Feanor Self-Important?

[Gorthol]

the Teleri could've ferried the Noldor across and then sailed the ships home themselves.

I second to this! To start a war over the ships wasn't the right way to go, it would have been better for all if the Teleri just had complied with Fëanors wishes, right or wrong. I doubt Ossë would have sunken any ships if they had been used as "ferrys" instead of taken by force and through the deaths of many Teleri.

However, what I have a hard time understanding is that the Valar seems to put so much of the blame of everything that happened on Fëanor and the Noldor, eventhough it was the lies of Melkor that corrputed them..

[Lord of Angmar]

I too think that the Valar were unfair in judging the Noldor when it was clearly the craft of Melkor. However I stand firmly by my belief that the Teleri had every right to reserve from the Noldor (even as ferries) the work of their hands, as it was against the will of the Valar and as Feanor was obviously, if you will pardon the expression, off his rocker.

[the phantom]

the Teleri had every right to reserve from the Noldor (even as ferries) the work of their hands

Yes, they had the right to not help their friends.

as it was against the will of the Valar

Who cares what they think? All that should've mattered is the situation at hand. Olwe should've considered the factors involved and the possible outcomes and weighed his decision on those things rather than placing all weight with the wishes of the Valar.

Feanor was obviously, if you will pardon the expression, off his rocker

Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps the flame Eru set in his heart was indeed greater than the Valar knew (as Feanor stated), and caused him to be the only one bringing about the ultimate designs of Eru in every situation, whether it could be done in a harmless way or seemingly had to be done in a negative way because of the resistance of others.

[Lord of Angmar]

I still do not believe that it makes sense that the flame that Eru Illuvatar set in Feanor's heart would cause him to take actions that so egregiously opposed the will of Manwe, who alone of all the Valar can read the thoughts of the Creator. The suggestion that somehow Manwe could need even fathom Curufinwe's true purpose is within the realm of possibility, but it is merely conjecture that I don't think we can back up in any conventional sense with the texts provided to us (please do not accuse me of being anti-Noldor or anti-Feanor, as some have suggested, as Feanor is one of my favorite characters and one of the most interesting, and the plight of the Noldor is one of the saddest things I have ever read of).

[The Saucepan Man]

Olwe should've considered the factors involved and the possible outcomes and weighed his decision on those things rather than placing all weight with the wishes of the Valar.

What is there to suggest that he did not do this? Quite possibly he did and simply came to the same conclusion as the Valar, namely that Feanor's plan was folly:

We renounce no friendship. But it may be the part of a friend to rebuke a friend's folly.

And if he truly believed that it was folly for the Noldor to leave Aman in the circumstances then prevailing, why would he be willing to help them leave? Certainly, he was quite within his rights to refuse to give or lend the Noldor the Teleri ships, which he describes thus:

... these are to us as are the gems to the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.

Quite possibly, in time, Olwe might have been persuaded to build new (obviously less wondrous) ships. But Feanor did not stay to discuss the matter further. Hot-headed as always, he simply stormed off to brood and then, when he considered that the strength of his force was sufficient, he returned to steal them, clearly with the intention of doing so by force if necessary.

[Gorthol]

What is there to suggest that he did not do this? Quite possibly he did and simply came to the same conclusion as the Valar, namely that Feanor's plan was folly:

Yup, but still he *also* knew the temper of Fëanor at the time, cause he had just lost his father, his Silms., and being decieved by Melko (one of Valars kin) and were pretty frustrated to say the least. Since the Teleri provided the only way to reach Middle-earth again (afa the elves knew at the time) they had to borrow the ships, being ferried over, or steal the ships to get across. Building ships werent an option since there wasn't time for that. This Olwë knew, still he refused.

these are to us as are the gems to the Noldor: the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again.

I do think they loved their ships as much as noldor loved the Silms. But still a ship doesn't break just because you use it to ferry some people over. Ossë wouldnt have sunken them either.

[Tinuviel of Denton]

Ossë wouldnt have sunken them either

Maybe not, but he might have made it difficult to actually get to ME. Setting them against the wind, altering the currents, those things would have effectively kept them from reaching their destination.

Who cares what they [the Valar] think?

Well, the Teleri obviously cared. And perhaps Olwë thought that by keeping Fëanor in Valinor, he was protecting him. Fëanor was not sane at the time, and most people don't let the insane wander around, especially those who are insane through grief and anger.

When one has lost their father, their greatest treasure, and one's life has been turned upside down, one is rarely able to think coherently.

Please don't think that I'm Noldor/Fëanor bashing. I love all of the elves.

[The Saucepan Man]

... a ship doesn't break just because you use it to ferry some people over.

Who's to say that the ships, or some of them, would not have been destroyed? The Noldor were planning on leaving Valinor against the will of the Valar and sailing in chase of a pretty dangerous Dark Lord, the most powerful of the Valar no less, and a fearsome and gigantic spider with a serious over-eating problem. That seems to me to be a fairly risky maritime undertaking.

Olwe had no more idea than we do as to what might happen to his precious ships if he permitted them to be used to ferry the Noldor across to ME.

No, I am still firmly of the view that he was well within his rights to refuse to allow them to be used.

[Gorthol]

Who's to say that the ships, or some of them, would not have been destroyed? The Noldor were planning on leaving Valinor against the will of the Valar and sailing in chase of a pretty dangerous Dark Lord, the most powerful of the Valar no less, and a fearsome and gigantic spider with a serious over-eating problem. That seems to me to be a fairly risky maritime undertaking.

