Galadriel VS The witch- king

In the Sillmarillion, Galadriel is referred to as an athlete, and more when she is in Valinor. Was she really an elf warrior and actually faught at events such as the kinslaying at Alqualande? If time came and she had to battle the with king himself, could she perhaps kill him since she is a women?Is she, in your opinion, the most powerful Elf in middle-earth at the time of the third age?

[Lindale]

In Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, she is indeed a sort of warrior; but she didn't join Feanaro in the Kinslaying; she defended her mother's kindred with Celeborn, who is a Telerin Elf here. (Celeborn's kinship is somewhat confusing, just check out the UT). And in the Third Age she is acknowledged the greatest Elf in ME; she alone remained of the leaders in rebellion from Aman. Galadriel and Feanor are the greatest of the Noldor (of all times?). Although I read something about Luthien being the greatest of all Elves.

But though she played a part in the destruction of the Ring, she had no physical participation(ie, she didn't fight in the war herself nor personally go with the Fellowship) like Gandalf who went. She is sort of an inspiration for them (save maybe Boromir, who doubted her). Her gifts proved very useful even after the War (Sam's fertilizer stuff), and during the Quest itself (Frodo's vial, Legolas's bow, Gandalf).

[The 1,000 Reader]

In a matter of "I know more than you" Galadriel wins. In a matter of "I'll slice off your head" the Witch-King wins.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

In a matter of "I know more than you" Galadriel wins. In a matter of "I'll slice off your head" the Witch-King wins.

WRONNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG

How many times must it be said? THE ELDAR DO NOT FEAR THE NAZGUL.

[Boromir88]

And to continue on with what obloquy said:

Their peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless.~Letter 210

Galadriel would not have feared the Witch-King, so the Witch-King would not have "great physical power" over Galadriel.

Fear is a powerful weapon, and it's one the Nazgul use effectively (and that fear is even enhanced more in the dark), but if you do not fear them, then they can be overmatched. As shown by in their encounters with Glorfindel and Gandalf.

yeah that would be nice to see Galadriel slice the witch king in half!

[The 1,000 Reader]

You don't have to be scared of a car to be brutally run over and killed by one. The nazgul used fear, yes, but that doesn't mean they were helpless without it. Eyown showed no fear of the Witch-King, yet with one blow the Nazgul Lord not only shattered the shield of Rohan's Shieldmaiden, he broke her arm. A nazgul can still chop off your head whether or not you're scared. Just because you're not scared of it doesn't mean you'll beat it. Nazgul could be defeated, yet that doesn't mean bravery=instant win. At the gate of Minas Tirith, Gandalf-who did not fear the Witch-King-doubted he could win.

Also, before you guys say anything about "social rank" leading to instant victory, remember Sauron against Huan. Sauron was the greatest of the Maia, and he was utterly humiliated and defeated. Ungoliant defeated Morgoth. Thingol was torn apart by the bare hands of dwarves. Tulkas beat Morgoth. With the ring and in a powerful form, the best Sauron could do was tie with a war-weary Elendil and Gil-Galad. Smaug was beaten by Bard. Sam beat Shelob. Being an Eldar may make Galadriel un-afraid, but against a king of men from the days of Numenor who became an un-dead warlord, the fair elven lady who most likely wasn't a warrior would lose in a battle. Fear is a great power of the Nazgul, yes, but they are still pretty much non-stiff zombies with swords and combat experience regardless.

Galadriel is great, yes, but I don't see how she could defeat the Morgul Lord in combat. She's great for wisdom, not for battle. While she is wiser and has a ring of power, she likely wouldn't stand a chance against the Witch-King. Sorry guys, but even if you're brave, if you aren't experienced in combat and aren't in good fighting shape, a tall, combat-ready zombie is likely going to beat you.

[Boromir88]

Eyown showed no fear of the Witch-King, yet with one blow the Nazgul Lord not only shattered the shield of Rohan's Shieldmaiden, he broke her arm.

But you are comparing Eowyn to, as has been shown one of the mightiest Elves on Middle-earth. Eowyn though strong and brave, can be no way compared to Galadriel's power. Also, I never said that the Witch-King had no power over the fearless, the quote just says they had "no great power over the fearless," as opposed to those who did actually fear them.

