WWLXII: Dead Men Do Tell Tales

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Kath

Is anyone apart from me at risk from modfire toDay by the way?

Gwath is as well.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

In case anyone wants to lynch a ghost toDay, here's a list:

Known non-wolves (Night-killed)
A Little Green (claimed Protector)
Eomer
Rikae (Avenger) – only ghost whose role is definitely known

Unknown (Lynched/mod-fired/hunted)
McCaber
Mira
Annu
Wilwa
Sally
Nogrod

EDIT: X'd with Zil.

Greenie claimed Seer. Not Protector.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't get why Shasta continues advocating re-lynching Greenie after it was explained by several people how silly it'd be.

Oh? Really, Lommy? Is that what happened?

(Beg pardon, I'm in an extremely vile mood today.)

[Mithalwen]

Sorry this is bewildering me but with the strong possibility of modfire... I don't normally aim for cobblers but given how uncertain things are..it seems that Issy is not on the side of the angels the rest of you are too confusing. With things so tight losing a conspirator will at least prevent a pro-agressor vote

++Isabellkya

[Kath]

So, the Day I missed entirely! A missed kill is odd. I don't think I've ever been in a game in which wolves have deliberately forgone a kill as someone mentioned. I think you'd have to have some very bold wolves to try that one. So I would guess either timezone based communication problems or an absent wolf was the cause there.

Inzil - begins by 'explaining not defending' his vote. It seems tone was a prevailing factor and I can see that. You have to remember sometimes just how people 'speak'. Rikae, Gwath, some others have quite an aggressive style that can sometimes cause over the top reactions from others.

sally - suggests wilwa might have been the kill anyway. Seems unlikely. The wolves surely want to kill as many as possible. If they knew wilwa was going to be killed why would they have gone for her? Or was wilwa a last minute pull out?

Eonwe - seems to agree with sally. Pretty much exactly actually. And then says nothing has happened. Oh I'm sure you could have found SOMEthing to comment on Eonwe? Does say Nerwen could potentially be a cobbler. Quite a few people coming to that conclusion it seems.

Lommy - ah it was her that suggested the apparent missed kill was deliberate. Also gets a little bit 'meta' in that it does become easy to suspect those who weren't around if you think it was a missed kill. Says Boro and Mac are just assuming that they 'know' the Hunter's picks, seems to find Mac more suspicious. Lots of reasoning for suspecting Mac. At least some people are putting their reasoning in!

Mac - suspicious of Gwath and Inzy but not much in the way of reasoning. Suspicion of Izzy but again no reasoning.

Boro - suggests it might be worth double killing since the wolves missed a trick. I'm not sure what he's trying to get at here. He says that the wolves have been killing their 'cover' as in the quiet players and so we might want to double lynch a quiet player to learn if one of them was a wolf I think, but I'd have thought that if the wolves were lynching quiet players they're more likely to be loudmouths because their 'cover' would actually be the louder players.

Rikae - ah my if she hadn't been shown to be the Hunter I would be suspicious of her! Now she's suggesting double killing after that utter refusal to consider it before. All out for slips toDay, she found a possible one from Lommy there, think Lommy just phrased it badly though.

Nerwen - says if the kill was deliberately missed then either sally, Gwath or Lommy is a wolf because they'd have considered killing her too much a risk. Fine, but then why wouldn't they have just killed someone else?

Mith - huh, really haven't heard much from Mith. Would assume she's a busy innocent as I've not noticed anything to make me think otherwise.

Shasta - this time actually does advocate a double kill! Hmm, says he agrees with Lommy but I think Lommy was *headdesking* by this point about people assuming wilwa was innocent so she might not have appreciated it.

Izzy - votes herself, apparently in annoyance. This I think could definitely be a cobbler tactic.

Waaaait one second - we DON'T know Rikae was the Hunter? I just read the narration and from it and Brinn's little note could it maybe have been the other way round? Well ... well that just changes everything! Ugh and I thought this couldn't get any more confusing. Right, I'm going to assume it was Rikae. Just because the thought of going back over all of yesterDay again fills me with dread.

Going on to toDay now.

PS: As for no mutineers and it all being a dirty trick? lmp has copyright on that from the original ATM RPG.

[Mithalwen]

or they are dead ala Fea's game where she kept us in the dark...

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

A possible slip, anyway. Not quite on the order of, say, Agan's last game... but I'd certainly be interested to hear Sally's explanation.

Interesting that you should use that as an example, since I was killed by a Nerwen-led wolf pack. I'm just saying.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

As well as looking at those who do not post very frequently, we should look at those who have been away (like Nogrod). And this all verges on the edge of what is fair play and what is playing on out-of-game reasons (it would be easy to start checking who has posted on the 'Downs during the Night phase etc).