Well, that's of course impossible to say, but surely the kinslaying was the factor that triggered Ossës wrath and have him sunk many of the ships. Eventhough Fëanor did act against Valars will and he said some stuff that was wrong, still my belief is that they (Noldor, Fëanor) hadn't done anything really terrible previous to this. I say that Ossë wouldn't have sunken any ships if it weren't for the kinslaying and the deaths of the Sea Men he loved. Valar had no authority to prohibit Noldor from returning.

[the phantom]

in chase of a pretty dangerous Dark Lord, the most powerful of the Valar no less, and a fearsome and gigantic spider with a serious over-eating problem. That seems to me to be a fairly risky maritime undertaking

Only if 1- Melkor and Ungoliant had suddenly taken to swimming, and 2- Ulmo, Osse, and Uinen refused to ensure their safety (in the unlikely event that Melkor suddenly decided he didn't hate water anymore, was no longer afraid of it, and had learned to control it overnight).

The voyage seems pretty safe to me.

(speaking of Osse) Maybe not, but he might have made it difficult to actually get to ME. Setting them against the wind, altering the currents, those things would have effectively kept them from reaching their destination.

The Valar and their servants weren't supposed to hinder the Noldor's flight. The only reason the sea rose against the Noldor was because of the kin slaying. If that didn't happen, the sea wouldn't have done that, make sense?

Since the Teleri provided the only way to reach Middle-earth again (afa the elves knew at the time) they had to borrow the ships, being ferried over, or steal the ships to get across.

This Olwë knew, still he refused.

Yes, exactly! That's the sort of reasoning that should've been obvious to Olwe. But I guess he never thought of that. How could he not think of something so simple? Because he wasn't thinking at all, he was just going along with the Valar. If those in charge have too much influence in individual peoples' lives then those people lose their ability to make good decisions (which would reinforce their need for those in power, it creates a never ending spiral).

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

that he was well within his rights to refuse to allow them to be used.

Too true. Now mind you all, Feanor is my favorite character and I think he's the coolest elf that there was, but look at it from a slightly distorted sense:

Feanor lost his gems and wanted to go after the thief. The only way to get to them was to hijack the ships of the Teleri, either by their leave, or without it.

Switch views: After destroying the Light, rather than going to Feanor's place, Melkor veers off and goes to the Teleri and steals their ships. The Teleri are royally ticked and want their ships back, but they can't get to ME without the aid of the light of the Silmarils, so they go and ask Feanor to borrow them, or he can have other choices: he can make them some more (or similar), or he can come along with them and guard the Sils. As if Feanor would have let them have his Silmarils! He would have been preoccupied with the thought that Melkor might take them by force from the Teleri and he'd never get them back, he'd think that the Teleri wanted the Sils for themselves. He wouldn't think intelligently, he'd jump to conclusions, just like the Teleri did, and probably refuse them point blank.

So even though I love Feanor, why on Earth did he think the Teleri would just hand over their ships when put in their positions, he wouldn't have?

Fea

[the phantom]

why on Earth did he think the Teleri would just hand over their ships when put in their positions

Like I keep saying, they had other options to exercise besides handing their ships over.

he'd think that the Teleri wanted the Sils for themselves. He wouldn't think intelligently, he'd jump to conclusions

Actually, in the case of the Silmarils, Feanor would probably be correct in jumping to that sort of conclusion. Even mighty King Elwe was moved to greed by the Silmarils despite the direct advice of his wife (who was a Maia) to give it up.

I think the fact that Olwe attempted to compare his ships with the Silmarils was a bit ridiculous (perhaps he was taking too much pride in his work). The Silmarils on the other hand dropped the jaws on the Valar even, and the fate of the world was tied with them. I think it was quite a stretch for Olwe to compare his people's ships with the greatest work of hands ever made. Perhaps he was trying to find some reason, any reason to say no to the Noldor so he could justify in his heart obedience to the Valar's wishes.

[The Saucepan Man]

Only if 1- Melkor and Ungoliant had suddenly taken to swimming, and 2- Ulmo, Osse, and Uinen refused to ensure their safety (in the unlikely event that Melkor suddenly decided he didn't hate water anymore, was no longer afraid of it, and had learned to control it overnight).

For all Olwe knew, Melkor could have twisted creatures of the sea and enlisted them into his service. Add to that the possibility of an ambush by Melkor's forces (Orcs, Balrogs and possibly more besides) at the point of landing, which could have led to the ships being boarded and any Teleri "taxi pilots" being slain. And why should Ulmo, Osse etc ensure the safe passage of the Noldor (even with Teleri assistance) when their actions went against the wishes and counsels of the Valar?

Like I keep saying, they had other options to exercise besides handing their ships over.

The only option which might have been acceptable to Olwe would have been to build more ships. But as I said, while Olwe might have been persuaded to agree to this, Feanor wasn't prepared to discuss the situation reasonably. He skulked off with the intention of coming back later in force and simply taking the ships.

Because he wasn't thinking at all, he was just going along with the Valar.

As I have said previously, there is nothing to suggest that Olwe didn't consider the matter independently and simply reach the same conclusion as the Valar.

If those in charge have too much influence in individual peoples' lives then those people lose their ability to make good decisions

And Feanor's decisions were good? [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Like others on this thread, I am not Feanor-bashing for the sake of it. I find him to be a compelling character, one of the most interesting in the Silmarillion. And I can understand (although not necessarily agree with) his actions (excepting of the burning of the ships at Losgar). I just don't believe that Olwe should bear any blame for the Kinslaying simply for refusing to hand over (or lend) the Teleri ships to Feanor. Had Feanor thought matters through deliberately and rationally and been prepared to enter into calm and reasoned discussion, it is quite possible that he could have found a way of getting back to ME without resorting to theft by force (such as persuading the Teleri to build ships especially for the purpose). Ah, but that was not in Feanor's nature. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

that Olwe attempted to compare his ships with the Silmarils was a bit ridiculous

Not really, at least, not in the way I'm thinking. You see it as the jaw-dropping-changed-the-future type of creation. That the ships don't even compare because the Silmarils were simply much more important, but that wasn't really how I was thinking of it. Yes, the Sils were more important, but if you look at it, not what they did but what they were, you can see that Olwe was correct in comparing them. Both the Sils and the ships were the prizes of their people, the best thing that they could possibly make, and the likes of which could never be made again. If they were lost, any of them, it's not like they could be replaced, so Olwe was correct in seeing that the prize of his people should not be handed over lightly, especially against the wishes of their protectors.