Also, before you guys say anything about "social rank" leading to instant victory

Point taken, but "rank" certainly plays a significant role in the outcome. Sure elves can slay Balrogs, men can slay dragons...etc. In all those cases the people siezed a good oppurtunity to beat an opponent of greater strength. But, "social ranks" have a big effect on the outcome, because the majority of the time the greater power would win.

At the gate of Minas Tirith, Gandalf-who did not fear the Witch-King-doubted he could win.

I beg to differ...

'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
...
'Nay, I came rather to guard the hurt men that can yet be healed; for the Rammas is breached far and wide, and soon the host of Morgul will enter in at many points. And I came chiefly to say this. Soon there will be battle on the fields. A sortie must be made ready. Let it be of mounted men. In them lies our brief hope, for in one thing only is the enemy still poorly provided: he has few horsemen.~Minas Tirith

Denethor's words show more contempt and dislike towards Gandalf, sort of like "Oh, Gandalf you retreated...have you met your match then?" and Gandalf simply tells him no.
Then the actual encounter:

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dínen.
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'
...Gandalf did not move. And in that very moment, away behind in some courtyard of the City, a cock crowed. Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war, welcoming only the morning that in the sky far above the shadows of death was coming with the dawn.~Siege of Minas Tirith

Gandalf shows no fear and is the only one to stand before the Witch-King...

Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go ' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.'
'But Faramir!' cried Pippin. 'He is not dead, and they will burn him alive, if someone does not stop them.'
'Burn him alive?' said Gandalf. 'What is this tale? Be quick!'
'Denethor has gone to the Tombs,' said Pippin, 'and he has taken Faramir, and he says we are all to burn, and he will not wait, and they are to make a pyre and burn him on it, and Faramir as well. And he has sent men to fetch wood and oil. And I have told Beregond, but I'm afraid he won't dare to leave his post: he is on guard. And what can he do anyway?' So Pippin poured out his tale, reaching up and touching Gandalf's knee with trembling hands. 'Can't you save Faramir?'
'Maybe I can,' said Gandalf; 'but if I do, then others will die, I fear. Well, I must come, since no other help can reach him. But evil and sorrow will come of this. Even in the heart of our stronghold the Enemy has power to strike us: for his will it is that is at work.'

Gandalf is faced with a choice, to pursue the Witch-King in what seems like he's confident he can defeat him. He "must" go or others will die. He's faced with a choice, go after and kill the Witch-King, or save Faramir, he chooses the latter. Gandalf throughout the whole encounter shows no sort of second-guessing...plain and simple he could have mopped the floor with the WK.

Also seeing, so great was Galadriel's power that Lothlorien would only fall if Sauron himself came...

[obloquy]

You don't have to be scared of a car to be brutally run over and killed by one.

If cars were your enemy and you knew that they 1) could and 2) would smash you at their first opportunity you would be foolish not to fear them. Your example is not analogous at all.

The nazgul used fear, yes, but that doesn't mean they were helpless without it.

When Gandalf spoke of Glorfindel not fearing the Nine, he wasn't talking about the fear that they project as a offensive tool. He was referring to how Glorfindel "rode openly against them", and how they fled from him in his wrath. The Eldar did not fear the Nazgul because the Nazgul had no power over them; and, evidently, the roles of Scary and Scaredy-cat were reversed when an Elf-lord got involved. As I said above, Not fearing an enemy who has the power to kill you is foolish: the Eldar were not foolish.

Eyown showed no fear of the Witch-King

What Eowyn did not fear was death. She did not confront the Witch-King because she fearlessly felt she could defeat him; she merely stood her ground and defended her king in the face of certain death. Since she was only human, I promise you she felt that fear that came with the Nazgul. But she stood up to it.

She's great for wisdom, not for battle.

All of the qualifications you people require really get tiresome. Tolkien frequently spoke of the "greatest" of this or that group without restricting his definition to one or two "skills" ("bow-hunting skills, 'numchuck' skills, computer hacking skills..."). Tolkien doesn't say that when he referred to Galadriel as one of the greatest two Noldor it was because of her wisdom. That is an assumption that you made, likely because of some prejudice towards women. Somehow I doubt that you put some silly qualifications on Feanor's greatness (which is parallel to Galadriel's); surely he was not only wise but also mighty in battle.

At the gate of Minas Tirith, Gandalf-who did not fear the Witch-King-doubted he could win.