Besides, it can also be misleading. Imagine I - a rather active player who was online on the 'Downs yesterday - was a mutineer. The deadline happens to be 7am my time. Imagine my fellows are Americans who have their most active hours after I go to bed in the evening. What do I do? Probably send my suggestions on who to kill to my mates before I go to sleep and trust them to send the kill to the mod. They are all so called not-so-frequently posting people and they miss the kill (say, one is dead, one appears a few hours before the DL, sees the last one hasn't posted, sends a PM and leaves it up to them, and they don't turn up at all because of some unexpected hindrances). Now, by your logic, it would easy to say that I'm not likely someone to miss the kill, although it is exactly what happened in this example scenario. So, summa summarum, no use making hasty conclusions.


Excuse me, gentlemen, but just how on earth do you expect the mutineers to know Rikae's pick?

Mac, you expect the mutineers to have reached the same conclusion about Rikae's possible picks and furthermore, you expect your guesses to be correct. Ever heard of a bluffing hunter? You think too simply for me to be comfortable with you. And you assuming the mutineers to think like you looks like your pack had a nice chat last Night.

Boro - what on earth do you think we gain from knowing whom Rikae really hunted? The mutineers didn't know it either. Whether Rikae really hunted me or just threatened to wouldn't have affected their choice of action, because they had no way of knowing whom Rikae hunted. It doesn't incriminate me any more if Rikae really hunted me or not, what matters is that she threatened to. But there's no way a mutineer-me would have known whether she was bluffing or not, or a mutineer-anyone else would have known it. So, in short, the mutineers couldn't have just acted blindly on the assumption that Rikae hunted me, nor could they have chosen to attack or not attack her based on whom she hunted because they didn't know it.

Huh, you two confuse me.


edit: xed with Rikae

Liked Lommie's thoughts here on the 'quiet people miss the kill' theory. Besides, even the loudest people can miss a kill. Or it could be like the most recent game in which I was a wolf (Lommie's, to be exact) and someone didn't want to send in a kill without checking it over with their mates.

Also, I want to know the same thing; why do people assume that the wolfiekinses could channel Rikae's brain or something? Unless it's Mac that we're talking about, and even then it'd be sketchy.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I thought Rikae was pretty serious it would be sally if she was lynched, and you at night, considering the circumstances she was in and the threat of being lynched. Of course she could have been bluffing the night selection and the mutineers would have no way of knowing who she was really hunting, but if they feared one of their own was someone being hunted they wouldn't want to kill her. If they thought she was hunting an innocent they would. Simple as that.

I took who she said she was going to hunt as not a bluff, and well...maybe the mutineers did too.

It wouldn't be the first time that none of us were...our Cap'n might enjoy watching the loudmouths lynch off eachother after tension builds and the first few days. If you feel I'm innocent, than trust it, don't let your feelings that it's "illogical" that none of the loudmouths are wolves to cloud your judgement of who you feel is innocent or not.

But look at the night kills...Greenie and Eomer, two players who are thoughtful voters, but were less active on this ship. Why wouldn't they kill off the loudmouths, why would they kill off their cover? And look at our lynches...McCaber, Mira, and Annu...how successful have we been? I don't know, maybe the time is right to check one of them. We could end up with some real information if we lynch one of those 3 again.

This will get me in trouble, but I don't care at this point...I wouldn't have passed up a night kill. I would have thought that would exonerate me completely.

But, I should say Lommy, your last post looks pretty innocent because it is so flippy-floppy . If that makes any sense. I could tear it apart for all the inconsistencies in there, but that actually makes you look better.

I'm oddly concerned by all this theorizing about why the wolfies killed Rikae. She lied about her picks so it's conceivable that the wolves picked up on it and knew that she wouldn't be hunting who she said she was. She is Rikae after all.

I dunno about the quiet killing off the loud being so unbelievable either. Isn't that more or less what happened in Gollum's game?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Even if Gwath or Sally is a mutineer? They might have considered it too much of a risk. They couldn't have known for sure who Rikae would pick.

I think it's safe to say that if the baddies failed to send in the kill on purpose, it would mean at least one of those three (Gwath, Lommy & Sally) is probably guilty.

EDIT: X'd since Boro at #450; clarification.

Erm, I think I should be insulted at this, but I'm not sure. So since the baddies forgot to send in a kill Lommie, Gwath, and/or I must be guilty? That makes no sense. I've never missed a kill, ever; I usually try to wait for confirmation that the kill's been sent or I send it myself. This really looks like Nerwen trying to start trouble for the three of us without anything to base it on.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Actually, I was hunting Kath yesterDay. I just wanted to see how people would react to a Sally-kill.

Hmm. I don't really like the way you latch on to the idea that none of us are evil - shows an awful lot of certainty wrt Mac, Nog, etc.

I'd rather lynch Gwath toDay, and try the double-lynch toMorrow.

One reason not to kill anyone... it's been done before.

This isn't really admissable since there's no double lynch, but this is what I meant by lying about her picks; it's probably for the good of the village but people would expect her to be honestly dishonest. Know what I mean?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, at the risk of being Captain Obvious, it certainly looks as if it can't be Gwath and Sally.

Why Kath, though?