Fea

[akhtene]

Perhaps my opinion will be too human (and too emotional) but here it is.

Nobody was thinking rationally at any given moment, or trying to really come to any reasonable terms.

There are victims, yes, but I wouldn’t call any party straightaway villains.
Take Feanor. Cherished by his father, admired by everyone, used to having things his own way – in a moment he loses everything! First the Trees are destroyed – and he must have admired them, as he included their light in his gems. Then his father is killed and his treasure is stolen – he just hadn’t been prepared to that! He gets a most severe shock and is simply unable to think or choose words.

The Valar. They seem too placid sitting there in the Ring of Doom, weeping. They were mourning the Trees, but wasn’t it their responsibility to guard and guide the elves and do something about a case of vandalism, murder and theft, which occurred in their lands? How come that it was bitter and furious Feanor who addressed his people first? I suppose the Valar were taken unawares, but then it looks as if they just took offence. Feanor really sounded harsh and called to unwise actions, he was taking too much upon himself. But no help was offered or counsel came from the Valar. You may say it was a matter of faith. Feanor lost it.

Moreover, by Manwe’s curse Feanor wasn’t given any choice. He was exiled and had to leave Valinor. Can you imagine Feanor begging for mercy right away? But again, he wasn’t given any time to calm down and come to his senses. It was like an avalanche – every next moment driving him further by the road of rejection and hatred.

As for Telleri, they were in their right to refuse any help and refer to the Valar’s wish to justify themselves. And they could pronounse their ships the greatest treasure of their kin. But then the Noldor were after THEIR treasure, and the only hope to reach it was by those ships. If only Telleri would look for compromise or play for time. But no, Olwe’s words were not less arrogant than Feanor’s.

Anyway, wasn’t all that just Eru’s intention to return elves back to M-E, to face Morgoth and fight him, without a chance to desert to comforts of Valinor? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

[the phantom]

One thing people seem to be forgetting is that the Noldor had to get to ME as soon as they possibly could. They actually arrived a bit later than they should have, a result of their march being hindered.

Why did they have to be back in ME immediately? Well, do you remember what was going on back in Beleriand?
From the Silmarillion-

and they issued from Angband's gates under the clouds that Morgoth sent forth

But the Orcs came down upon either side of Menegroth

and they plundered far and wide; and Thingol was cut off from Cirdan at Eglarest

But the victory of the Elves was dear bought. For those of Ossiriand were light-armed, and no match for the Orcs, who were shod with iron and iron-shielded and bore great spears with broad blades; and Denethor was cut off and surrounded upon the hill of Amon Ereb. There he fell and all his nearest kin about him

the Orc-host in the west was victorious, and had driven Cirdan to the rim of the sea

Morgoth had started his world conquest machine up the instant he got back to ME. At the point where I stopped quoting, the only refuges left were the Havens and Doriath, and the Havens were about to go down to defeat. Thingol and Melian shut themselves in Doriath and she put out her girdle of protection. In other words, the world was pretty much open for conquest (except Doriath, and how long would it last if Morgoth gave it his 100% concentration and no one else was distracting him).

Things looked pretty bleak, but here's what happened-

In this same time Feanor came over the Sea in the white ships of the Teleri

But the host of Morgoth, aroused by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning at Losgar, came through the passes of Ered Wethrin, the Mountains of Shadow, and assailed Feanor

The Noldor, out-numbered and taken at unawares, were yet swiftly victorious; for the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes, and they were strong and swift, and deadly in anger, and their swords long and terrible. The Orcs fled before them, and they were driven forth from Mithrim with great slaughter

There the armies of Morgoth that had passed south into the Vale of Sirion and beleaguered Cirdan in the Havens of the Falas came up to their aid, and were caught in their ruin.

Evil indeed were the tidings that came at last to Angband, and Morgoth was dismayed. Ten days that battle lasted, and from it returned of all the hosts that he had prepared for the conquest of Beleriand no more than a handful of leaves.

Feanor saved Beleriand, and pretty much the whole world from Morgoth. If he could've arrived sooner, maybe he could've saved many more of the innocent elves of Beleriand who were slain in battle.

And note what the burning of the ships accomplished. The burning was a huge factor in making Morgoth's forces turn their attention away from Cirdan and Beleriand and attack the Noldor ("and the noise of the burning of the ships at Losgar went down the winds of the sea as a tumult of great wrath, and far away all that heard...", it was the noise and light of the burning that attracted the Orcs). If the ships wouldn't have been burned, the orcs likely wouldn't have learned of the Noldor's arrival until later, so they very possibly would've broken through and taken out the almost defeated Cirdan at the Havens.

So as you can see, even the most insane of Feanor's actions was the best conceivable way to bring about good in the world.

If Eru's plan was to have some powerful elves go back to ME, who would he send? The Noldor. They were the greatest warriors.

What is the only way the Noldor would go back? If they wanted to go.

How could you get such a large group of people to want to go? Put a fiery desire to leave in the heart of the greatest persuader and orator ever to live.

When did they have to be back? As soon as possible. The world was under attack.