Really? Can I see some textual support for that? Because it would sure be ironic if the mightiest being in Middle-earth was scared of going toe-to-toe with the laughably overconfident Witch-King. What I see in the book is a daddy telling a neighborhood bully to get lost--and he obeys.

Sauron was the greatest of the Maia, and he was utterly humiliated and defeated.

WROOOONNNGGGGGGGGG again. Produce a quote that says that Sauron was the greatest of the Maiar (yeah, that's Maiar).

*Edit: And, while we're at it: Sauron is the greatest of the Maiar in what? Somehow the concept of general greatness is not difficult for you to grasp in Sauron's case, but Galadriel's greatness requires some (spurious) qualifications.

Tulkas beat Morgoth.

At which point in Morgoth's existence it is no longer a surprising feat.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

If cars were your enemy and you knew that they 1) could and 2) would smash you at their first opportunity you would be foolish not to fear them. Your example is not analogous at all.

A nazgul could and would kill you at their first opportunity as well. You don't have to be greatly afraid of cars to be killed by one. A car lover (no fear at all) could get run over. The nazgul did not rely on fear alone.

Originally Posted by obloquy

When Gandalf spoke of Glorfindel not fearing the Nine, he wasn't talking about the fear that they project as a offensive tool. He was referring to how Glorfindel "rode openly against them", and how they fled from him in his wrath. The Eldar did not fear the Nazgul because the Nazgul had no power over them; and, evidently, the roles of Scary and Scaredy-cat were reversed when an Elf-lord got involved. As I said above, Not fearing an enemy who has the power to kill you is foolish: the Eldar were not foolish.

Please provide the said quote of them fleeing from his wrath. The only time I recall Glorfindel meeting all nine Nazgul was when they were chasing Frodo and were "power-limited" (so to speak) at the time. Also, the nazgul could still kill the Eldar. Glorfindel was not foolish, yet with any situation that could be fatal he was wary. Glorfindel was powerful, but I believe he'd be quite hindered if a sword was stuck in his stomach.

Originally Posted by obloquy

What Eowyn did not fear was death. She did not confront the Witch-King because she fearlessly felt she could defeat him; she merely stood her ground and defended her king in the face of certain death. Since she was only human, I promise you she felt that fear that came with the Nazgul. But she stood up to it.

Eowyn did not fear death, however the book shows no specific detail of a fear of the Witch-King. To defy him as she did and even threaten him if he harmed Theoden shows a very, very remote fear at best, one which would not grant "great power." Eowyn, in her bravery, still had her shield shattered and her arm broken in one blow.

Originally Posted by obloquy

All of the qualifications you people require really get tiresome. Tolkien frequently spoke of the "greatest" of this or that group without restricting his definition to one or two "skills" ("bow-hunting skills, 'numchuck' skills, computer hacking skills..."). Tolkien doesn't say that when he referred to Galadriel as one of the greatest two Noldor it was because of her wisdom. That is an assumption that you made, likely because of some prejudice towards women. Somehow I doubt that you put some silly qualifications on Feanor's greatness (which is parallel to Galadriel's); surely he was not only wise but also mighty in battle.

I have no prejudice towards women, and do not accuse me of having one. The great actions of Galadriel were those of governing and wisdom. While she may have been in the ranks of the athletes of Valinor, the elves of Middle-Earth diminished over time, so it is likely Galadriel wasn't as high as she used to be by the Third Age. Also, seeing as how Middle-Earth had part of the sexist roles of old England, Galadriel likely wasn't encouraged by those around her to be an expert at combat and to roam the land and climb mountains and whatnot. That could add to physical diminishing as well.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Really? Can I see some textual support for that? Because it would sure be ironic if the mightiest being in Middle-earth was scared of going toe-to-toe with the laughably overconfident Witch-King. What I see in the book is a daddy telling a neighborhood bully to get lost--and he obeys.

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

"Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you," said Denethor. "For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?" Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. "It might be so," Gandalf answered softly.

