Lord of the Rings, rated PGP

[Elianna]

Rath Dinen runs on behind the Citadel, closer to the mountain than the Citadal.

[Mithalwen]

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed... so much so that if I were a horse, there would be a stewards enquiry.....

[Lalwendë]

It might depend upon whether he was combusting himself, rather than just his robes burning. If so he could stay alight for quite some time. Though he wouldn't be running anywhere, so that renders the argument incorrect. *scratches chin* Maybe there was another ring bestowing powers of invisibility and a small platoon of leprechauns were carrying him thither? Or perhaps one of the Fell Beasts picked him up and carried him there - that could be true because it was hopping from foot to foot when the Witch King confronted Gandalf, as though it had burned its toes.

By the same token - why do they have that big open gap in the walls of the top level of Minas Tirith? It serves no purpose apart from to make it easier for Denethor to do his diving act. It would have been much better if he'd actually tripped over a little low wall in his flammable frenzy. Even better if he'd slipped on a banana skin dropped by Pippin. Well, it was a comedy moment as it was, so why didn't they add a bit more humour?

[Nukapei]

Yeah, that part was a little unrealistic. The book version was much better, and more believable -- in it, he just burned.

[Neurion]

Here's a good one: Boromir takes three arrows, shot from a longbow by Lurtz, a huge Uruk, at about a hundred yards, while wearing (presumably) only a mail-shirt for protection, and does not even fall over for a couple of minutes, yet in RotK, the fully-armored sentry at Osgilliath is hit by one arrow, from by the shortbow of a little runt of an orc at something like three hundred yards, at around a 45 degree angle, and it not only goes straight through the most heavily sloped part of his breastplate but knocks him right off his feet. Bad. Really bad.

[Lalwendë]

In fact, referring to the books, it appears that Boromir did not even have a mail-shirt:

The Company took little gear of war, for their hope was in secrecy not in battle. Aragorn had Anduril but no other weapon, and he went forth clad only in rusty green and brown, as a ranger of the wilderness. Boromir had a long sword, in fashion like Anduril but of less lineage, and he bore also a shield and his war-horn.

Gimli the dwarf alone wore openly a short shirt of steel-rings, for dwarves make light of burdens

But then I often find when I'm watching the films that I see incidents where a man ought to have died but did not, or vice versa, in battle. Surely the fight arrangers are just as pedantic as anyone in knowing about such things, so it does surprise me a little.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Oh, goody! A thread on physics in Middle Earth! Just for jollies, I thought I'd add a link or two for those of you (like me) who have thought about such things before and sought out those more expert than ourselves (at least more expert than me!). TOR.net has a section entitled "Green Books," which contains an ongoing series called "The Science of Middle Earth," which is also being released as a book on Amazon.com here: The Science of Middle Earth
Articles on TOR.net include:
Introduction
What do your Elf-eyes see?
Notion Club Papers
Mithril
Fëanor's Laboratory
Yet Another Take on Balrog Wings
How Tall IS a Mallorn Tree?
My favorite bit in these articles must be the postulation that the palantiri are made of an alternating layered structure of lithium niobate and beta carbon nitride in order to lend it holographic properties and adequate hardness. What fun!

As for the stairs up to the top of Orthanc, wouldn't a well hidden trap door be enough; after all, Dwarf doors can be made invisible, so why not Numenorean doors?
As for Gimli-throwing, I'd think he would go pretty far, as he is short AND heavy, thus being built more like a cannonball than any of the other members of the Fellowship. I guess Aragorn would just have to give him a good initial trajectory and then the physics of ballistic motion would take over. (I may have enjoyed physics, but I can't remember the equation anymore!)

Plus, if we postulate that Legolas' arrow could have reached the level of the top of Orthanc, would it come down straight? If I'm not mistaken, wouldn't a long weighted object turn end over end as it traveled through the air? This, of course, doesn't rule out it having sufficient gravitational impetus to make disposition of Grima, but it does seem unlikely to me. However, a bullet fired in the air could easily accomplish this task and has (I read a news story of an unfortunate man in my area who fired a pistol in the air and was struck by his own bullet coming back down. What bad luck!) All that aside, I think Orli-Legolas should have kept his arrow in the quiver and not engaged in such reprehensible, if picturesque, behavior anyway!