Well since I'm dead you know who to go after next then, don't you, precious?

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

or they are dead ala Fea's game where she kept us in the dark...

Heh, heh, I need to read that game again. That was flipping awesome.

[Boromir88]

Waaaait one second - we DON'T know Rikae was the Hunter? I just read the narration and from it and Brinn's little note could it maybe have been the other way round?~Kath

Plus Nogrod said he was an ordo...but that well I don't believe.

He says that the wolves have been killing their 'cover' as in the quiet players and so we might want to double lynch a quiet player to learn if one of them was a wolf I think, but I'd have thought that if the wolves were lynching quiet players they're more likely to be loudmouths because their 'cover' would actually be the louder players.

Let me explain the confusion...no that will take too long so I'll sum up

As far as double-killing anyone I gave a good amount of consideration to the people lynched (I'm not interested in those who were killed by the wolves, because I doubt they will turn up much benefit, we already know they aren't wolves, so what would be the point? All we could really try and figure out is why the wolves killed them and that would be difficult). So, I would consider any of the lynches (or avenger's kill - Nogrod), quiet or loud, for a double kill.

What I was trying to do, but I probably didn't phrase it well, was to start getting the "loudmouths" to be suspected, because we have already lynched several quieter pirates, and the wolf kills have been after the same. Except last night, with Rikae, but the wolves probably felt they had to get her out of sooner rather than later.

[satansaloser2005]

Rikae-->Gwath at 11:11am
Nerwen-->Gwath at 1:58pm
Mith-->Sally at 5:35pm
Lommie-->Sally at 6:27pm
Izzy-->Izzy at 6:30pm
Steve-->Sally at 6:46pm
Dun-->Sally at 7:08pm
Boro-->Gwath at 9:54pm
Mac-->Gwath at 10:14pm
Shasta-->Sally at 10:59pm
Sally-->Gwath at 11:00pm

Didn't vote: Kath, Gwath, Nog


Sorry it took me so long. Major multitasking.

[Kath]

And toDay.

I'm very confused about how Izzy acted right after narration. If she hadn't read it, why post anything about it? Why answer the other's questions if she didn't know the details?

Nerwen has a fair point that the wolves must have felt pretty confident that Rikae was wrong, not sure who that puts in a good light. Inzil? Izzy? Gwath?

Well Nog says he was innocent so Rikae was the Hunter. If he was the Hunter I think he would have revealed after death. Thinks her death may put Gwath in a good light. Suspicion of Lommy for being too happy and Inzil for following Lommy. Whatever Lommy is I think this makes Inzil look bad.

Lommy seems pretty focused on Mac. He knew she wouldn't pick him, says Lommy. I find this a pretty intense statement as it requires being certain of not just one persons mind but the minds of two people. I suppose though that once you feel certain of someone's guilt everthing points to them, I've certainly felt that in the past. I can't see why she brings up Shasta again. She asks why he continues to advocate Greenie's re-lynching but so far as I can see he hasn't mentioned it so far toDay. List post - seems to have Mac, me and Izzy down as evil. Ah Lommy misread Inzil's point as well, took me a few minutes to work it out!

Inzil - thinks Gwath more likely a cobbler than a wolf as he missed the vote. I don't know, Gwath is pretty well known for disappearing isn't he? Don't know if he's done it with a role though. Has Mac down as a wolf - reasoning? Oh I see. Guess that kind of makes sense. Unless Gwath was her choice for that Day and she had to change it before the Night? Could do with some clarification from Rikae herself on that front I guess.

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer? Can see your reasoning about the others but clearly missed that somewhere along the way. Thinks Gwath might be a mutineer.

Boro says Mac is jumping on him.

Seems Rikae did go for someone she thought would have no reason to fear her, so maybe the idea of those she did suspect looking slightly better holds some water.

sally has suspicion of me 'cause I'm still alive. Fair enough! I was mildly surprised but I guess I was passed over yesterDay for being ill, and that's when people usually start wanting to kill me.

About Gwath. If he doesn't turn up and he's going to be modfired, is this going to cause another huge argument about whether to just leave him to die or whether to lynch someone else ala Mira?

Shasta is going to get himself lynched if he doesn't tone himself down pretty quick. It is frustrating defending yourself over the same thing again and again but 'taking a tone' rarely helps!

Mith is going for Izzy - only thing is I don't recall seeing any explanation for suspicion there. I get why I'm suspicious of Izzy, and why others are, but I don't recall Mith mentioning any.

Caught up to the present now I think.

Hmm, going to have a think and then vote. Tis bedtime for me.

[Thinlómien]

++Macalaure

I'll be blunt. I want to vote before the bandwagons begin because of the simple reason that I feel that Mac is a mutineer and all the other mutineers know it and the cobblers guess it and they are just ignoring my case and I'm just fighting the windmills here... and if I vote late there will be no one to vote him with me. *shrugs*

My vote is liable to change if my case/research/whatever I'm going to do makes me think Mac is innocent after all.

