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#81 | ||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Well we are the civilized race, and just think of modernity the way I think of stairs, and you might realize it's not so bad. Stairs are my friend, not my enemy.
Groin, sorry if it sounded like I was short-changing the Greeks, that wasn't my intention. Without question we owe our way of thinking and living to the Greeks. We will forever be in their debt. My point I was trying to make was the Greeks came up with the ideas, while the Romans put them into practice and spread them (for the most part). The Greeks weren't too practical and they thought the only people who could understand their ideas were other Greeks. It were the Romans who put their "Western" ideas into practice and spread them to other cultures/those they conquered. (I'm a very biased Roman lover, just so you know that ![]() ![]() I'm not sure how much of an uber-conservative Tolkien was, and the intellectuals claim him to be. I think Tolkien writes a lot about coming to terms with change, and the fact that change is a "fact of life." In several letters Tolkien comments that the Elves greatest weakness was their inability to accept change: Quote:
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In fact, many of Tolkien's villains are people who are static, they don't change in any way. One of the first things that gets associated with Sauron is Barad-dur. Saruman through most of LOTR stays fixed in Orthanc. Denethor is someone who is so controlled by his "wants" and his desire to hold on to the "past" that it drives him to insanity: Quote:
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Faramir wants Gondor to be restored to the glory days, but he is also very realistic. We see this in his rejection of the Ring: Quote:
1. the Ring in a way Denethor (or Boromir) didn't. He knows the Ring is deceitful and thus it would only lead to Sauron's goal, not his own. 2. while Faramir has a peaceful and flowery vision of Gondor, he accepts this is an unrealistic fantasy and at times you just got to accept the brutal reality: Quote:
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#82 |
Shade with a Blade
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Yes! There isn't any real contradiction between realism and romance (the general kind); in fact, reason, realism, and ordinary-ness are at the heart of true romance.
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#83 |
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Romantism and realism seems pretty contradictory, at least from an economic point of view.
Romantism - Glorious sacrifice of the self, or selfish interests, for greater good, definition of "greater good" being lasting beauty, peace, prosperity, friendship. Realism - Preservation of the self and selfish interests, for survival. If sacrifice of self is required, the individual should ensure that survivors know and remember the act of sacrifice so as to ensure a more lasting immortality. From a completely cynical point of view, Faramir gave up the use of the Ring to save Gondor because he realised that he could not possibly have gained complete control of Sauron's power (having seen Gollum). Since the chance of Frodo completing his quest with Faramir's help would be higher, he decided to attain greater nobility in others' eyes, by offering his aid. The scenario at the top of Mount Doom was also pretty conclusive as to the limits of ideals. Frodo failed in his quest. One can only imagine what went through his mind as he put the ring on and claim it for himself: "Screw Gandalf, the Shire and all the rest of Gondor! Give me the one Ring anyday"
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#84 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Thanks for clearing everything up Boromir!
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#85 |
Shade with a Blade
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Not at all. Romance is real.
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#86 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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OK, I'm confused again!
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I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow |
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#87 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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In addition, regarding Frodo's claim on the Ring, I would say that at that moment in Mount Doom the Ring claimed Frodo and not vice versa. The claim was akin to profound addiction, wherein any personal objective or ideal falls subservient to the drug (or in this case, the Ring). That Frodo had reached his objective was in itself astonishing, and beyond the wills of stronger beings (Isildur, Boromir or even Saruman, for instance). Frodo did indeed fail ultimately in destroying the Ring, but his compassion and mercy brought about a fateful conjunction of events that completed the task.
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#88 | |
Fair and Cold
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I think there is such a thing as pure altruism, but it's a state we strive for, not a state we necessarily achieve as human beings. And I think that there is blessing and providence in the act of striving. I'm not entirely sure if Tolkien would agree with me here, but I saw shades of that in Gollum's story.
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#89 | ||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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#90 |
Wight
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Despite sounding hopelessly opportunistic, it is certainly not ideals that drove Tolkien's world. It was pre-destination, and a set of debatable moral values. Greed made Gollum save the day. If Gollum had not gloated over his success, the end would have come all the same.
It is certainly another complicated topic whether the characters in Tolkien's Middle Earth were guided by the hands of Illuvator, or their own free will. But ultimate failure of ideals remained: the mercy of Gandalf/Bilbo/Frodo was abused by the greed of Gollum, Frodo finally became disillusioned with the hardships he went through, and was persuaded by the Ring to claim it for himself. (Unless, one forgoes entirely the responsibility of individuals over their own choices.) Of course, after the fall of Sauron and Gollum, Frodo can feint possession by other worldly powers, and still be hero of the Third Age... (I'd bet that J.R.R. T is turning in his grave somewhere) Certainly, that's not modernism that griped Middle Earth or our Earth. Just hopeless self-interest.