How could they get there that quick? They would have to be hindered as little as possible on their journey and taken over the sea in boats.

They were refused the use of the boats but the timetable hadn't changed. How do you get them over the sea in time now? They must steal the boats.

Because of the battle and the wrath of the sea delaying them, their arrival is almost too late to save Beleriand from the Orcs. How do you get the Orcs attention as quick as possible? You light up the sky with a huge noisy burning.

Feanor did what needed to be done. His heart could sense the greater good and the big picture, and he was able to look past the means to the ends and do what had to be done to bring about the best possible result. He was a tool of fate.

[The Saucepan Man]

If Eru's plan was to have some powerful elves go back to ME, who would he send? The Noldor. They were the greatest warriors ...

... Feanor did what needed to be done ... He was a tool of fate.

Why, in that case it is Eru who must take full blame for the Kinslaying, and for the burning of the ships at Losgar for that matter. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

No, I'm sorry but I just cannot accept that all of Feanor's actions were "meant" to happen for the good of ME. Feanor had free will and must bear responsibility for his actions and their consequences, both good and bad. Yes, some good came of them, but that does not justify the death and suffering that were largely (if not wholly) brought about by them.

I would add that, if Feanor were simply a puppet of fate and had no free will of his own, it would, for me, destroy a large part of what makes this character so fascinating. He would become an automaton, animated by the will of Eru, rather than the fiery, passionate, complex and (yes) flawed character that I consider him to be.

[Gorthol]

Feanor had free will and must bear responsibility for his actions and their consequences, both good and bad.

We are all formed through our upbringing, our environment and our genes. I think "what you are" and "what you become" is formed through that, i.e. you don't have any "free will" it's already decided for you. Fëanor was decieved by the mightiest of the Valar, and how powerful Fëanor even was, this was no problem for Morgoth, he corrupted Fëanor and is imho the one responsible for what later happened. Cause compared to the knowledge that Morgoth possessed Fëanor was but a child..

[the phantom]

if Feanor were simply a puppet of fate and had no free will of his own... He would become an automaton, animated by the will of Eru, rather than the fiery, passionate, complex and (yes) flawed character

That's not exactly what I meant. I'm saying that the extreme potency of his spirit and his unmatched passion allowed his heart (which was good) to choose whatever course of action would have the best results. Sort of like his heart could see the future and if necessary would overcome the counsel of his mind so he would choose that which would bring about good.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

the phantom posted:

I think the ridiculous amount of influence the Valar had over the Teleri is one of the most interesting aspects of this whole debate. It was like a dictatorship or something. "The Valar wish this, so I'll completely treat their wish like an all out command and assume that the Valar are perfect. I don't need to think and discern for myself, I'm just a puppet." I think that is so horrible.

Morgoth would agree completely with those words [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] , he couldn't either stand Eru's 'dictatorship'.

Gorthol posted:

We are all formed through our upbringing, our environment and our genes. I think "what you are" and "what you become" is formed through that, i.e. you don't have any "free will" it's already decided for you.

Fëanor and Noldor had free will, as well as the Vanyar and the Teleri [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The difference is that Fëanor is too proud to accept guidance by others. I completely agree with Lord of Angmar and The Saucepan Man. It is just too easy to excuse our bad acts by blaming the environment or our genes, and I cannot imagine Fëanor doing it. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[The Saucepan Man]

That's not exactly what I meant.

I understand what you mean, phantom. It's just that I think that it detracts from Feanor's character to consider his actions in terms of fulfilling the will of Eru. As Amarie has suggested, Feanor's actions fulfilled the will of Eru in much the same way that those of Morgoth did. No, Feanor's actions were driven by his own motives, feelings and desires. Those I can sympathise with. But I have little sympathy for the way that he put them into effect.

Sort of like his heart could see the future and if necessary would overcome the counsel of his mind so he would choose that which would bring about good.

Well if that was the case, then his heart was misguided. To the extent that his actions did ultimately work to the good (and I agree that the return of the Noldor to ME was, overall, a good thing), I firmly believe that there were ways in which the same good could have been acheived without the suffering inflicted along the way - not just the Kinslaying and the burning of the Teleri ships, but also the whole way in which the Doom of Mandos played itself out.

[Gorthol]

Fëanor and Noldor had free will, as well as the Vanyar and the Teleri The difference is that Fëanor is too proud to accept guidance by others. I completely agree with Lord of Angmar and The Saucepan Man. It is just too easy to excuse our bad acts by blaming the environment or our genes, and I cannot imagine Fëanor doing it.

You only have free will within your own understanding. The problem for the society today and others is that when a person breaks the law it's only *that* person that is to blame, don't you think that it's more likely that this person is formed through his life, his upbringning, his school, his genes?? And thus becomes what he becomes..?
That's what I stand by 100% Do we have a free will? Or is what we do and accomplish already decided through whats stated above? Fëanor was decieved by the God of all Gods so how can you blame him? Really?

[ July 04, 2003: Message edited by: Gorthol ]

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Put a fiery desire... in the heart of the greatest persuader and orator ever to live.

Reminds me of Hitler.

However, that's not why I'm writing this post. In the very beginning of the Silm, around when Melkor first disrupted the music and such (I'm probably not all that accurate since I had to return the copy of the Silm that I had), wasn't it written that Eru had made it so that all "bad" things that happened on Earth would contribute to the greater good that he imagined? Or something like that? You'd think that the Creator of everything would look at things from a different view than "the end justifies the means."

Fea

[Gorthol]

wasn't it written that Eru had made it so that all "bad" things that happened on Earth would contribute to the greater good that he imagined? Or something like that?

Yea, it would contribute to the greatness of the story/music.