Gandalf's attitude against having to go up against the Witch-King was not one of "Don't worry, it's fine." His attitude was more along the lines of "I don't know if he's better than me or not, but I'm the only one who stands a chance." Gandalf stood up against the Witch-King at the gate because he was brave and he was the only person in the whole city who stood any chance of beating the Morgul Lord. The Witch-King showed no fear of Gandalf, and Gandalf seemed to not have any exploitable fear of the Witch-King. In all regards, the book portrayed them as equals, one good and one evil, at that moment. The reason the Witch-King left was not that he was afraid of Gandalf, he left because Rohan arrived and he had an army to save. Gandalf wanted to chase after the Witch-King because he thought he was the only one who stood a chance at beating the Witch-King. He wasn't certain, but he had to try regardless. (Gandalf's statement of returning to "guard the hurt men that can yet be healed" was in regards to Denethor asking if Gandalf only returned to bring bad news.

Originally Posted by obloquy

WROOOONNNGGGGGGGGG again. Produce a quote that says that Sauron was the greatest of the Maiar (yeah, that's Maiar).

The quote is everywhere and I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it. From the smallest sites to the Encyclopedia of Arda, it's quoted that Sauron is the greatest everywhere. If I wasn't about to go out to dinner, I would provide the quote myself. Also, don't rag on me for saying Maia instead of Maiar. Maia is a well-accepted abbreviation for Maiar, and if I'm not mistaken the word Maia was in the writings of Tolkien himself.

Originally Posted by obloquy

At which point in Morgoth's existence it is no longer a surprising feat.

All the more proof showing that Morgoth's rank did not grant him a large advantage. In a fight, ranks can quickly become no more than fancy names.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Also, don't rag on me for saying Maia instead of Maiar. Maia is a well-accepted abbreviation for Maiar, and if I'm not mistaken the word Maia was in the writings of Tolkien himself.

Obloquy isn't quibbling about the word Maia itself- he's quibbling about your usage of it.

Maiar is the plural.

Maia is the singular.

In the form you used it, it should have been the plural: Maiar.

'tis foolishly pedantic, I agree, to the point of rudeness, but technically correct.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

A nazgul could and would kill you at their first opportunity as well. You don't have to be greatly afraid of cars to be killed by one. A car lover (no fear at all) could get run over.

I understand your analogy, but it's not apt. You're saying that someone can get killed by something they do not fear. That is true. The reason people do not fear cars, however, is because a car is not your enemy and would not kill you of its own volition. (A more appropriate parallel to a car is a sword: it does not inspire fear of itself, but when wielded as a weapon by an enemy, it can effect that enemy's harmful will.) The Nazgul would take every available opportunity to kill Eldar if they had the power to do so; therefore, if the Nazgul had any power over the Eldar, the Eldar would be foolish not to fear them.

The nazgul did not rely on fear alone.

Once again, we're not talking about that supernatural fear that the Nazgul used to wither weak-spirited enemies. We're talking about any rational fear at all that might come from confronting a more powerful enemy than oneself. Glorfindel is not counted among the greatest of the Eldar, yet he slew a Balrog himself and openly confronted all Nine Ulairi. Not only that, but many years earlier, this same Glorfindel had been the one to put the Witch-King to flight after his kingdom had been utterly destroyed.

I'm not claiming that the Eldar were invincible. My claim is that in any confrontation involving Eldar and Nazgul, without the additional factor of overwhelming armies, the Eldar would not be threatened. In fact, the Nazgul would not be likely to stick around.

Please provide the said quote of them fleeing from his wrath. The only time I recall Glorfindel meeting all nine Nazgul was when they were chasing Frodo and were "power-limited" (so to speak) at the time.

Power limited? How so? It's true that the Nazgul were focused on Frodo and their mission, and you're right that they do have killing power, and Glorfindel was not invincible. Gandalf tells us that even Glorfindel and Aragorn, on foot could not withstand all nine Nazgul. Then he says:

Caught between fire and water, and seeing an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath, they were dismayed, and their horses were stricken with madness.

Also:

the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

and

Appendix A: (after the Witch-King's army had been defeated and the Witch-King had rode against Earnur, whose horse fled from him in fear, which cracked up the W-K) But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-King turned to flight and passed into the shadows.

Apart from all of this, we know that the Eldar are inherently greater beings than even the Numenoreans. The Nazgul are merely Men.

Glorfindel was not foolish, yet with any situation that could be fatal he was wary.

I'll grant that; it furthers my point: Glorfindel was not wary when confronting the Witch-King in the account from Appendix A, so we can assume he had nothing to fear.