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#91 | |
Laconic Loreman
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#92 | |
Shade with a Blade
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#93 | |
Fair and Cold
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#94 |
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Guns don't kill people, spinning bullets discharged at high velocity do.
It sounds more like a figure of speech to describe Frodo as having "no will left in the matter". A drug addict who did bloody murder to feed his addiction would be just as responsible. "My Precccioousss." - Bilbo, on tobacco rehab. It is an accident which saved Middle Earth, just as it was a boating accident which killed Frodo's parents. (Unless, the gossips are true) One flinches at the prospect of pronouncing moral judgement at the death of Frodo's parents, but ascribes divine intervention at the other. Doesn't that seem like moral values are different from ideals? "I did all that for my Children. It's not right to deprive my cute li' goblins of a land of milk and honey..." - Melkor, on Trial during the First Chaining.
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'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' Last edited by Hot, crispy nice hobbit; 06-23-2008 at 12:17 AM. |
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#95 | |
Shade with a Blade
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Perhaps looking after the condition of one's soul could be considered true self-interest, in which case virtue really isn't selfless at all... ![]() ![]()
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#96 |
Shade with a Blade
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This is off-topic, but here's a good one: if guns kill people, then silverware makes Michael Moore fat (assuming he doesn't eat with his fingers...which may be assuming too much). Ha!
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#97 | ||||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Assigning the psychological crudities of modernity (precluding the evil propensities and the dominating magic inherent in the Ring, for instance) to a fantasy written in a traditionalist mode brings us right back to the demeaning and woodenheaded nature that the intellectuals of the current worldview have for Tolkien, or any classical literature for that matter. Rather than synthesize and embrace various literature and come to terms with the norms presented at the time the piece was written (as well as reveling in the historical intonations reverberating from the past), they instead berate entire eras of literature and parade their own addlepated notions as the end-all, be-all to what is correct and aesthetically pleasing. *The Dark Elf steps down from his well-worn soapbox* Ummm...yeah, whatever. Quote:
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 06-23-2008 at 12:22 AM. |
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#98 |
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It's nothing personal, but I find it ironic that you should call the modern process of chicken rearing cruel, whereas attribute absolute dominating evil power to the Ring. Nobody really likes the idea of eating cruelly tortured chicken flesh, but then nobody likes the idea of soaring chicken meat prices either. (With that pretty much everything which comes with inflation of commodity prices) On the other hand, the individuals that you mentioned, (Boromir, Bilbo, Frodo) clearly had a choice in claiming the Ring for themselves, failed to resist and yet epitomized heroism and triumph of ideals. (Frodo's utterance:"On Mount Doom, doom shall fall" sounds pretty cryptic... does that mean that he's telling Sam his going to fail?)
Besides, madness (i.e. the mad Gollum) pretty much absolved his guilt in snatching the Ring, doesn't it? "I pleeeead inssssaaanniityyy...." - Gollum
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'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' Last edited by Hot, crispy nice hobbit; 06-23-2008 at 07:11 AM. |
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#99 | ||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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#100 | ||
shadow of a doubt
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#101 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Okay, Skip, look at it from your human, synchronic point of view. Suppose you see a car wreck. You didn't cause it, there's nothing you can do to prevent it, you just see it as it happens.
The classic philosopher's answer to your conundrum applies that model to the Deity's infinite vision: seeing everything happen in His omnipresent Now is not the same thing as causing or ordaining it.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#102 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I don't know if this will help, but the following is from the Mere Christianity Leaders' Notes over at Opendiscipleship.org, and looks at Lewis' thoughts in Mere Christianity (I can't seem to find my copy).
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#103 |
Shade with a Blade
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Divine predestination and human action are two different perspectives on the same thing, but you can't really consider them alongside each other on the same plane. It's as if God is an author writing a story. On one level, He determines everything that happens. On another level, the characters in the story are held responsible for their actions within the story.
This isn't, of course, to say that God is totally outside of the story, as an author is. He is perpetually involved, and that's where my analogy breaks down. ![]()
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#104 | |
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I beg your indulgence for your misunderstanding, Morthoron. (Though I'd refrain commenting on personal attacks in the posts...)
