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04-08-2007, 03:26 PM | #41 |
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Excellent Question. I would have loved to have discovered that Norse mythology had primed me for Tolkien, just has it had originally inspired Tolkien himself.
Note: "inspired" = in - spirit = indwelling spirit But no, yet just as comically what primed me for Tolkien was old Godzilla movies. The image of the dragon, you see. I did not explore Norse mythology until much later, and actually, have rejected my former religion in favor of Wotanism. My place in Vahalla is assured. I am a Warrior of the Rainbow Bridge, Acoltye of Hiemdoll, and Bezerker of Wotan, Wielder of the Divine Bolts. Last edited by Neithan Tol Turambar; 04-08-2007 at 03:27 PM. Reason: spelling blunders |
04-08-2007, 03:39 PM | #42 |
A Mere Boggart
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I used to love the Japanese Godzilla cartoons they showed on kids telly in the 70s. Of course Godzilla was an awesome goodie, as he's supposed to be (despite the Hollywood abomination of the nineties which made me really cross) in those so he may well have primed me for dragons too.
Then again, in the 70s there was also Ivor The Engine by the amazing Oliver Postgate, which had kindly Welsh dragons. And yet again, there was Oliver Postgate's weird Northern/Icelandic myth Noggin The Nog, which I also loved. This is essential viewing for any Tolkien fan, as I've never yet met a fan who didn't like it (if they'd seen it!).
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04-08-2007, 04:50 PM | #43 |
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After reading Lalwende's post I suddently (don't really know why) remembered of something else.
As a kid I very much enjoyed watching Ivanhoe and Robin Hood cartoons. I really liked the whole chivalry, medieval thing, and I think that "prepared" me in a way for Tolkien's works.
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04-08-2007, 05:14 PM | #44 | |
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04-08-2007, 08:23 PM | #45 | |
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Baptism in its most literal sense involves a washing or submersion in water, a purification marking entrance into witness or membership in the community. For the sake of the original quotations from Lewis, I'll limit my thoughts to Christian ideas about the ritual. Now, traditionally baptism means the washing away or remission of sins in preparation for receiving Christ. What sins could Lewis imagine his story would be washing away? Or was he merely being allegorical (as was his wont) in suggesting some kind of precursive experience with purification which would enable children (in this case) to perceive the holy story? Or was he thinking of Catholic ideas of baptism, a desire to be part of the Church founded by Christ? I guess what I am getting at is this idea that one needs to be cleansed of error and mistake, prepared to accept the greater meaning of a fulsome text, whether it is Lewis or Tolkien. So, first of all, could there be texts which in fact prepare us not to understand and accept those of Lewis and Tolkien? Is our reading such that we have to be purged of some of our tastes and familiar favourites before we can appreciate Narnia or Middle-earth? What are these texts? Are there truly sins in reading that must be purified? Secondly, what does it mean to hold secular texts as needing rituals before they are fully appreciated? Why can't the books themselves reach out to us? Why would they be dependent upon precursor texts? Now, Lewis was not a Catholic, but Tolkien was. Catholic doctrine says that we must be cleansed of the taint of original sin before we can enter the Christian community. Is this a concept in keeping with Tolkien's Legendarium? Do readers really have to experience a rebirth or forgiveness of error in order to receive Tolkien's story? Forgive me if I am being pedantic here, but I think that's a trait Tolkien himself would have allowed his readers. Last edited by Bęthberry; 04-08-2007 at 08:26 PM. Reason: the usual |
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04-08-2007, 08:38 PM | #46 |
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Zestfully Clean!
Do you need to get washed up to take a bath?
Worse yet, do you need to clean the water afterwards? Tolkiens morality is fundamentally different from Christianity in several key pionts, I am very interested in your pedantic enquiry, and would like to try to match your pedantry, but it deserves a topic unto itself. And it should be long indeed. Many pages and everyone should have now, or should begin presently, to form a thoughtful opinion about it. Last edited by Neithan Tol Turambar; 04-08-2007 at 09:05 PM. Reason: cleaning |
04-08-2007, 09:25 PM | #47 | |
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Oh, and, by the by, my pedantry pales before that of the illustrious Squatter and the highly English lettered davem and the astute Aiwendil, so perhaps you can set yourself a higher bar. Last edited by Bęthberry; 04-08-2007 at 09:40 PM. |
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04-08-2007, 09:31 PM | #48 |
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Wow! You have alot of Posts!