Now, I'm off to comment everything that happened while I was away and then I'll make the long-awaited Mac-post.

[Kath]

Right, out of those who are still alive, thoughts.

So I think Nerwen and Izzy are likely to be our cobblers. Which makes me think Inzil is then more likely a wolf than a cobbler though I must say he does really strike me as more cobblerish. Nerwen can only be cobbler at worst so I guess I'd have to choose between Izzy and Inzil there.

I'll tell you who I'm worried about and that's Eonwe. Apart from me and Shasta (and I'm back now ) he's the only person who seems to really be keeping a low profile. Came on with not a thing to say at one point. I mean, come on, even Izzy who had failed to read the narration managed to find something.

Lommy I am pretty sure is innocent. The way she's speaking, the irrational surety, all smacks of a fixated innocent. Anyone remember Farael? Reminding me very much of him right now. Same with Mith, she isn't involved enough to be anything I don't think.

Which leaves me with Boro, Shasta, Mac and Gwath. I don't know what to do about Gwath. I am always tempted if we do have a modfire going on to vote for that person in order that we don't end up with two people dying on one Day. I for one have never really understood the suspicion around Shasta and still don't find him suspicious now so he won't get my vote.

I said before that the fighting between Boro and Mac was quite likely to mean one of them was a wolf. I don't know which. To be on the opposite side of the fence to Lommy, given that Rikae was suspicious of Mac before she was killed it would seem to put him in a better light. Yet Boro doesn't seem suspicious. I guess by elimination and by the fact that I do believe Mac might be a bold enough wolf to kill Rikae knowing he might go down with her I'd probably vote for him. That said, I am more inclined to vote Gwath because of the modfire.

Brinn are you around? Can you tell us what's happening about Gwath?

[Kath]

Well for me I think it's between Eonwe for sleeping under reindeer or whatever phrase we're using now, Mac because I think he's more likely a wolf than Boro, or Gwath not so much for a reason as there's been precious little to work with recently but because if he's going to be modfired then better only one person goes than two.

Hmm, I'm not confident that we've lynched enough wolves to be able to get away with more than one person dying toDay so:

++GWATH

And that's it from me.

[Isabellkya]

I'm not a Cobbler.

I've no qualms in claiming my role when I have one. If I was the type to fake-claim, I'd certainly have no qualms letting you all believe I was a Cobbler.

Interesting to see so many think I'm a Cobbler... because why?
I was "acting weird" or whatever?
News flash. Hasn't been the first time I've "acted weird", nor will be the last.

As I told Rikae. Most, if not all of the times someone(s) have called my lists "fabricated" - it is because they have nasty intentions. Once - I have fabricated a list. Guess what my role was that game - Ranger.

Nerwen. o.O I've made.. three posts before this one right here.
Rikae wasn't lynched - Sally was.

Interesting to see Sally be more active when a ghost, than before.

I also have no qualms saying what I want, and what I mean. I have nothing to hide.
If you have a question, it is preferable you ask me why I did what I did. Or do what I do.

Because no one can understand what I do, better than I. So taking an explanation from another person/party and accepting it as truth - is pretty darn ridiculous.


My first post - had nothing to do with the narration. Nor did I imply it did. I saw Nog dead - and then made my post. But question it all you want, you'll undoubtedly come to the very wrong conclusion.

What is this business about not posting anyways.
What, someone doesn't read the narration so they have no business posting?
Since when do the narrations hold ultimate guidance?


x'd with Kath.

[Thinlómien]

I think I'm mistaken about someone else, Kath seems pretty fine to me. *moves her from the "wary of" category to the "neutral" category*

Inzil - I got why Gwath is not a mutineer, but I still didn't get why he's a co-consp and not an ordo, for example.

Sally makes me wonder. Is she innocent after all since she's trying to help us, or is she just trying to play innocent? Gah. With all respect, Brinn, I hate this game.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Just a moment... "pretending to be sensible"?

Speaking in a reasonable tone but suggesting stupid stuff.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But no, I didn't suggest Greenie-lynch unless it would be a double-lynch - and Sally already corrected me with the "no double-lynch" -policies of the game. Go back and see for yourself. I said lynching ghosts is not the way to go unless they are double-lynches (regretably not an option I see now).

Okay I misunderstood then because it didn't occur to me you could mean traditional double-lynches with the word double-lynch since there aren't any in this game. And how many times do I have to repeat that lynching Greenie would be utter foolishness? We wouldn't gain anything except for a known innocent we semi-have already or get rid of a rather inactive dead cobbler AND we would reveal to the baddies whether the seer is still alive or not. Not wise at all.

Originally Posted by Sally to Rikae

By the way, why are you now green?

Oh but she's just a little green.

Originally Posted by Shasta whose vileness is pardoned ;)

Oh? Really, Lommy? Is that what happened?

Okay I read this as advocating lynching her (looks like you're still for lynching her later, or?)