Cheers!
Lyta

[Assasin]

I think the arrow would do whatever Tolkien wanted it to do, he's the puppet master. I also want to know why didn't Aragorn die when he fell over the cliff thing? And I know elves are like, really perfect, and everything, but how could Leggy "surf" down the steps? My sister tried to do that. Bozo. Lord of the rings is potentially harmful for the stupid people who try to do the elf stunts. I also want to know why Arwen didn't get hit by the massive flow of "Horse Water" in FOTR. I hear Liv fell of the horse a number of times! Hee hee!

[Nukapei]

The problem is that a lot of those instances are in the movies and not the books. For example, Aragorn has no problems with "dying" on the way to Helm's Deep, Leggy never "surfs" down a flight of stairs, Arwen wasn't even near the fords when the "horse waters" came (it was just Frodo, and he was on the far bank), etc. The rest is pure physics!

As for your sister trying out the "surfing" stunt . . . that's kind of unfair to blame the movies for that. That's like saying no movie should have any stunt because people might want to copy them. People just need to have the common sense to understand that that is a movie, this is real life. Yeah, surfing down a flight of stairs isn't realistic, but neither is Elves doing it!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Assasin

And I know elves are like, really perfect, and everything, but how could Leggy "surf" down the steps? My sister tried to do that. Bozo. Lord of the rings is potentially harmful for the stupid people who try to do the elf stunts.

Careful, you'll have people wanting LotR 'banned' because it could be potentially harmful, especially in this litigious culture that even bans games of conkers for fear of lawsuits! I just hope your sister never watches anything by Johnny Knoxville then.

I think the whole 'surfing on a shield' thing would have been feasible. I spent many a happy hour as a child bombing down the stairs in my friend's house, perched on a tea tray 'sled'. Alas our games eventually came to an end when her father decided to take a turn at this and ended up in hospital. Though I'm quite sure an Elf would be far more agile than a lorry driver with a back complaint

[Assasin]

Ok, maybe it was just my sisters stupidity. And, Nukapei, I was talking about the movies, I usually refer to the movies, because I haven't read the books in a while. Maybe I'll read them this week.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In fact, referring to the books, it appears that Boromir did not even have a mail-shirt.

In the books it was said that the only visible armour Boromir had was a steel collar, but I refer to the films.

BTW, anyone else notice that in the films the armoured characters seem to do significantly worse than the unarmoured ones?

[Shelob]

In ROTK the catupluts/trebuchets shouldn't work (as my brother insists on screaming every time he watches it ). The projectiles from the trebuchets in Gondor should either, when they land, make craters of some size in the ground (instead of kicking up a handful of dirt) or roll. Similarly the projectiles from the orc catupults shouldn't follow the trajectories that they do (my brother insists that they shouldn't even work, but since I'm not sure about that I'll just go with they shouldn't fire the way they do).

As a whole the orc catupults don't bother me, but the trebuchet projectiles do (Gothmog should not have been able to move three inches and survive! )

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Shelob

In ROTK the catupluts/trebuchets shouldn't work (as my brother insists on screaming every time he watches it ). The projectiles from the trebuchets in Gondor should either, when they land, make craters of some size in the ground (instead of kicking up a handful of dirt) or roll. Similarly the projectiles from the orc catupults shouldn't follow the trajectories that they do (my brother insists that they shouldn't even work, but since I'm not sure about that I'll just go with they shouldn't fire the way they do).

As a whole the orc catupults don't bother me, but the trebuchet projectiles do (Gothmog should not have been able to move three inches and survive! )

As well, the Gondorian stuctures should not crumble like a stack of bricks on getting hit by the orcs' Mangonel stones.

[The Saucepan Man]

As well, the Gondorian stuctures should not crumble like a stack of bricks on getting hit by the orcs' Mangonel stones.

Nor really were they the best places for those Gondorian citizens to be milling around.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Nor really were they the best places for those Gondorian citizens to be milling around.

Well that was just another chance for PJ to get his bug eyed brood on screen......


When Boromir died I thought it was interesting how the arrows rearranged themselves....... almost zs interesting as how his hair frizzed and defrizzed in the trying to take the ring from Frodo scene .... but mainly I thought it was unlucky that he lugged that massive shield all around Middle Earth and the one moment it would have been really useful.......