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04-09-2007, 12:03 AM | #49 | |
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Davem -
This is an enjoyable thread, and I can definitely point to personal things that I felt "prepared me" to accept and love Tolkien. The part of Middle-earth I first connected with was Tolkien's depiction of trees and the land, the Shire and Lorien especially. LotR became a crash course in appreciating the natural world. All the rest--characters, medieval texts, and the depths of the Legendarium-- only came later. The reason I could see and appreciate that natural beauty was that I spent a chunk of my time in the sixties protesting environmental issues and rambling in the countryside through the Appalachian Mountains, along the shores of the Great Lakes, and then in south Wales and the West Country of England. When I read Tolkien, I could feel the grass poking up between my toes. Yet, to be honest, when I first read this thread and saw the word "pre-baptism", part of me reacted the way Bethberry did..... Quote:
I remember once reading a passage --- can't say specifically where it came from -- in which Tolkien and Lewis were talking about themselves as the final "true" remnents of "Western Civilization"....the fact that they were two grand old men who approached texts and ideas from a different vantage point than the readers who would come after them and that meant they had a very different way of looking at things. I'm not even talking about Christianity here, though that could be part of it. Rather they were talking about an acceptance and appreciation for "traditional" western culture and having a certain kind of education. At the time, the discussion rubbed me the wrong way a bit and I still have that image in my head when someone talks about somehow "cleansing " us to prepare for something else. Probably a crazy reaction. I don't know if anyone else has had a response like that.
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04-09-2007, 01:47 AM | #50 | |
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Bethberry:
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...slewis_9.shtml So Lewis seems to have meant something along the lines of 'preparation for baptism'. I'm reminded of something Tolkien said about his stories being aimed at those readers with a 'still undarkened heart' (or something along those lines). 'Purged of the gross' also seems to come into it. Tolkien is writing for those whose hearts are still undarkened, & I suppose those 'surviving' in that state will respond to any glimpse of light they see. |
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04-09-2007, 04:33 AM | #51 | |
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It's not enough these days to just find something beautiful. It all has to have a purpose. It's so utilitarian and depressing.
That's the problem which makes so many people hate Tolkien and fail to appreciate what he created. They feel that what they must read must mean something, that their spare time was not wasted in merely enjoying an adventure. And that's what sticks in my throat about Lewis. His work has fallen prey to the modern need for utilitarianism as it has to have this 'higher purpose'. Ugh. I knew there was something iffy and stilted about his work when I was trying to read it and then I found out what it was and it was like a revelation - of the kind he would not have expected. Steeped in fairy tales as a child, I was well aware of what 'magic' looked and smelled like and it smelled a bit 'off' in Narnia. But Neil Gaiman says it better: Quote:
That's the essential joy of Tolkien. You open this book and enter this other world immediately. It doesn't exist to teach you anything, it is just there. Like Tom Bombadil, it just 'is'. That makes you feel as though when we close the book, that world goes on without us, regardless of us, in spite of us. It's real because it's not made for us, it's going to exist without us. All you need to love Tolkien is an open mind, one that's open to magic and Art and adventure. One that doesn't expect any revelations or lessons. That's what a 'still undarkened heart' is.
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04-09-2007, 04:49 AM | #52 |
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Lalwende...I'm not sure if I understand what you mean.
Is this a movie you are talking about...Robin of Sherwood? If yes, I think I might have seen it, but I'm not so sure.
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04-09-2007, 05:28 AM | #53 | |
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It was on TV in the mid-80s. The first series starred Michael Praed, and later ones Jason Connery as Robin after Praed left to join the cast of Dynasty (the fool). You'll also find Ray Winstone as Will Scarlett! It was a huge hit and remains a huge cult. Written by Richard Carpenter who also did the seminal Catweazle (about an 11th century wizard travelling in time). Clannad did the music. It manages to combine genuine British folklore with adventure and peril, and it can also be really funny (not least looking at all those 80s mullets!). It had a mystical feel to it and had a lot of really scary moments - The Swords of Wayland springs to mind as one of the best, with its scary witches and ancient British mythology. There are loads of clips on YouTube! And if tempted its often repeated on satellite channels and the DVDs are available. I could watch it over and over. Robin in this is what a Ranger is to me. Watch it if you can, it's awesome!
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04-09-2007, 07:42 PM | #54 | ||
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Augustine, Calvin, Lewis, Tolkien . . . brrrrrr! |
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