Originally Posted by Shasta

There are, of course, pros and cons to any plan. In hindsight, maybe we should wait to lynch A Little Green Ghost if and until we have a competing Seer-claim. I just intensely dislike having no concrete information whatsoever on which to base any decision. The most concrete evidence right now that I can see is that it's possible someone who was inactive or not here for some reason might be responsible for last night's no kill, but that's really close to metagaming and makes me uncomfortable.

And I'm getting rather cranky because I feel we're losing this game and I can do nothing to change it... grrr Macalaure I'm going to reveal all your dirty secrets now!


xed with 2x Kath & 1x Izzie

[A Little Green]

It's well past bedtime for this little (green) ghost.. Just a few thoughts, however, before I go to sleep and leave you to vote.

Originally Posted by Kath

I don't know what to do about Gwath. I am always tempted if we do have a modfire going on to vote for that person in order that we don't end up with two people dying on one Day.

Honestly now, we (or rather, you) can't afford another Mira! If those pessimistic scenarios are true we really need to get a mutineer toDay. I can understand "abstaining" from a lynch by lynching someone who is going to be modfired anyway if the village (or ship, arr!) is on an early stage and there are no good cases against anyone else. This late in a game, however, I think an abstain is about the worst choice there is. If you are determined not to lynch anyone, at least lynch a ghost and get us some info. Lynching a modfirée ( what a word!) wins us nothing.

I think it might be wisest to actually try a good ol' lynch. Like Nogrod enjoys reminding us, it is the only weapon we have, and we have already wasted it once.

I had something else I wanted to say as well but forgot it.

[A Little Green]

Lommy's Mac obsession looks like a fanatic innocent. Izzy is acting more cobblerish than ever. Mith seems ok.

Sally puzzles me a lot. Something in her tone when she said "Double-lynching me would be a waste" or something like that seemed to me as if she actually wanted to be lynched a second time. I don't know if I'm making any sense, probably not. Why would anyone want to be double-lynched, unless a) she's a cobbler who wants the village to waste a lynch or b) she's a mutineer who thinks the same and believes she has left no trail.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Kath

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer? Can see your reasoning about the others but clearly missed that somewhere along the way. Thinks Gwath might be a mutineer.

I believe it's because Eomer was Night-killed.

I don't understand what's going on between Boro and Mac. Or, more accurately, Boro, Mac and Lommy. Boro and Mac are suspecting each other all the time but both seem reluctant to do anything concrete about it (potential wolf-on-wolf?). Lommy is convinced Mac is evil. Lommy and Boro are joking around together and testing each other, and as a result seem to consider each other innocent. Go figure.


EDIT: Heey I'm triple-posting! Where is everyone?

[Thinlómien]

Alright then. I didn't use to pay much attention to Mac. I doubt anyone was. He was kind of staying in the background, making jokes, being nice, offering facts and maths. Being present but not too noticed. Exactly the position a wolf would like to have, may I say.

Then, I started thinking "all veteran loudmouths can't be innocent". A questionable statement, I know, and I won't discuss it further again. But what is important that thinking about it I was lead to thinking about Mac and realised I hadn't paid him almost any attention at all. He was hiding successfully.

I saw a few of his posts. What was he doing? Agreeing with people, especially Rikae the known Hunter and the known Macalaure-knower. I was like "arr he's just trying to avoid her attention and goes with the flow". I told him this. He pleasantly admitted it (that's what person of any role could do) and insisted he had added some points about people's activity. (Really Mac, can't you think of anything else? ) And then he retaliated by (carefully friendlily jokingly) accusing me of being generic in return. Not too innocent especially as he was kindly not really suspecting me in return. (That was like "oh yes I'm a big mighty wolf you can throw your petty suspicions at my direction but I won't mind we can still be friends before I eat you".)

I accused him of agreeing with people too much and what does he say? "I disagreed with Nogrod on Day1." Go Mac, that was pretty pitiful. And then he's just being a tad too easy and non-defensive to really be innocent. An innocent would be more on guard about attacks against him because he would be annoyed by their untruthfulness.

I don't like his quarrel with Boro. It hardly looks like both of them are innocent. And I happen to consider Boro rather innocent, so that's one more point against Mac. (Off-topic, if Boro is really evil - a cobbler doesn't count - I'll never trust him again.)

Then, the critical point.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Mac, explain to me why your general blandness and lack of opinions in this game does not mean you're a wolf. *taps toe*

No one can honestly say that's not wolvish. Really, the way he takes it so jokingly and easily and smoothly just sets all my radars beeping. This is not helped at all by the fact that Rikae says that that is exactly the kind of thing Mac would say to her as a wolf. And what about his next reaction - pretending he doesn't get it or gets sceptic:

Originally Posted by Mac

Okaaaay...
If you expected me to throw out some suspicion at you in turn, I might have - if you were not a semi-known innocent.

Eeee this is not a point against Mac but if he's a mutineer, then it would be worth looking at Shasta and Sally(/Gwath):

Originally Posted by Mac

Since Gwath and Sally are missing, it's almost entirely up to you now, Shasta.

