Lord of the Rings, rated PGP

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Speaking in terms of sheer numbers killed, one would think it safe to say our predecessors were somewhat more civilized than their 20th century descendants.

Naw, they just didn't have the technology needed for an all-out blood fest, like we do. If Midieval Europe had nukes, the death tolls would be just as high, if not higher, as they are today!

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

Naw, they just didn't have the technology needed for an all-out blood fest, like we do. If Midieval Europe had nukes, the death tolls would be just as high, if not higher, as they are today!

Speaking in broad socioeconomic terms, I beg to differ.

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Speaking in broad socioeconomic terms, I beg to differ.

Perhaps. But Midieval Europe (which I'm assuming we're talking about, the period from 350 CE to 1450 CE) was quite a bloodthirsty place. Now, albiet, a lot of "civilized" institutions that we still enjoy today (such as universities, representative government, etc.) were invented during this time period. However, many changes (both social and economic) ensured a very violent way of life.

For example, this was the time period when Christianity was really starting to become popular. Although some Christians were tolerant of the older, polytheistic religions, most violently opposed them (witch hunts, the Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.). And even inside Christendom, different factions would disagree, sometimes violently, over specific doctrine (such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, etc.).

Not to mention the various rivalries going on. The French and British were almost constantly at war. Britain was trying to colonize and subdue as many people as possible (a trend which continued until recently). Various dynasties rose and fell, usually with blood being spilled on both sides. The Vikings raided and plundered whereever they went.

These examples (and the acutal damage done by them) doesn't hold a candle to modern-day conflicts, obviously. However, they certainly prove that people in Midieval Europe were just as bloody-minded as their modern-day counterparts.

[Elianna]

Can we please stick to Physics.

[Nukapei]

*grumble grumble* Fine!

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

Perhaps. But Midieval Europe (which I'm assuming we're talking about, the period from 350 CE to 1450 CE) was quite a bloodthirsty place. Now, albiet, a lot of "civilized" institutions that we still enjoy today (such as universities, representative government, etc.) were invented during this time period. However, many changes (both social and economic) ensured a very violent way of life.

For example, this was the time period when Christianity was really starting to become popular. Although some Christians were tolerant of the older, polytheistic religions, most violently opposed them (witch hunts, the Crusades, Inquisitions, etc.). And even inside Christendom, different factions would disagree, sometimes violently, over specific doctrine (such as the Trinity, immortality of the soul, etc.).

Oh my, here we go, "C.E." and all.

I'm afraid that the picture most people have of the Middle Ages is influenced to an alarming degree by the remnants of the haze of Protestant prejudice over the Catholic past and the warped images presented by Hollywood.

First of all, I wonder at the seeming negative impostion of words relating your impression of the "popularity" of Christianity. While it is true that some newly converted kings or chieftains forced the remainder of their subjects to convert to Christianity, this was never a policy of the Church and was dissaproved of. Witch hunts, contrary to what you seem to think, were not symptomatic of Christianity but of the Pagan superstition that the Church fought constantly to dispell.

As to the Crusades, do you really think that in attempting to reclaim Palestine from Islamic occupation, Christian Europe was attacking an "Older, polytheistic religion"?

And concerning the Inquisition, that most wrongfully reviled segment of Catholic history, it ever and only had jurisdiction over (of all people) Catholics. It was originally established as an arm of the Spanish government during the Reconquisita when many Muslims were seen to convert to Christianity and there was a well-grounded fear that some of these might be "sleeper agents". An easy and sure way of avoiding trial by the Inquisition was simply to declare oneself to not be a Christian.

As the (earlier) very real threat of invasion diminished and the problem of heresy grew, the Inquisition was redirected to inquire into the beliefs of Catholics.
Under the authority of the Spanish civil government but staffed and operated by the clergy, or, in many instances, university lawyers, the Inquisition tested the faith of Catholics accused of heresy. Far from the usual mob of ignoble churls eager to condem that one invariably sees, the real Inquisition courts were almost a mirror opposite. Prisoners were accorded rights and priviliges that were almost fantastic by the standards of the day. For example: A conviction required the agreemen of at least two witnesses. Our courts only require one. The accused would be allowed to compile a list of all persons he or she felt might commit calumny against them, and and whose testimony would then be automatically thrown out. If convicted, the accused had multiple levels of appeal open to them, and the benefit of court-appointed lawyers to represent them. The accused could even have the judge replaced if he/she felt that said magistrate was too strongly dispositioned against them.
Inquisition jails were luxurious compared to the prisons that civil prisoners were held in, and there are many cases of accused thieves commiting blasphemy in the lay courts in order to have their cases transferred to the more merciful Inquisitors, and when the Inquisition itself was finally abolished, there were riots all over Spain in favour of its return.

I'm sorry this is so short. I really haven't the time to do this subject justice.