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To feed cities and towns, meat needs to be processed quickly and hygenically. A breakdown in the rearing process drastically reduces the supply of chicken meat. The price of meat foodstuff ultimately increases because alternative meat foods such as beef and pork experience greater demand. Of course, it's not the end of the world for USA or many European countries. God/Budda/Allah forbids though, that commodity prices should rise higher in developing countries, which imports their foodstuff. On the other hand, the One Ring is seen as embodying all-consuming evil power without any redeeming qualities. The irony lies in the fact that evil chicken meat corporation managers have more in common with our hero Frodo than villian Gollum: they can't stop the torture once it began, and certainly didn't get a good rep for it. I guess it had to be to each his/her own in the regard of the evils of the chicken sandwich. Since modernists probably won't even read LOTR more than twice (due to the mind boggling logic of magic), you'd bet that I agree more with your other arguements than you expected. ![]()
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#105 | ||||
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Kevin: "Do you mean you knew what was happening to us all the time?" Supreme Being: "Well, of course. I am the Supreme Being. I'm not entirely dim." Randall: "Oh, no sir. We weren't suggesting that, sir. It's just that. . ." Supreme Being: "I let you borrow my map. Now, I want every bit of evil placed in here, right away." Kevin: "You mean you let all those people die just to test your creation?" Supreme Being: "Yes. You really are a clever boy." Kevin: "Why did they have to die?" Supreme Being: "You might as well say, 'Why do we have to have evil?'" Randall: "Oh, we wouldn't dream of asking a question like that, sir." Kevin: "Yes, why do we have to have evil?" Supreme Being: "Ah. . .I think it has something to do with free will. And there you have it. Everything you wanted to know from the Supreme Being, but were afraid to ask.
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#106 | |
Fair and Cold
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#107 |
Flame Imperishable
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But Tolkien uses "doom" to mean "fate" a lot of the time so aybe what he actually means is that even if his fate is to go to Mount Doom then whatever happens there is only governed by free will, and he might not even be able to give the ring up, even though it's his fate.
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#108 |
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There seems to be a generally unequivocal stance on the moral implications of choices. But what about the moral implications of having no choice? Let's rephrase the question: Evil is said to be a by-product of free-will, but people do not choose to be born with free-will. And rectifying the phenomenon of free-will (i.e: through slavery, capital punishment and martial law) would be generally considered tyranny (and thus evil).
The slaves of Sauron and Morgoth are condemned for imitating the characteristics of their masters. And yet, being born under the yoke and thus having known nothing else other than the teachings of their forebears, they were probably the least evil of the lot. Of course, they get tempted by power and prestige like other "Free Peoples", but they should not be held responsible for their evil characteristics like Gollum or Bill Ferny. Aragorn did not hold Butterbur and Bree as ingrates because they did not give the Rangers credit for their protection. Again, it seems like that the traditional stance did not offer any migitations for evil caused from being granted free will. (I believe Tolkien did write in HoME about having the need of some "Christ" coming to save the Edain under Morgoth, but that certainly did not materialise).
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'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' Last edited by Hot, crispy nice hobbit; 06-24-2008 at 07:38 AM. |
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#109 | ||
shadow of a doubt
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Well, yes, that's a better word.
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Gwathagor used the analogy of a novelist. You might say the novelist is outside of the timeline in his book. Reading his finished work, he knows everything that is going to happen, because he is the author of the story. If you look upon God and his creation this way you can talk about predestination, right? With this view however the characters aren't free to act inside of the story as they can only do only what the writer wrote, be that good or evil. In other words, they lack free will, and can not be held accountable for their actions - at least not fairly. Fate you say (and that's a general you, not you Morth), is different, as it depends on free will. And free will is of course imperative for a story like LotR or for Christianity. Without free will no one is morally culpable, and chioces are just an illusion. So there must be free will, or Frodo wasn't brave at all, he merely did the only thing he could have done. But still you say that God, or Eru if you wish, can forsee all future events. I just can't make this out, I'm sorry. If Eru is able to forsee all future events, and hear the entire Music to the last note, there can be only one possible outcome. And with only one possible outcome, time is a straight line, just like in the metaforical novel above, and Frodo isn't brave, he is a mere puppet, albeit unknowingly. Why even get out of bed? What else can you do? Quote:
When reading Tolkiens works I detect a delicate balance between two views of the world; one being "everything's preordained", the other being "faith and responsibility lies in our own hands". In my mind, these two views can never be joined together. I really wonder what Tolkien thought of it.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 06-24-2008 at 12:03 PM. |
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#110 | ||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Just a comment on this:
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![]() But seriously, it's tricky, because as Tolkien says some of this he wrote as long as 20 years ago, he doesn't have all the answers, and his Letters are his thoughts after (sometimes LONG after) writing the story. So, even though in various Letters Tolkien talks about Eru's intervention at Mount Doom, it's just as conceivable to argue it was an accident. There are some cases where he is just forgetful in Letter 210 he says (while criticizing Zimmerman's screenplay) that the Balrog doesn't make any noise. Yet going back and reading The Bridge of Khazad-dum the Balrog clearly does make noises! ![]() Now, in Letter 156 Tolkien says that it was Eru who sent back Gandalf, and this is the only possible answer, because going back to the book (The White Rider) Gandalf talks about being out of "thought and time" and then being sent back. Anyway, you got to be careful when using Tolkien's Letters, because he contradicts himself and it was his thoughts after writing the story. What's really amazing is the adaptability of Tolkien's story, and I whole-heartedly disagree with Brin and the others who argue there is no reconciliation between Tolkien and modernism: Quote:
The Lord of the Rings is a very long story, but many parts of it are left vague and for the readers' imagination. No wonder why the story has withstood the test of time and still remains an enjoyable, popular read, in this horribly wicked modern world. ![]() skip spence, excellent stuff! I just want to say perhaps the word that could be used is "luck." Tolkien thought he had been a lucky man... Quote:
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#111 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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Excellent research, Boromir88, and points well taken. I think we can all now admit that Tolkien didn't know what he was bloody talking about, or rather, enjoyed the art of writing letters more than worrying about the veracity of the contents. As Hot and Crispy Hobbit Fingers said on several occasions: "Tolkien's work only embraced the ideals, not the details." Who knew that also applied to his letters?