[Faramir]

u guys its fantasy anything can happen...aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?
(im not trying to be rude)

[Nukapei]

Yeah, but fantasy's just another reality. Elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. don't exist, but if they did than LotR would be totally possible. At least, that's the idea! It's fun to post things here that we think go against that idea, then have others either add to it or dispute it.

[Encaitare]

aragorn cant toss gimli but there can be ten thousand orcs 20 feet away from them? gandalf cant catch his sword because of gravity but he can ride a demon? gollum cant burn slowly in mount doom but he can be that kind of a "creature" ?

Yes.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Well, when your fall is more than a certain height (100 ft, I think, though I may be pulling that number from thin air), unless you land juuuuust right, water is as hard as concrete. And I didn't exactly see him and the Balrog stop fighting long enough to make sure they hit the water right! Think about it in terms of the hardest bellyflop in recorded history. They'd snap their spine!

You've got a much higher chance of surviving a fall if a large object falls first and breaks the surface tension on the water before you hit it. It's roughly the same principle as the prow of a boat... only going down and not forward.

Hmm... I wonder what Gandalf could have thrown off the bridge that would hit the water first?

*envisions Istar using large firey (wingless) shield*

Sophia

[Nukapei]

lol! Good point!

[Lathriel]

About Legolas walking on the snow, it even says in the books that he can do that. It's an elvish thing.

Here is another thing. the lighting of the beacons. Do those people live up there in the mountains where a blizzard can easily destroy those miserable huts? Is it a family tradition to keep the holy matches dry in case the beacons need to be lit?
Maybe its tradition to mourn at the guy's funeral not only because he is dead but also because he didn't get a chance to light the beacons!

On the side of mount Doom, where were the gasmasks that Frodo and sam needed.
However when my dad talks about this I always tell him A. It's a movie. B. It's middle-earth

[Assasin]

Science doesn't affect people in Middle Earth.

[Encaitare]

Science doesn't affect people in Middle Earth.

It does to some extent. Sure, some things which our science can't explain occur in Middle-earth, but to their science, it's completely logical. For example, the Mirror of Galadriel shouldn't work according to our ideas of what can and can't be real, but to the Elves it's just a form of technology.

And of course certain basic principles apply, such as gravity -- thankfully!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Assasin

Science doesn't affect people in Middle Earth.

I appreciate waht you mean Assasin. When it is suggested, for example, that Anglachel (Turin's sword) could never really have spoken, I am the first to say that, in a world of Hobbits, Elves and Palantirs, swords can speak.

But Middle-earth has to have an internal consistency. It has to work according to its own "scientific" laws, otherwise it would not be credible. Admittedly, we can never know the full extent of those laws (just like we are unlikely ever to know the full extent of those within our own world), but I think that we can instinctively tell if something is "not right". So, while I can accept that Legolas can walk on snow, I would find it a little bit strange if Pippin suddenly started flying - unless an internally credible explanation was given as to why he was able to do so.

[Nukapei]

Good way to explain it, SPM! Yes, the basic rules of physics must apply. And, if they're broken, a reason must be given. Like you said, Legolas never would be able to walk on snow in our world; but in Middle-earth, it's just a property of the Elf species, just as much as walking upright is for real humans, or breathing through gills is for a salmon. And Galadriel's mirror, as well as other forms of "magic" such as the palantiri and magic doors, etc., are just forms of technology. Otherwise, again like SPM said, the whole story wouldn't be believable. However, these "rule-breaking" incidences give the story an air of fantasism and other-worldliness that it wouldn't have otherwise. And that's why we love it so much -- it's an escape from reality!

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

And that's why we love it so much -- it's an escape from reality!

Not quite. A mirror of reality would be more accurate.

[Assasin]

Bleh, who cares? Who cares about science in Middle Earth when it can't be explained? Do we just like to dwell on it, wondering about the unexplainable things in life?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Assasin

Bleh, who cares? Who cares about science in Middle Earth when it can't be explained? Do we just like to dwell on it, wondering about the unexplainable things in life?

I care! Mainly because I am one of those people who likes to 'figure things out' (and sometimes inadvertently breaks things in that same quest to figure things out ). I like this kind of thought as it leads me down other interesting paths - as an example, looking at the links between Saruman and Newton.