[King_Elendil]

It's almost disappointing how soon Feanor died in the Sil.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

Do we have a free will? Or is what we do and accomplish already decided through whats stated above? Fëanor was decieved by the God of all Gods so how can you blame him? Really?

Yes, I do think that we have free will. And that all of us are responsible of our acts, including Fëanor. I can understand why he acted as he did, because I am often too proud and irascible [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) as he was, but that does not mean that neither his acts nor mine could be justified by blaming the Valar or Eru. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] His acts were 'tolerated' by Eru. This is what Tolkien thought of free will:

To conclude: having mentioned Free Will, I might say that in my myth I have used 'subcreation' in a special way (...) to make visible and physical the effects of Sin or misused Free Will by men. Free Will is derivative, and is.'. only operative within provided circumstances; but in order that it may exist, it is necessary that the Author should guarantee it, whatever betides : sc. when it is 'against His Will', as we say, at any rate as it appears on a finite view. He does not stop or make 'unreal' sinful acts and their consequences.
Letter No. 153

And here there is an interesting debate on free will:
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin...c&f=1&t=002495

About how Eru turn evil into good, this is the same problem that has been faced by all Catholics for centuries (and probably by all other christians). In my opinion, in the Ainulindalë, he is only translating the beliefs of the Catholic Church into the language of his sub-creation:

For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
St. Augustine, Enchiridion II, 3: PL 40, 236.

"In time we can discover that God in his almighty providence can bring a good from the consequences of an evil, even a moral evil, caused by his creatures: 'It was not you', said Joseph to his brothers, 'who sent me here, but God. . . You meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive.'[Gen 45:8; Gen 50:20; cf. Tob 2:12 (Vulgate).] From the greatest moral evil ever committed - the rejection and murder of God's only Son, caused by the sins of all men - God, by his grace that 'abounded all the more',[Cf. Rom 5:20 .] brought the greatest of goods: the glorification of Christ and our redemption. But for all that, evil never becomes a good."
Catechism of the Catholic Church

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

that does not mean that neither his acts nor mine could be justified by blaming the Valar or Eru

So very true. If you've ever read the book A Wrinkle in Time then you will probably understand better what I'm about to say. If you haven't, bear with me while I try to explain it. In AWiT, Mrs. Whatsit (i beleive) tries to describe the human life using a sonnet.

To write a sonnet, you have to follow very strict rules, correct? And if you do not follow the rules, than the poetry becomes something other than a sonnet. However, the form of the sonnet can be filled any way you like. You get to choose what the sonnet is about.

According to Mrs. Whatsit (I think), the human life is like a sonnet. God/Eru/whatever else you happen to believe in, gives your life the form, and you choose how to fill it. So Eru would give the life and the form, but you get to choose what your life becomes. In two words: Free Will. You create your own life, you make your own choices, and even if your choices are affected by how you were raised, they still belong to you and nobody else can be blamed if you use your free will badly.

So Eru gave Feanor his form, and he gave him the capabilities to complete the 'sonnet', but it was Feanor himself, not Eru, who made the mistakes, created the masterpieces, and got really miffed at the bad guys. Eru may have 'made' him in the first place, but Feanor 'made' what he became. ie: Not Eru's doing.

Fea

[the phantom]

I firmly believe that there were ways in which the same good could have been acheived without the suffering inflicted along the way

The only way that could've happened is if the Valar and the Teleri wouldn't have hindered the Noldor, because like I showed earlier, at that point in the Silmarillion they had to get back to ME ASAP in order to bring about much of the good they accomplished.

What should've happened? Should the inflamed Noldor who had lost their king and treasure and were setting out with the righteous intention to battle Morgoth be expected to act differently? It was hardly possible. Plus Morgoth would've overrun the world if they wouldn't have returned.

It would have been so much easier for the Valar to just say, "Okay, you can go if you want." And since the elves had to be taken across the sea to Valinor with the aid of the Valar, the Valar should've provided some means of returning to ME.

Does it seem ridiculous to anyone else that the Valar weren't "hindering" the Noldor's march, yet they knew good and well that there wasn't any known way to leave (except by the ships of the Teleri, which they had under their thumb)? The Valar were willing to let the Noldor rebel because they didn't think they'd get anywhere (and the Sil even says that they didn't think Feanor could hold the Noldor to his will).

The Valar were really acting unwise in this whole ordeal. "Hey Olwe, the Noldor are going against our will, so what do you say when they ask to use your ships? Good boy. Okay Noldor, we won't hinder your purpose to leave Valinor... (snicker)... (Hey guys, I don't think there's really any way for them to leave anyway, hee hee)."

Well, I doubt they were actually laughing, but you get my point. What did the Valar expect to happen? I insist that this is one case where the Valar were completely unprepared and just totally bungled and mismanaged the whole situation.

Their actions and/or lack of actions caused Feanor to be left with no other way to complete his destiny other than the way he did it.

[Legolas]

I'm saying that the extreme potency of his spirit and his unmatched passion allowed his heart (which was good) to choose whatever course of action would have the best results.

That doesn't seem to be the case.

Does it seem ridiculous to anyone else that the Valar weren't "hindering" the Noldor's march, yet they knew good and well that there wasn't any known way to leave (except by the ships of the Teleri, which they had under their thumb)?

No, it doesn't seem ridiculous. There was a way to leave Aman and go to Middle-earth. Did you completely skip the bit where Fingolfin's company marched across Helcaraxë?

The prevention of the Kin-Slaying was not in the Valar's power to stop - they were not to intervene so directly, especially in matters not directly related to them (as none of their kind were involved, like the situations with Morgoth and Sauron).

And since the elves had to be taken across the sea to Valinor with the aid of the Valar, the Valar should've provided some means of returning to ME.