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. Last edited by Morthoron; 06-24-2008 at 07:35 PM. |
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#112 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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One wonders whether, when Tolkien wrote phrases like "his fate drove him" and the like, he was thinking of 'fate' not as Latin fatum or Fata, but as a translation of OE wyrd, which doesn't carry that same implication of intention, but comes closer to "that which happens"- T certainly knew that fatum originally meant the ruling or pronouncement of a god, and in that sense was much closer to OE dom, modern doom.
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#113 | |
Shade with a Blade
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(Keep in mind that this is an analogy, and as such has its limitations. Don't try to take it farther than it's meant.)
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#114 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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ne se hreo hyge helpe gefremman. For đon domgeorne dreorigne oft in hyra breostcofan bindađ fćste; A weary mood won't withstand wyrd, nor may the troubled mind find help. Often, therefore, the fame-yearners bind dreariness fast in their breast-coffins. That's a stanza from the OE poem The Wanderer. It basically relates that one can try to hide from troubles, or bravely fight on and win in the face of adversity. Interesting concept (sort of an Anglo-Saxon Self-Help manual). At first blush, one would think that the OE definition of wyrd (which has a prominent place in Beowulf as well) would be Tolkien's primary linguistic focus. He seems to use the words doom and fate interchangeably, and wyrd is a closer approximation of Catholic Predestination dogma in that one has a personal wyrd which is subject to one's free will; where it variates slighty from Catholicism is that one's personal wyrd is inhibited or affected by another person's wyrd, and I can see many cases in the books where this is the case.
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#115 | ||
shadow of a doubt
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I see little or no conservatism of this kind in Tolkien's books. If anything, the ideals expressed is those of Liberalism in it's original meaning, that is "Do as you wish, as long as you don't hurt anyone else". Aragorn, as a representation of a just ruler, never forces anyone to follow him or claims that they should because it's their duty and that he is in the right. He doesn't tell anyone what to do, instead he says: Those who are willing, follow me! This is what I believe in. Invading Orcs or Easterlings will be treated harshly of course, but he makes no claim to dictate their lives as long as they stay away or act nicely. Of course there are no references to for example gays in LotR (thank god for that!) but if there were I'm certain Aragorn wouldn't make any judgement on their liftestyle. I think a strong message in the books is tolerance, tolerance and humility. You may not have all the answers, Tolkien seems to say, and your will isn't more important than others peoples'. The evil of Sauron and Morgoth is that they try to bend everyone's will to theirs: they have no tolerance for other opinions. Arrogance and greed is also a common flaw among the "good" characters such as Turin, Feanor or Thorin. Are these ideals of tolerance applicable in today's modern society? I would think so. ![]() Those of religious inclination may also appreciete the strong message of faith in a good God expressed in the books. This message is not specifically a Catholic or Christian one however, at least not in those works published by JRRT himself.
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 06-29-2008 at 03:46 AM. |
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#116 | |
Shade with a Blade
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#117 | |
shadow of a doubt
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I'm repeating myself...
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Or can they? Please explain to me how they can. How can the book character Sauruman repent, and do what he was sent to do?
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#118 |
Shade with a Blade
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Don't Complain, You're Not the Only One
It's a matter of which perspective you take: divine or human.
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#119 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Skyrim, again.
Posts: 820
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Quote:
I love tough theological questions.
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Werewolves vs. Fishmen. The battle of the century. |
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shadow of a doubt
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
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Quote:
Or is it perhaps chaos that governs the universe? Think of the butterfly effect. Every event, although seemingly uninportant, has the potential to change the world. Had fex. Hitler succeeded as a painter the world might have been a very different place. Will a mouse in a maze always choose the same path, given the exact same conditions? If the answer is no, the future must be uncertain, and no amount of omnipotence could get around that. Quote:
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"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan Last edited by skip spence; 07-17-2008 at 03:09 PM. |
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