ToDay, nothing special. Except that I think he'd be a tad more aggressive and defensive than he is now if he was innocent. The innocent seldom have such ever-lasting patience and joking mood he's displaying.

LYNCH HIM I say. I have nothing to add in his defense except two things - he's not the likeliest of us to miss a kill accidentally and he was taking a huge risk by attacking Rikae who threatened to hunt him but then again he knows her better than any of us others so he would've been able to judge better if she was serious or not.


edit: xed with Greenie - arr I really don't want patting on the head or being called an innocent fanatic and ignored I want Macalaure to be lynched 'cos if he's not evil I'll eat my head! Seriously. I just think my obsession isn't doing any good to my case.

[Boromir88]

Speaking of tone, let's tone it down a bit. We don't know the situation we're in, how many wolves are left, how many cobblers.

Izzy, we go by what people say. I know it's frustrating to have people twist what you're saying, or just automatically start making assumptions, but that's how this thing works. All you can do is keep trying and keep helping. If some say you're the cobbler they most likely have good reason to believe it, unless they're a mutineer that's trying to look for someone we can lynch. If you are the cobbler, than I have no qualms about saying you are, because that's the purpose, that's what we have to do. If you aren't, than I'm wrong, and you can imagine me eating a shoe when this is all over.

Lommy, all you can do is try, win or lose this won't be your fault, and it won't be anyone's fault. Let's see what you have on Mac.

And now I'm going to flip on my Mira stance before, and agree with Greenie (which means I guess I'm agreeing with Mac too ). But I think it's time we get someone's role.

++Nogrod

If anyone else thinks there would be a more sensible, or informational choice, I'm all ears.

Edit: crossed with Lommy, who laid out her Mac reasons already

[Boromir88]

(Off-topic, if Boro is really evil - a cobbler doesn't count - I'll never trust him again.)
~Lommy

If you really are evil (and I think I should count the cobbler), you shouldn't be allowed to use the no self-confidence claim anymore.

[A Little Green]

Hmmm. I agree that information would be goooood but is it so good that it's worth missing a lynch? I'm not sure. If that information leads to a successful lynch toMorrow it's worth the miss toDay. What worries me is the possibility that it doesn't. If it doesn't, we have lost another chance to get a baddie.


EDIT: 500th post! Party party! And good night.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Known non-wolves (Night-killed)

That's a little bit presumptuous. You never know- they may have killed one of their own to mislead us on purpose. Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Speaking of tone, let's tone it down a bit. We don't know the situation we're in, how many wolves are left, how many cobblers.

Izzy, we go by what people say. I know it's frustrating to have people twist what you're saying, or just automatically start making assumptions, but that's how this thing works. All you can do is keep trying and keep helping. If some say you're the cobbler they most likely have good reason to believe it, unless they're a mutineer that's trying to look for someone we can lynch. If you are the cobbler, than I have no qualms about saying you are, because that's the purpose, that's what we have to do. If you aren't, than I'm wrong, and you can imagine me eating a shoe when this is all over.

Oh really?!

[Boromir88]

Yes "we" sally, "we" have to take what people say and lynch wolves and cobblers, I know the concept of "we" is entirely foreign to you mutineers and cobblers.

[Thinlómien]

Boro, why Nogrod? He wasn't lynched, so he wasn't argued for and against, and he was only around for Day1 and beginning of the Day2. So not much data. I think it'd be more informative to re-lynch Sally. But I still don't think we can afford lynching a ghost (not as long as Mac lives ).

Originally Posted by Boro

Lommy, all you can do is try, win or lose this won't be your fault, and it won't be anyone's fault.

Thanks, Mr Psychologist, but I'm always personally annoyed if I'm pretty sure I'm right and the village loses because they don't listen to me.

Originally Posted by Boro

If you really are evil (and I think I should count the cobbler), you shouldn't be allowed to use the no self-confidence claim anymore.

But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right?

Originally Posted by Eönwë

That's a little bit presumptuous. You never know- they may have killed one of their own to mislead us on purpose. Tell me- can a dead mutineer/aggressor still communicate with their team after they're dead?

Since when wolves have been allowed to commit suicide? And Eönwë, I think a dead mutineer wouldn't be allowed to communicate with the pack (and dead gifted aren't allowed to work either).

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt.


edit: x'ed with Boro

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lommy

-Snifflin’ Mac Sparrow ~ Cooper
LYNCH HIM!

Originally Posted by Rikae

Mac

KILL KILL KILL

Mac ~ *RAISES EYEBROW*

I have to say that the way the suspicion level against Kath has been carefully and continuously raised just before she came back is rather suspicious. Lommy, Rikae, Sally... unfortunately only one of those is even alive anymore. Talking of which:

Originally Posted by Kath

Mac why do you assume Eomer wasn't a mutineer?

Because he was killed by the mutineers?