[Gil-Galad]

Kingdom of Heaven

watch it... when it comes out

[Encaitare]

I'm with Elianna... the Inquisition has absolutely nothing to do with Middle-earth physics.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Neurion

I'm sorry this is so short. I really haven't the time to do this subject justice.

Not short enough as it's completely off-topic. I am sure that there will be those who wish to challenge your version of history. If anyone does, please take it to PM so that this thread can get back on topic in accordance with the thread-starter's request:

Originally Posted by Elianna

Can we please stick to Physics.

[Nukapei]

Sorry, Elianna, I'll be quiet in a minute.

Neurion, I just wanted to know where you got your sources. All the sources I've reviewed (including an article from Encarta Encyclopedia I looked up quickly to make sure my statements were correct) say the opposite. Especially about the Inquisition, which I have always read was big on torturing the "truth" out of its prisoners, then burning them at the stake. And as for avoiding them by decairing oneself non-Christian, I have always read that they went after "Secret Jews" first.

Again, I never said that the level of violence or deathtoll was greater than today. Just that the violent mentality was compariable to that of our day.

But, I'd like to know your sources! If, as you say, my view of history is "tainted" by Hollywood, I'd like to know!

Edit:

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

If anyone does, please take it to PM so that this thread can get back on topic.

Will do, SPM! No more Inquisition discussion, only physics!

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Off-topic posts can be deleted by the moderators and administrators without notice. Please stick to the topic as given in the title, and please stick to Middle-earth, LotR, and Tolkien-related topics on the Barrow-Downs forum! Thanks.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

Sorry, Elianna, I'll be quiet in a minute.

Neurion, I just wanted to know where you got your sources. All the sources I've reviewed (including an article from Encarta Encyclopedia I looked up quickly to make sure my statements were correct) say the opposite. Especially about the Inquisition, which I have always read was big on torturing the "truth" out of its prisoners, then burning them at the stake. And as for avoiding them by decairing oneself non-Christian, I have always read that they went after "Secret Jews" first.

PM'ed you.

[Neurion]

Back to physics, the Gondorian armor in the films functions like it's made of plastic. In the attack on Osgilliath, the sentry (the film's stunt coordinator in costume, BTW) is shot by an orc short recurve bow at a distance I guess to be around a 150 yards or greater. The arrow goes straight through the most heavily sloped part of his breastplate and knocks him off his feet.
This is patently ludicrous.

In tests made on a reproduction of a medieval plate steel breastplate in the Tower of London, carefully reconstructed with the aid of ultra-sound scanning to ensure as close as possible an aproximation, a reproduction medieval longbow was employed against it, with both broadhead and bodkin arrowheads shot from various ranges.

The broadheads put small notches in the plate, and the bodkins put shallow holes in it, but none of them really penetrated. A few of the bodkins went in far enough to maybe cause a flesh wound, but that's it.
Now here's the thing: they were shooting at a flat plate at 90 degrees. They then turned the plating to 45 degrees or so, a more realistic impact angle. Not a single arrow bit. They all deflected.

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Back to physics, the Gondorian armor in the films functions like it's made of plastic. In the attack on Osgilliath, the sentry (the film's stunt coordinator in costume, BTW) is shot by an orc short recurve bow at a distance I guess to be around a 150 yards or greater. The arrow goes straight through the most heavily sloped part of his breastplate and knocks him off his feet.
This is patently ludicrous.

Well, the props have to be made of something, and real metal is unrealistic. As for that shot . . . maybe they're special arrows? Or, more likely, maybe it's more PJ-brand physics!

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

Well, the props have to be made of something, and real metal is unrealistic. As for that shot . . . maybe they're special arrows? Or, more likely, maybe it's more PJ-brand physics!

Well first of all, though the armor for the background extras was plastic, the "Hero" armor and weapons were made the traditional way, in metal, but I digress.

Special arrows? I don't think so.

Considering that a longbow generates a lot more kinetic energy than a shorter one, and that orc bows and the diminuitive arrows they shoot are, according to the film makers, crap compared to Rohirrim, Gondorian or Elven ones, and the fact that the longer the bow is, the longer the arrow can be, and the longer and heavier the projectile is, the more damage it will do, and the fact that even longbow arrows couldn't penetrate plate steel on a good day, and the fact that that Jackson and co. were quite set on bringing as much realism as possible to the films, you start to think that some scenes might have been handled a little better (don't think I'm mad at you, I'm just frustrated about the Gondorians getting downplayed at all possible opportunities).

What really confuses me is that they could have just as easily had a ranger for the sentry instead of an armored soldier, thereby avoiding this mess. For some inexplicable reason, they seem to have just let control slip on RotK.

Finally, just to sum up, I know that "suspension of disbelief" is required, but that only goes so far. I can believe Legolas sliding down a staircase on shield (much as it irks me), or Aragorn surviving that fall off the cliff. I can even accept Sauron sending dozens flying with his sorcery-bound mace. What I cannot accept is a situation that all previous examples and research tell me is impossible as it is presented.