So if a taxi takes you downtown, it's his place to make sure you have transportation later? The Noldor weren't required to come to Valinor...they came of their own free will (and left it the same way). Whether or not the journey there was aided, the Valar had no obligation to take them back.

What should've happened?

Feanor's Noldor "should" have built their own ships, or marched on like Fingolfin's Noldor did, or stayed in Valinor. Anything that didn't bring death on innocent bystanders.

Should the inflamed Noldor who had lost their king and treasure and were setting out with the righteous intention to battle Morgoth be expected to act differently?

You could expect them to act "righteously" if they are on such a righteous task. Or maybe just "rationally." That would've worked.

Plus Morgoth would've overrun the world if they wouldn't have returned.

Obviously not. Eru's will would be done in the end no matter what. We have no basis to say what would've happened if the Noldor hadn't have gone back to Middle-earth. Morgoth would've been defeated one way or another. Probably not as soon as Feanor or the Noldor would've liked, but that's the way it goes.

You're fooling yourself. You can say "The Valar didn't stop the Noldor from killing the Teleri." You cannot say "It is the Valar's fault that the Noldor killed the Teleri."

It's not the Valar's fault that Feanor killed people.

[ July 05, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[the phantom]

There was a way to leave Aman and go to Middle-earth. Did you completely skip the bit where Fingolfin's company marched across Helcaraxë?

Oh, come on. That was hardly a realistic option. They didn't even know it was possible and when they tried it a bunch of them died. If you want to talk about how lives could be saved, the Noldor crossing the ice certainly wouldn't do that (and they wouldn't get back to Beleriand in time to save it from Morgoth's first invasion).

Whether or not the journey there was aided, the Valar had no obligation to take them back.

Yes, and if my friend gets drunk, I have no obligation to give him a ride, but I do because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own (even if it was his own stupid fault for getting drunk, but in Feanor's case, he was a bit "drunk" by no fault of his own but rather the slaying of his father, the rape of his treasure, and the lies of Morgoth).

So I guess I'm a more decent chap than the Valar.

Feanor's Noldor "should" have built their own ships, or marched on like Fingolfin's Noldor did, or stayed in Valinor.

And which one of these actions would have got the Noldor back to ME in time to save Beleriand? Umm...none of them.

Eru's will would be done in the end no matter what. We have no basis to say what would've happened if the Noldor hadn't have gone back to Middle-earth. Morgoth would've been defeated one way or another.

Well, I guess the last point doesn't mean anything if you honestly believe that whatever Eru wants to happen will happen no matter what. (I personally believe that things happen Eru's way, but that he inspires his creations to bring them about. They do the work.)

But if we use your theory that Eru makes everything happen the way it's supposed to no matter what, then no one should ever do anything.

The Valar should've never gone to war against Melkor because if it was Eru's will that Melkor be chained then it would happen anyway. The Valar should've never fortified their land because if it was in Eru's plan for them to be safe then they would be automatically. They should've never made the trees because if Eru wanted there to be light it would've happened.

Obviously that's all ridiculous. In order to bring those designs to life, action had to be taken. Eru only acts personally if absolutely necessary.

Was there any different action that Feanor and the Noldor could've taken to still bring about the exact good they accomplished? Not that I can see.

The Valar, on the other hand, could've done something to preserve the good the Noldor accomplished while at the same time preventing the kin slaying (they could've done that by just taking the Noldor to ME, same good accomplished, the bad part skipped).

In other words, Feanor accomplished the good he accomplished by the only means possible (unless the Valar were to help). The only way the good still happens without the bad is if the Valar assist the Noldor.

That is unless you use the philosophy that everything would happen right anyway, but I've already shown my justifiable disbelief in that notion.

I'm not asking anyone to call Feanor perfect or say the Valar are evil, but I'd just like everyone to admit that the way things happened left Feanor with little choice on courses to take to fulfill his mission, and that the Valar maybe should've seen the bad stuff coming and definitely could've made the whole situation a lot easier.

[Legolas]

Oh, come on. That was hardly a realistic option.

Oh? And killing your own kindred for their ships is "realistic"? Would you murder your uncle to use his car to drive after a thief? If the thief was the Devil himself? Surely not.

If you want to talk about how lives could be saved, the Noldor crossing the ice certainly wouldn't do that (and they wouldn't get back to Beleriand in time to save it from Morgoth's first invasion).

But if the Noldor died crossing, it would be a loss they brought upon themselves. The Teleri were completely innocent and uninvolved. The Noldor chose to bring this upon their kindred - if any should suffer, it should be them.

Yes, and if my friend gets drunk, I have no obligation to give him a ride, but I do because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own (even if it was his own stupid fault for getting drunk, but in Feanor's case, he was a bit "drunk" by no fault of his own but rather the slaying of his father, the rape of his treasure, and the lies of Morgoth).
So I guess I'm a more decent chap than the Valar.

Completely wrong. You have set up a great example, especially with your statement "because I can see the consequences of what could happen if he tried to get home on his own": the Valar could clearly see the consequences of what could happen if the Noldor tried to fight Morgoth. You giving your friend a ride would be the same as the Valar not allowing the Noldor to go to Middle-earth. You care for your friend and know that driving drunk is certain danger, that he could die. Even more so did the Valar know the Noldor were marching towards certain death and tried to turn them away. It is only because of the Valar's intervention later that any Noldor survived (whether through Ulmo/Tuor or Manwe's forces in the War of Wrath). The Noldor still proceeding to leave Aman is like your friend attacking another friend, stealing his car keys, and taking his car for a spin, only to burn it and kill himself in a wreck. The Valar are you, or the parents, saying "Don't drink and drive," threatening to take away the keys, etc. Some people just don't listen.