I see what you might mean though. Are you talking about the magic in Middle Earth? That sometimes we ought not to try and explain things and simply leave them as purely magical occurences? If so, then I can appreciate that point; sometimes its better not to try and explain everything.

[Essex]

Because gravity is an acceleration, not velocity, the longer you fall the faster you go.

only until you reach Terminal Velocity. (hey, that sounds like a great name for a film, doesn't it?)

PS, regarding gravity (which seems to be the main problem on this thread),

And of course certain basic principles apply, such as gravity -- thankfully!

who says middle-earth had the same gravity as our Earth? (yes, before you say it, I've heard it's meant to be Earth 10,000 years or so ago......) In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

PPS re the beacons

those people live up there in the mountains where a blizzard can easily destroy those miserable huts?

This actually IS based on fact.

[Assasin]

Yes, Lalwende, that's exactly what I mean. Fantasy magic is really hard to understand.

[Elianna]

Originally Posted by Essex

In a world where the elves only lived in starlight for a while, in a world where you can make someone invisible with a magic ring, in a world where some can have immortality, in a world that was once straight and now bent, in a world where you can get on a ship and travel away form the mortal coil, why can't we have Legolas shooting an arrow up at grima and hit him perfectly?

Because as long as Middle-Earth has about the same radius as present Earth does and about the same mass, it would have the same gravitational acceleration. I doubt these things have changed about our Earth even in 10,000 yrs.

(And because I heart Gríma and do not wish to see him die needlessly at the hands of pretty-boy prince Orli.)

[AragornII]

Another thing about the Balrog and Gandalf. I have a book called The Complete Tolkien Companion, and it says that Balrogs were "spirits of fire" and that they of great size, "enshrouded in flame". So my question is how does Gandalf land on the Balrog if the Balrog is made of fire. Wouldn't he just burn up?
Also, I'm not too knowledgeable in physics, but would the sword really make a humming noise as it fell?

[Encaitare]

who says middle-earth had the same gravity as our Earth?

I meant merely that Middle-earth has gravity.

(And because I heart Gríma and do not wish to see him die needlessly at the hands of pretty-boy prince Orli.)

I share in your plight, Elianna. Oh well.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

The only problem with any quibbling about something to do with Elves, Wizards, or others of that ilk is that we don't know what they're capable of.

They aren't human.

They are, quite obviously, endowed with superhuman resources.

Gandalf, for instance, in his fall with the Balrog, is engaged in a titanic Maia-vs.-Maia battle in which he would seem to be free from at least some of the constraints of having taken on human form. Besides which, we have NO way of knowing exactly what Gandalf's magic is capable of, whether or not he NEEDS his staff to work it, or even whether or not Narya could have affected things.

As for the Balrog, considering that he's NOT bound to the form of a man, nor does he seem to be made of normal materials, and the fact that he's a superhuman demon, I personally don't think that its all that improbable for him to hit bottom un-killed.

Aren't the Istari unallowed to show off their powers by the command of the Valar? So, how did Gandalf and Saruman used their staffs in pulling away each other?

Actually, by the laws of physics, there's no stuff that can do that [the magnet's a different story], and I doubt if there is enough iron in/on those guys if their staffs were really electromagnets...

I may be the worst in physics and chemistry, but I do have enough wits that got moi landed as a city scholar.

Guess I better ask the science freaks at school...

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Mind you if I was doing a fine impersonation of the final moments of Joan of Arc I might show a suprising turn of speed...

Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

[Nukapei]

Originally Posted by Neurion

Actually, the construction of the medieval pyre ensured that the condemmed almost inevitably succumbed to smoke inhalation long before the flames reached their bodies.

Hmmm, didn't know that. Awful decent of them, wasn't it?

PS ~ that was sarcasm, folks.

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Nukapei

Hmmm, didn't know that. Awful decent of them, wasn't it?

PS ~ that was sarcasm, folks.

A lot less painfull than being gibbeted, boiled, broken on the wheel or hung drawn and quartered IMHO.

[Lathriel]

They made it so pleasant in those days. (Shiver)

Anyway magic is probably some differnt kind of physics with different rules (Obviously)

[Neurion]

Originally Posted by Lathriel

They made it so pleasant in those days. (Shiver)

Speaking in terms of sheer numbers killed, one would think it safe to say our predecessors were somewhat more civilized than their 20th century descendants.