Crimes Against Tolkienity

[pandora]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Yep, that?s right he went half-insane. More hyperbole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You obviously saw a different movie from me; the part in question was laughable. Gandalf acts totally out of character for him and in fact does something that no sensible person would. Half-insane just about covers it.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Watch the extended edition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How about Jackson just produces a complete film instead of a trailer for the DVD for a change? I don't remember being offered a discount because some of the film was missing (eg Galadriel's gifts).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Saruman is referred to as Aruman many times during Bakshi?s version. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I meant "God knows what Bakshi was thinking here" not you.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And Native American or not, wearing a mini-skirt whilst trudging around wild heathlands and forests is more than a little stupid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The Scots will be upset to hear that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Again the look of the Balrog is nothing to do with technical issues. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In animation complex drawings equals time equals money.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I would say running probably was the best tactic in the circumstances don?t you? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And carrying a bright light?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And the whole point of the charge/pike scene was that they knew the sun would blind the Uruk?s and cause them to lose their focus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Given that they were charging straight onto pikes the orcs could simply have looked the other way: the Riders were commiting suicide.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I felt that was clear enough. As did pretty much the rest of the cinema going population I think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It raised a few giggles in the cinema I was in. Whether that was because of the ridiculous slope they charged down or the risible tactics I don't know.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Right he should have dumped it and missed out on the critic?s acclaim, over $1 billion of movie receipts, Oscar nominations and wins <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, we're back to the old bean-counter argument.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Though I thought this was a discussion forum <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Are you going to discuss something then or just shout "No" again? I've tried to initialise some dialog about how particular scenes were handled, or could have been handled, or were handled by other people. You ignored all of them and just ranted on and on and on and on and on and on about how fantastic is is that Jackson made all that money and how everything he did is justified because it got bums on seats.<P>Tell you what: forget the whole thing. Just go away and be happy in your own little accountant-world that you are right and I'm wrong. I will not be responding to any further posts from you on this topic.<P>Now, are there any adults here that want to discuss, for example, the "Bug-eye" scene?

[Lord of Angmar]

Sadly, this thread has been utterly consumed by ridiculous argument. In retrospect, I find that its initial intentions were rather stupid, so I apologize.<P>Pandora, your denouncing of Peter Jackson's movies and defense of Bakshi's movies is an exercise in futility, since I doubt you will find many on this forum (or, for that matter, on this planet) who agree with your view. It is one thing to criticize, but you have obfuscated your inability to make a productive argument or critique of the movies by making wrathful accusations, and unsupported statements such as "These films have been badly directed, end of story" and "Elrond is simply a pain in the bum, as is Arwen," and touting them as factual.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For me, it's more like - when the films are good, they are very very good, but when they are bad, they are mildly irritating. (The Saucepan Man)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I could not have said it better myself.<P>Cheers, Angmar

[The Only Real Estel]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Do you think Jackson added this crap material because he prefered the original? Of course not! He added it in because he thought it was better, and if that's what he thinks is better he must have a very low opinion of the original.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think that neither of those are accurate. Jackson certainly doesn't have a 'low opinion of the original' & I'm not neccessarily even going to say that he thought his changes were better & that he should go back & re-write Tolkien's books. But some things work in books & don't work in movies. There's been an incredible ammount of griping here, more than I've ever done (suprise!!! ), & more than I ever thought I'd see!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Arwen is a total flop; no one I have talked to - man or women - cares a jot whether he character lives or dies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I've heard unnumerable people who love the character & are interested in it. Granted, I was a little put out by her apperance in FotR, & again (although to a lesser degree) in TTT, but seriously, I can be a more flexible than that! It's pretty much out of the appendixes & it's <B>not</B> changing an entire character or something.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Anyway, there's no point talking to you about this as you seem to have an inability to read what is on the screen in front of you as well as a slavish devotion to being told what to like by accountants and critics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There is something that is called 'personal opinions' also, pandora, & that was a mean-spirited knock on one. Box office figures do support the fact that Jackson can't be doing to badly if he continues to get people to flock to the theaters to see the movie. It can't just be the story, or any of that other stuff I've heard some people trying to feed us. I don't like some of the things that PJ did with LotR, but I think that calling him a bad director is just plain not true <B>and</B> it's ridiculous. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>or "There's not enough time to show that"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>While that certainly seems like an over-used saying, it's true. Seriously, he doesn't have enough time to do the movies. I've said this from the beginning. But what are you going to do? Make a movie so long everyone will need their legs amputated because they didn't have any stretch time? Or we could throw in a bunch of intermissions to brake up the flow of the story & make people lose interest in it. Come on ...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't think theres a single scene in the first film that wasn't badly handled and some ranked alongside the worst in any film I've ever seen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can you give some examples? I mean, surely you can give some main ones & some of the lesser ones for us?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Pandora... best post ever.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>O wow. Lets start dealing out best posts left & right, then. Everyone watch out for flying best post awards.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Jackson never even tried.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That is one of the most un-founded statements I have <B>ever</B> read or heard. Had you stated it as 'your opinion' it would've been different, but to state it as fact is absolutly ridiculous. I'm sure New Line Cinema would just sit him in a chair dump a bunch of money in his lap, & let him slack off even <B>if</B> he wanted to, which I feel rather confident he did not. Now that I think about it, it's really not worth a reply...<p>[ 4:10 PM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Only Real Estel ]

[The Saucepan Man]

OK, let's get back to basics. The title of this thread is "Crimes Against Tolkienity". The premise is a discussion of issues relating to the films which might have offended Tolkien. The possible examples given by Lord of Angmar were the production team's treatment of the environment, merchandising and alteration of the characters/story.<P>It is not about Jackson's skills as a director (although I am afraid that I have contributed to that little "red herring" myself). Nor should it provide an excuse to rail against everything that you find objectionable (or, on the other hand, delightful) about the films. Nor is it a forum for a comparison of the relative merits of the films made by Bakshi and Jackson (if you are interested in that, there are already threads on the Bakshi films - try doing a search against "Bakshi" or "Animated"). A little "off topic" deviation is to be expected, but this thread is getting out of hand.<P>The substance of the films is of course on topic, provided that it relates to a discussion of aspects which you believe that Tolkien himself would have disliked, or perhaps ones which he would have appreciated. But don't trash scenes here just because you don't like them.<P>So, let's try to keep on topic from now on, eh. And please, no more sniping or personal attacks. Otherwise some diligent mod just might come along and start liberally deleting posts.<p>[ 4:27 PM December 17, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[Sharkû]

In addition to what Saucepan said, I think it is a good time to close the thread temporarily so tempers can cool down and some people can THINK about what they posted. They obviously didn't before, or they wouldn't have posted polemics, insulting analysis of others' posts, etc. despited being warned previously; in general or specifically/personally. This is why we're forced to act that way.