And which one of these actions would have got the Noldor back to ME in time to save Beleriand? Umm...none of them.

Did the Noldor save Beleriand anyway? No. Did they have a chance? No. An emphatic no.

(I personally believe that things happen Eru's way, but that he inspires his creations to bring them about. They do the work.)

Tolkien is explicit about this. Whether or not a being is doing what Eru would prefer, he or she will still prove to be an instrument of him in the ultimate realization that good overcomes evil.

But if we use your theory that Eru makes everything happen the way it's supposed to no matter what, then no one should ever do anything.

That is entirely not what I said. You said Morgoth would've come to control the world if the Noldor had not have sailed to Middle-earth. That is a very far-fetched notion, and would not have happened while the Valar were still present in Arda (and they will be until it's end, so you have nothing to worry about).

Was there any different action that Feanor and the Noldor could've taken to still bring about the exact good they accomplished? Not that I can see.

Of course you can't see. You don't want to. There are endless possibilities, none of which we can forsee or hope to judge. We can only judge what did happen, and what the Noldor did was foolish and caused unnecessary grief.

I'd just like everyone to admit that the way things happened left Feanor with little choice on courses to take to fulfill his mission, and that the Valar maybe should've seen the bad stuff coming and definitely could've made the whole situation a lot easier.

Why did Feanor have to fulfill his mission in such a way? Why could he not listen to the Valar in the first place? Do you not think the Valar could've handled the situation? They obviously could (and did later on). Morgoth's strongholds would not have stood forever, and though we do not know exactly what course the Valar would've taken, it would've been more effective and thought-out than Feanor's. Feanor's courses were few - only two, that I see...patience or haste. He chose haste, the worse of the two. The Valar just would not resolve it as quickly or hastily as Feanor preferred. Taking it upon himself against the counsel of the Valar caused much unnecessary grief. He brought all that ensued upon himself. The Valar saw the bad stuff coming - that's why the Noldor weren't supposed to leave in the first place. The Noldor not only killed some of the Teleri, but were brutally killed themselves. It was only by the might of Thingol and the Sindar (and Men) that the Noldor lasted as long as they did.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Aredhel Idril Telcontar]

Do you think the Valar could not have handled the situation? They obviously could (and did later on)

The War of Wrath only happened because Earendil managed to sail to Valinor and beg for help. The Valar would not have interfered unless Morgoth would have threatened Valinor.

Did the Noldor save Beleriand? No.

When Morgoth first attacked the Sindar, they were not able to protect themselves. Feanor burning the ships (like Phantom said) drew the attention of the orcs from Cirdan. However reprehensible that act was, it did turn out for the better.
If the Noldor would not have come, Beleriand would have been overrun. It's obvious.

[Legolas]

The War of Wrath only happened because Earendil managed to sail to Valinor and beg for help. The Valar would not have interfered unless Morgoth would have threatened Valinor.

That was the case because of the Noldor going to Beleriand. You have no idea what the Valar would've done in the event of the Noldor remaining in Valinor. The situation would've been dealt with - they would not have ignored it.

If the Noldor would not have come, Beleriand would have been overrun. It's obvious.

Beleriand was overrun anyway. Remember the part the Noldor lose?

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Oh? And killing your own kindred for their ships is "realistic"?

It's realistic, Legolas, it's just not all that nice. And you're right about the fact that we can only judge the actions that occured; how can we argue about how mere speculations as to different courses could have changed things? It should be at least a little obvious that simple actions can change the future in very complex ways. Example: Bilbo stumbled across a ring in the dark. Example: Melkor got a little creative in his singing. Example: Sam eavesdropped at Bag End. Example: Wormtongue threw a big rock at Gandalf/Saruman. My point: you can't judge what "might have" happened, because it's impossible to know.

That probably didn't make much sense, so if you're confused, just ignore me. Cheers,

Fea

PS- Congratulations me on my 100th post!

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Feanor of the Peredhil ]

[Novnarwen]

Hmmm.... This is an interesting thread...

As Legolas said:

Oh? And killing your own kindred for their ships is "realistic"? Would you murder your uncle to use his car to drive after a thief? If the thief was the Devil himself? Surely not.

Feanor was a bad man... He was self important in a way. I feel he was kind of obsessed. He wanted to be the best.

And I don't see why he wasn't willing to give the Silmarills to Yavanna. If Feanor had said yes to give them to her, he would do something for all of them, in Beleriand and Middle-earth. Not just himself. (I know Morgoth took them at that time, but Feanor didn't know that. I hope that made sense) That was soooo stupid off him.

And go killing his friends for boats?? What was that dude thinking? (Am I sensing some boat obsession too?) And I think the worst of all is: that he burns the ships. Fingolfin was nice to him. I think that Fingolfin actually respected him. And that was a huge deal. After all, Feanor had never been nice to Fingolfin.

Feanor had no moral, that's why I think he is self-important. He really doesn't care about others. Just his treasures...

I am not sure anything of this made sense... Just feels good to express my "hatred" against Feanor... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

*Nova, the Feanor "hater".. hehe

(Okey then, I do not hate him, he just annoys me..)

[Legolas]

It's realistic, Legolas, it's just not all that nice. And you're right about the fact that we can only judge the actions that occured; how can we argue about how mere speculations as to different courses could have changed things?

If so, crossing the Grinding Ice was a more realistic and more integral option. Killing kindred because they were unwilling to help (and for good reason) should not be even considered as an option. The possibility is certainly there, but that's as far as it should've been "developed" (thus remaining undeveloped).

Feanor's sort of self-obsessed, do-what-I-want-no-matter-who-else-suffers approach cannot be excused or simply cast off as understandable.

