to put Gothmog above Gandolf the Grey...just a small point, maybe up for contention 3) Not sure why Gothmog the Leutenient of Morgul and the Mouth of Sauron are down so low...for some reason I just have to believe they would be higher up than hobbits...
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
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04-02-2006, 09:16 PM | #148 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Anyway, sorry about the previous post. I'll fix it. |
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04-02-2006, 09:22 PM | #149 | |
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04-02-2006, 09:29 PM | #150 | |
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
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04-02-2006, 10:07 PM | #151 | ||
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04-02-2006, 11:22 PM | #152 | |
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It was the Rules that defined Gandalf the Grey. Therefore, what Gandalf the Grey was capable of is dependent on the Rules. I therefore support the position that Gothmog, Chief of the Balrogs, should be placed ahead of Gandalf the Grey.
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04-03-2006, 12:24 AM | #153 | |||
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04-03-2006, 04:58 AM | #154 |
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Oh, I quite agree about Luthien. Mary Sue she may have been, but we have to take the Professor at his word.
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04-03-2006, 07:57 AM | #155 | |
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04-03-2006, 10:36 PM | #156 | |
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the phantom has posted.
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04-03-2006, 11:16 PM | #157 | |
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I skimmed the thread as best I could, and I didn't happen to spot one of my favorite quotes from the Silmarillion. So, here it is. And if it's already there and I just missed it, it can't hurt to read it again.
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04-04-2006, 10:55 PM | #158 | ||
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Well this will be the second time I attempt to post this as the first one timed out on me...grrr...
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...this is not the importance of this passage, per say...its importance is to lend crediblity that Feanor is the "mightiest" or "greatest" in certain catagories...this question is often posited in response to the passage concerning Luthien being the "greatest of the Eldar"...people ask "greatest in what"...and the correct answer is essentially..."not in anything in particular, just the greatest" since Tolkien doesn't qualify this statement...but he does quality the statements about Feanor...which lead us to believe possibly that Luthien is the greatest elf of all... ...but to do so would not necessarily be to take the entire quotion in the correct context...I repeat it here one more time for argument: Quote:
...additionally, a definition of "greatest" as "of most renown" or "most famous" is outside a proper reading of the passage above...the passage speaks of the history of elves and which elves concern their history most chiefly...this means that to call Luthien the "greatest" in this context could very well mean that she is in fact the elf to which tales telll the most about or to which legends most often speak about...legends may speak about Luthein more often than others for various reasons including that her tale with Beren is a bittersweet tale with a somewhat happy ending(?), that it is important for understading the history of the Elves (and later Numenoreans) or that is the most beautiful tale when sung in Quena or Sindarian and that they enjoy hearing it most just as some of us prefer to watch certain movies over and over (or read certain books...cough cough....Tolkien works....cough cough) because they are most entertaining...this doesn't mean that she had more power than other elves simply that the Lay of Luthien would be the "greatest tale" of the elves because it speaks of lmany emotions including love, despair, hope, ect... ...lastly, and least we not forget...Luthien is most chiefly written to be Tolkien's wife...so there is obviously some author's prejudice here...although I do not argue with what Tolkien wrote, I simply mean to say that understanding this may create a greater understanding why she may be accounted amongst the very highest echelon of elves...
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"But a new day is come. Here I will stay at peace, and renounce name and kin; and so I will put my shadow behind me, or at the least not lay it upon those that I love." |
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04-05-2006, 02:29 AM | #159 | ||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Tolkien states at different times that Frodo, Sam & Aragorn was the 'hero' of LotR. Clearly they can't all have been the hero - simply that at different times Tolkien considered one to be the hero, at other times he considered another to fulfil that role. But in terms of context a statement may be qualified by what isn't stated In Appendix F we find the 'clear' statement about Elves: Quote:
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Let's not forget that Tolkien often made 'poetic' statements about characters & events as well as strictly 'factual' ones. And once we introduce the 'Translator Conceit' we have to ask which 'writer' within the Legendarium wrote which statement. There are a number of 'contributors' to the Legendarium, from Pengolodh to Bilbo, & one could speculate that they may have had their own particular biases. I think this alone shows that we must be very careful about simply trying to trump each other with quotes....
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 04-05-2006 at 02:38 AM. |
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04-05-2006, 04:53 AM | #160 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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Davem makes a good point concerning the translator. At one point Feanor is 'Mightiest in beauty', then Luthien is considered the most beautiful of all the Children of Iluvatar. Feanor is 'Mightiest in valour, then Fingolfin is the most valiant. My problem is that Fingolfin was valiant in facing Morgoth in battle, how valiant was Luthien then?
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[B]THE LORD OF THE GRINS:THE ONE PARODY....A PARODY BETTER THAN THE RINGS OF POWER. |
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