Glorfindel was powerful, but I believe he'd be quite hindered if a sword was stuck in his stomach.

Sure, if he started a fight that way. The whole point is that the Nazgul could not get the sword there in the first place. The Balrog wasn't able to, and we know for certain that they're mightier than any Nazgul.

Eowyn did not fear death, however the book shows no specific detail of a fear of the Witch-King. To defy him as she did and even threaten him if he harmed Theoden shows a very, very remote fear at best, one which would not grant "great power." Eowyn, in her bravery, still had her shield shattered and her arm broken in one blow.

The fear the Nazgul projected was supernatural, and Eowyn was not immune to it.

I have no prejudice towards women, and do not accuse me of having one. The great actions of Galadriel were those of governing and wisdom.

You're expressing your prejudice right there. As I pointed out before, Galadriel's greatness was never qualified the way you have qualified it. She was greatest of the Noldor, and among the three greatest of the Eldar. There's no reason, apart from some preconceived notion of her position or abilities, to assume that she was not a mighty warrior in the manner of all other "great" Noldor.

The rest of your comments, particularly about gender roles in England, are bogus and not even worth responding to.

Gandalf's attitude against having to go up against the Witch-King was not one of "Don't worry, it's fine."

He was confident enough to be dishing out orders. The Witch-King obeyed.

His attitude was more along the lines of "I don't know if he's better than me or not, but I'm the only one who stands a chance."

I'll be looking forward to your textual support for this.

The Witch-King showed no fear of Gandalf, and Gandalf seemed to not have any exploitable fear of the Witch-King.

Except that when Gandalf told him to bug off, he bugged off.

In all regards, the book portrayed them as equals, one good and one evil, at that moment.

No it didn't.

The reason the Witch-King left was not that he was afraid of Gandalf, he left because Rohan arrived and he had an army to save.

Gandalf was the backbone of the Alliance. If he had fallen, it would have been a crippling blow. If the Witch-King had any chance of defeating Gandalf on the spot, he would have taken it. Gandalf slew the Balrog while observing limitations on his power. The Balrog was immensely more powerful than the Witch-King. Gandalf came back from that battle enhanced. Do you follow? Here's another line of reasoning: Sauron and Gandalf were approximately equal (look elsewhere on the forum for my discussion of this topic), Sauron was far superior to his Lieutenant, therefore Gandalf was obviously mightier than the Witch-King.

The quote is everywhere and I'm surprised that you haven't heard of it. From the smallest sites to the Encyclopedia of Arda, it's quoted that Sauron is the greatest everywhere.

Show me.

If I wasn't about to go out to dinner, I would provide the quote myself.

Haha! Nice.

Also, don't rag on me for saying Maia instead of Maiar. Maia is a well-accepted abbreviation for Maiar, and if I'm not mistaken the word Maia was in the writings of Tolkien himself.

Once again, Nice. Abbreviation? Like "cat" is an abbreviation of "cats."

AND I believe that it is stated in either the silmarillion or unfinished tales that Galadriel fought bitterly in the defense of Alqualonde.

[Angry Hill Troll]

I think a hint as to what would have happened in a duel between the Witch-king and Galadriel can be found in the the following passage. If I remember correctly, two of the Nazgul, including Khamul, the WK's second in command, led the attack on Lorien from Dol Guldur.

Three times Lorien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valor of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself.

If an army led by two Nazgul couldn't overcome Galadriel's power, I don't see how the Witch-king could have either.

As for Gandalf, recall that at Amon Sul, he fought off all nine of the Nazgul together, and even then they waited till after nightfall to face him. And that was before his powers were upgraded following his duel with the Balrog. So I don't think the Witch-king would have had any better luck against Gandalf single-handedly at Minas Tirith.

Peter Jackson's misleading portrayal notwithstanding, the reason that Gandalf didn't fight the Witch-king wasn't his inability to do so. Rather, if he were to openly fight the Witch-king, his supernatural abilities would become apparent. Even though he was permitted to use them a little more openly, he didn't want to do so unless absolutely necessary.

Fortunately, events conspired (through Eru's grace?) to prevent this from happening. First, the Rohirrim showed up in the nick of time, and the Witch-king had other matter to attend to. Then Pippin convinces Gandalf that he must intervene to save Faramir, and by the time that situation is resolved, the Witch-king is no more.