Another point to ponder: put Feanor and his Noldorin camp in Olwe's shoes. Would he have allowed Olwe's Teleri to take his own boats across the ocean? Surely not. He probably would not have responded as calmly as Olwe did. He might have allowed them to do so if they bribed him enough. Olwe and Finarfin really prove to be the wisest here.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post (about a simple/single action's great importance). It is exactly because of that that we cannot see much of what would've happened without Feanor's rebellion and kin-slaying.

What we can presume is that the situation would've been handled. No one can say that "No Feanor's rebellion = Beleriand falls, Morgoth takes over all of Middle-earth." It's not like that the only thing that could've happened - in the event of no rebellion, it's not like everyone would've sat around in Valinor and danced/sang/drank merrily until Morgoth took over the rest of the world.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Lord of Angmar]

I think we all agree that nobody can really know the mind of Feanor or his reasoning at the time of the Kinslaying. Was it a reasonable reaction to Olwe's decline? No. Was Olwe in the right in refusing him the ships? This is the biggest question to be debated, but strong arguments can be made for both sides. As for me, I believe that Olwe should have felt no bond to lend or give the ships of his people to Feanor. Beyond the simple facts of the Kinslaying, it can only be debated how things may have come out differently, but certainly there is NEVER justification for slaughtering your own kin.

[Angry Hill Troll]

Actually Fëanor's rashness provided a solution for the otherwise impossible dilemma in which the Valar found themselves. The following quote is from the "Myths Transformed" section of HoME X: Morgoth's Ring

...Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original "angelic" powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip on the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was the probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise. This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated, Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of 'Middle-earth' was Morgoth's Ring...the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda. Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda.

Fëanor, somewhat unwittingly, provides the solution to this problem:

If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reëstablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm....[at the time of the War of Wrath] Morgoth though locally triumphant had neglected most of Middle-earth during the war; and by it he had in fact been weakened: in power and prestige (he had lost and failed to recover one of the Silmarils), and above all in mind...he had fallen to like being a tyrant king with conquered slaves, and vast obedient armies.

But what would have happened if Fëanor had listened to "reason" and not left Valinor without Manwë's permission? What exactly was Manwë's preferred course of action for dealing with Morgoth, who after all "had to be fought"? If the previous experience of the attack on Utumno after the awakening of the elves is any guide, it probably would have been to delay any action far longer than would have been prudent:

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor so greatly to damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it.
-Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth

I think the same situation applies in this case. Morgoth was, as others have pointed out in this thread, about to completely conquer Beleriand when the Fëanorians showed up and chased him back to Angband for the next 450 years. Perhaps having Fëanor be the way he was, was in part Eru's way of ensuring that Melkor/Morgoth would be dealt with in a timely manner the second time around. Note that Fëanor´s rebuke to Manwë's herald is very similar in its criticism of Manwë's overly...uh... pensive approach:

Say this to Manwë Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me.

Note that when Manwë hears of Fëanor´s rebuke to Namo, he takes the philosophical approach and expresses his hope that some good, or at least some good songs and poetry, will come out of all this...(sigh)

But, Fëanor should just have crossed the Helcaraxë.

[ July 06, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[ July 11, 2003: Message edited by: Angry Hill Troll ]

[the phantom]

Hill Troll, you went and quoted two of the very things I was searching for this evening. [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

But that's okay, you made the point better than I could've.

Perhaps having Fëanor be the way he was, was in part Eru's way of forcing the Valar to deal with the issue of Morgoth in a timely manner the second time around.

Yes. That's what I've been trying to say. Feanor was created for a certain specific and high purpose, and was given such a nature that he could not possibly deny his destiny (nor delay it, since delay was exactly what his purpose was to avoid).

Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwë that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier

Yes. That wonderfully proves my point about the Valar not always having the best answer or approach. It's certainly within the realm of possibility that Feanor's approach is better than theirs and that the Valar should have "followed him" (as he spoke to the herald).

Say this to Manwë Sulimo, High King of Arda: if Fëanor cannot overthrow Morgoth, at least he delays not to assail him, and sits not idle in grief. And it may be that Eru has set in me a fire greater than thou knowest. Such hurt at the least will I do to the Foe of the Valar that even the mighty in the Ring of Doom shall wonder to hear it. Yea, in the end they shall follow me.

It was this statement by Feanor (and the reaction it got from the herald of the Valar) that really convinced me that Eru had to be behind the Feanor led exodus. It's such an amazingly powerful statement, and Feanor delivered it with such fire that the herald "bowed before him as one full answered". When I read that, I knew that Feanor was fulfilling some high purpose and that the Valar were making the wrong call on this issue.

Feanor had to do a certain deed for the good of the world, but how this deed could be accomplished was left up to the Valar. They chose to limit the paths he could follow to a single bloody road leading to his goal, so he took it. There's the one place that I disagree with you, Hill Troll. It would've taken too long to cross the Helcaraxe. He wouldn't have been back in time to destroy Morgoth's invasion force before it laid ruin to all of Beleriand (except Doriath). And who knows, if you give Morgoth a few extra days or extra weeks with absolutely no opposition, maybe he personally goes out to battle alongside Sauron, his Balrogs, and all his armies and they even break Doriath.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

*Nova, the Feanor "hater".. hehe

Ouch.

I'm honored that my longest running thread has become so popular, but I have one request:

It doesn't matter whether you like Feanor or not, let's try to keep Feanor-bashing to a bare minimum. We all know that he did some stupid stuff, but try to keep to the original topic: was he a fat-head, and what made him that way. Not just "he shouldn't have" or "it's all Feanor's fault" type stuff. Thanks,

Fea