Originally Posted by Kath

I said before that the fighting between Boro and Mac was quite likely to mean one of them was a wolf. I don't know which. To be on the opposite side of the fence to Lommy, given that Rikae was suspicious of Mac before she was killed it would seem to put him in a better light. Yet Boro doesn't seem suspicious. I guess by elimination and by the fact that I do believe Mac might be a bold enough wolf to kill Rikae knowing he might go down with her I'd probably vote for him. That said, I am more inclined to vote Gwath because of the modfire.

What you said up there made sense til here. You say you said before that Boro or me are a mutineer - where? I checked, but I must've missed that. Is your only actual reason to think I'm evil that I could be bold enough to? That's a ridiculous reason!
Also, the modfire is, I believe, a reason not to vote Gwath.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Also, the modfire is, I believe, a reason not to vote Gwath.

Hey, for once we agree. It is indeed ridiculous to vote him if he's to be modfired (I was supposed to comment on that but I forgot). We don't want to waste another chance.

[Boromir88]

I'm beginning to think Boro may be a cobbler after all since he insists so much on lynching the dead in such an unclear situation as this... but that does not mean he should be lynched, his sayings should just be taken with a pinch of salt~Lommy

*headdesks*

No I want a double-killing to find out someone's role! This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.

But, I will be honest with you...I only want to find out Nogrod, to pad my own confidence you might say. It's really selfish, because I haven't considered what info we'd get, whether he is innocent or not, I just want to know if I've pegged him correctly.

I said I'm open ears, and that means ghosting someone...but I want to try and see where we stand, get some sort of information, just try to find out something for certain for pete's sake.

But if I'm innocent, I can use it sometime even as evil, right? ~Lommy

Sure, but bear in mind you would only be allowed to use that once when you're evil...after that you'll have to get something better.

[Thinlómien]

Crap, Boro, why do you start innocent and genuine all over again everytime I start suspecting you more? That sounded pretty honest, and I understand your feelings well (but I still think Sally was more probably a mutineer). But I really don't want to lynch any ghosts before Mac is dead because - I know I'm obsessed - I really think he's evil and I'm starting to feel valierish about this and I really suffer physical pain ( ) from the thought that I know he's evil and no one agrees except Rikae who's dead. (Maybe I should go to sleep and make a decision never to drink coffee, especially not after noon.)

[Boromir88]

Crap, Boro, why do you start innocent and genuine all over again everytime I start suspecting you more? That sounded pretty honest~Lommy

Suspicion against me is the only protectionI have. Once the suspicion is gone and people start trusting me, I'm cannon fodder. Acting as a bear/wolf has kept me alive as the seer many times...before sally tries something sneaky, I should say I'm not saying I'm the seer now, because I'm not, but in the past being suspicious and confrontational has kept me from being wolf-meat.

I really don't want to lynch any ghosts before Mac is dead because - I know I'm obsessed - I really think he's evil and I'm starting to feel valierish about this and I really suffer physical pain ( ) from the thought that I know he's evil and no one agrees except Rikae who's dead.

I'm still suspicious of Mac, and I'm still alive, and I still have a retract.

[Thinlómien]

Seer
A Little Green

Hunter
Rikae

Ordos (& Ranger)
Lommy
Nerwen
Eomer
Boro
Annu
Shasta
Kath
McCaber
Mith
Wilwa
Gwath

Co-conspirators
Nogrod
Izzy

Mutineers
Mac
Sally
Inziladun
Mira

Izzy is replaceable with Shasta or Annu or Nerwen.
Mira and Inziladun are replaceable with Shasta or Annu or Wilwa or Gwath (or even Kath or McCab).


edit: xed with Boro

[Macalaure]

I thought I'd better start a new post to reply to Lommy's big post about me. I expected to see some good points that I'd have to concede, plenty of bad points that I'd have to defend myself against. Instead, I would have to array one quote after the other and comment each with "what the heck?".

Seriously, Lommy, you're as far off as one can be.


Oh, darnit, let's try it anyway (all quotes by you-know-who)...

He pleasantly admitted it (that's what person of any role could do) and insisted he had added some points about people's activity.

For the love of... I made a list and you accused me of just agreeing in it. I definitely wasn't, and proved it by telling you that I considered ideas in there that nobody else had considered. Savvy?

And then he retaliated by (carefully friendlily jokingly) accusing me of being generic in return. Not too innocent especially as he was kindly not really suspecting me in return.

I retaliated with friendliness? Oh noes!!

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.

I accused him of agreeing with people too much and what does he say? "I disagreed with Nogrod on Day1."

That was not all I said, and you know it! Tell me how an innocent can quote this way to make her points?

An innocent would be more on guard about attacks against him because he would be annoyed by their untruthfulness.

But there was no untruthfulness in your attacks so far. There was nothing in your attacks so far. And that was exactly what I criticised.

I don't like his quarrel with Boro. It hardly looks like both of them are innocent.

This is another quite popular statement right now - one that nobody actually bothered to give reasons for. Parrots!

No one can honestly say that's not wolvish. Really, the way he takes it so jokingly and easily and smoothly just sets all my radars beeping.

Inconceivable! I replied jokingly to a joking accusation! String me up, please!


Reading over it again, it is actually a very finely crafted piece of demagogy. Now I have to make up my mind what's up with you. Mutineer, conspirator who's sure about an innocent, or completely misguided ordo. My problem is, I don't think a real mutineer would be so single-minded.

Let's read some more...

[Boromir88]

Let me go crunch the number i.e. try to see with this many alive, how many days we have left...as much as I would want that information, at this point it might not be the best thing for a double-kill, and give up a day for info that may not be any use at all. My pride might have to endure the agony of not knowing about Nogrod until this is done, and depending upon how many days are left, we may just have travel these waters in the dark going off gut-reactions.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm still suspicious of Mac, and I'm still alive, and I still have a retract.

I know, but it's not much yet if it's you and me and a dead Rikae. *sigh*

edit: xed with Mac (hey this will be interesting) and Boro

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lommy

(Maybe I should go to sleep and make a decision never to drink coffee, especially not after noon.)

Now I understand what's behind it all...

[Boromir88]

I simply told you that your "points" against me were generic, and thus suspicious, but that your behaviour otherwise continued to make me feel innocent about you.~Mac

Put it however you want...feeling, gut, generic...that's all we got. So why would those suspicions make you suspicious of Lommy?

There hasn't been one good reason to lynch someone, it's all been generic, because that's all we got, vague generic suspicions. And not to be rude, but you all will have to realize that's the set up, this isn't a normal situation. We can't build clear, articulate, concise suspicions, because there's nothing but how we react to what others say.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Kath

Eonwe - seems to agree with sally.

When?

still reading...

[Nogrod]

Last Night there was a hunter in action. It was either Rikae or me killing the other. Well, it was Rikae who killed me. Had it been otherwise, I would be the hunter and I would have no reason to lie you about it.

I know I'm innocent - and a bit frustrated one because of the way I died - but you have no way to know it. Fine and dandy.

I do think you'll waste your lynch on me but if you wish, go ahead. I would probably take a more active role as a known innocent as that would feel like an obligation to help you as you cleared me - although I can't promise to deliver in this madness this game is (like Lommy said earlier: no offence Brinn - it's been fun and all that - but this concept sucks: there is nothing to grab for and so very little chances for reasoning anything).

But you guys lynched Mira already when there would have been a chance to lynch a mutineer. Now let's be as rational as we can in these circumstances!

And who was behind these ideas (to lynch Mira and to lynch a ghost instead of a possible mutineer - mutineer-ghosts are dead anyway)? Boro...

Originally Posted by Greenie

I don't understand what's going on between Boro and Mac. Or, more accurately, Boro, Mac and Lommy. Boro and Mac are suspecting each other all the time but both seem reluctant to do anything concrete about it (potential wolf-on-wolf?). Lommy is convinced Mac is evil. Lommy and Boro are joking around together and testing each other, and as a result seem to consider each other innocent. Go figure.

Exactly my thoughts! I'm not liking the way this thing is heading towards...


But from my position of a ghost I can safely take the other point of view as well, one I had totally forgotten as I was not around when it happened... I heard about it but forgot it until these latest discussions.

So the mutineers missed a kill! Well that is interesting and would basically rule out all the US. veterans (DL is just too nice for them and they would take care personally a kill was sent in time). But it could imply some un-orderedness among the mutineers - or which would be even better: low numbers!

Hmm... Food for thought. If that interpretation is correct you should go for those less experienced and scarcely on-line people... if not, then you have a galley (sic!) of suspects: Boro, Mac, Lommy, Mith, Kath...


But before we have shared thoughts about these two very different interpretations of the situation I could have proposed lynching Boro, if there was not this:

Originally Posted by Boro

This is the most frustrating thing for me. Because if I know one wolf, I'm confident in my ability to track down others, it's always getting that first one that is a big trouble, and...well as you don't need me saying, I don't know if we have it.

Most of what he's said has sounded like evil to my ears this far but this looks like pure innocent-thinking... Okay Boro could think this and perform it even if a wolf, but it's so much easier to think as an innocent what a wolf might do than to actually do things as a wolf (I know, I've been a wolf enough many times).

Sadly I'm not ready to give him the green card as yet either as how he explained that quote looked a bit fishy.

EDIT: X'd with a host of posts...

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boro

So why would those suspicions make you suspicious of Lommy?

What about incomplete quotes and populist tone?

[Boromir88]

Alright 11 people left. If Gwath doesn't vote that'll be 10 and after today 9, unless we decide to lynch Gwath...but at this point, I agree with Greenie.

If there are 4 mutineers still, and assuming if the Ranger makes no successful protections we have 3 days to get one (including today).

Yeesh, I can't even crunch the numbers properly, because not only is my math pathetic, but we have no idea how many mutineers are left.

Sorry, that was completely pointless in trying to figure out whether we should double-kill now or not. We either just risk it, by giving up a day and finding something that may be useful or may not...or we just keep ahead with ghosting people.