Tol-in-Gaurhoth XXIII: Journey to Hy Brazil

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by mormegil

Okay, I may die and I humbly request that all innocents look at the following very closely

Firefoot
Gurthang
Rune
TGWBS
among others

The only wolf I never suspected was Kath, which is extremely odd as I always tend to suspect her. Well played all. I really must get over Glirdan I seem to perpertually suspect him and have aided in his demise in two games recently, both innocent . Also it was my single-eyed approach to Glirdan that made me lower my guard on Anguirel whom I truly suspected for quite some time. However, credit must be given to him for lowering my suspicion of him. Well played.

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Holby, I think we can call you with confidence the Seeress Superior of the Downs...

If I shave it down a couple characters that can be my Personal Title!

Originally Posted by SpM

Actually, I do recall pondering whether you might be the Seer at some point, Holby, but dismissed on the basis that it would be too coincidental, given that you had already been a Seer twice before (and once when I was a Wolf).

Actually, three times before. You're not looking at your grimoire very carefully .

You wolves and lovers are going to post your nightly PM's? And you hunter and ranger are going to post your daily PM's?

[Kath]

And Kath - you shall forthwith be know as the expert in "damning analysis".

*bows* Thank you Sauce, but you weren't so shoddy yourself. Many of my friends will testify to the fact that I was terrified of you for two Days straight after I think you pegged all three of us.

Ang - you join Lhuna amongst the ranks of traitors. Why is it I always get killed by the Lovers All I can say is that I'm glad the villagers won in the end, I don't think I could have stood it if the Lovers had been victorious.

Cailin, Nogrod, thanks for some fantastic death scenes, and you're quite welcome for the inspiration Cailin!

I can post the wolves PMs if you like, though since Gurthang was PMing Ang behind my back for a while he may have more than I do.

[Anguirel]

I'm afraid I was getting so many PMs and was living in such various locations that I was unable to keep them...

[Firefoot]

Oft evil will shall evil mar...

We as innocents did rather pathetically, I'd say. Only one wolf without help... oh boy.

So Durelin... me and you, huh? Two people who have been living on the tops of each others' suspect lists since about Day 3...

Great job to everyone, especially to the wolves and lovers - and our brilliant Captain Cailin and Nogrod. I was right about you Lalaith. I just didn't pursue it. Shame. You know, I swear, the night before the last Day began, I had a dream that you were on the evil side. Eerie.

I thought just about every day that I was going to be lynched... and break my perfect record of never being lynched as an innocent.

[Lalaith]

Publish private amatory correspondence! Really, what sort of hussy do you take me for?

Actually, I could probably cobble something together but it would take a lot of editing, although we probably PMed less on average than we did as Nightingale and Hawk (given that we didn't have to speculate on wolvish identity etc), two and a half weeks' worth of PMs means quite a substantial amount of accumulated material.

[Caranlondien]

Excellent game, everyone! I agree that you Lovers deserve the "moral victory" title... I never would have guessed it was you two. All the villains did well. If only I had followed through when I was suspicious of Kath and Gurthang.

I have to say I was glad SpM turned out not to be a wolf, even after I saw the village had lynched him; I was right about something! That might be a first.

Cailín, this was a great game. I hope we'll see you modding again in the future! Nogrod, thanks for sub-modding. My death was nice and gory.

[Glirdan]

I really must get over Glirdan I seem to perpertually suspect him and have aided in his demise in two games recently, both innocent .

You should just live with the fact that I am always this confusing. Also, if I seemed a little more confusing this game, it's because it's summer break and my brain is fried right now.

Spm + Durelin - I could have sworn you two were the Lovers. There was just a little too much there that proved (to me anyway) that you were the Lovers. Good game. Durelin, congrats on making it to the end.

Lalaith + Ang - You guys did a really good job (in my eyes anyway. I think I was preoccupied with other people to notice you guys much) at being the Lovers.

Gurthang - It was only after I died that I started to suspect dirty work on your part. Good job!

Holby, Jenny and Nilp - Nilp, never suspected you at all. It would have been nice if you could have been kept around a little longer. That goes for all three of you. We could really have used your expertise. Too bad though. Great job while you were around.

Kath - Even though you condemned me to death (well, had a lead part in it with your analyses), I must congratulate you on a job well done. So, good job!

Cailin and Noggie - Excellent narrations. Talk about keeping someone in suspense!

Everyone else - it was great to play with you all again. Can't wait to play in another game with you. However, that probably won't be for quite some time. After I mod my next WWJ game, I'm taking a looooooong break. So, have fun guys!

[the guy who be short]

That was exciting, wasn't it?
And SpM, you were indeed brilliant. I based my analyses on yours. I have no idea why you were lynched that day, but it was a very good thing I was killed thereafter. I was convinced of Firefoot's guilt as well as Kath's and Gurthang's. Sorry, Firefoot!

Anguirel and Lal - No clue. I thought you were both innocents.

On that last Day of mine, when I voted Firefoot but suspected Kath more - I thought it was quite clear. I suspected Firefoot, and as the village was in a pretty tight situation, it made sense to ally myself to SpM, who had already voted, and attempt to seal Firefoot's death. We could go progress to Kath and Gurthang the next two days.

Terribly good fun. And sorry about being so very quiet. One reason was a life overload, with weddings, University open days, Prefect meetings and starting clubs galore. Another was "Werewolf apathy" - after only one game. I didn't intend to play in this game because I knew I'd be busy, but felt I should help Cailin out to balance genders.

Man of the Match: Anguirel. Can't believe you were a wolfy.

Runner up: SpM. Wonderful analyses, and very accurate, save on Firefoot.

[Lalaith]

Man of the Match: Anguirel

*proudly* Yes, he was splendid, wasn't he. As the ord lover, I just had to keep my head down and look useful but not too clever. The Wolf Lover has a much harder job, s/he has to bluff both the village and the wolves.
It wasn't really planned that way, but going for Gurthang blatantly proved a rather good move. It meant that even when the wolves knew who we were, the trail led straight back to Gurth and so they couldn't kill us so easily.

[Firefoot]

Out of curiosity - Lalaith, how much did you know? Did Ang tell you anything?

[Lalaith]

Hehe. At first, Ang didn't want to tell me who his lupine chums were, as he thought it might impair my play...but with a little gentle persuasion...
.I knew before start of play.
He kept me up to speed (I assume) with wolvish plans, who was to be killed and so on, but he certainly didn't pass any PMs on to me or anything like that. He is a wolf of honour.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

It took me so long to figure out just what on Middle-eath happened there. I think I understand now...

Anguirel, from Day One you were just hilarious.

Everyone else: good game! And nice modding from Cailín and Nogrod.

[Durelin]

Whoa...I lived?

Amazing game, everyone - especially Ang and Lalaith of course.

And yes, rather funny that we survived together, 'Footie.'

[Gurthang]

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

You wolves and lovers are going to post your nightly PM's?

You know not what you are asking. I kept all the PM's, which came to a grand total (excluding the last Night) of: 90. Me - 31(one sent just to Ang), Ang - 24, Kath - 20, Rune - 15

First off, I feel like I played rather badly. Maybe it was the time crunch, but I was so suspicious, I still don't see how I ever survived so long. Not my worst game, but easily my second worst. I really wish my first time as a wolf would have been better.

Now, Kath, I'm really sorry. For killing you that last Day and for thinking you were the Lover. Since nobody else knows, I was so sure during Night 6 that Kath and Saucepan were the Lovers that I sent a PM (only one) to Ang telling him so. I'm sort of embarassed about that now, considering that I sent it to the real Lover.

Ang, very well played. I should have know that you were the Lover when your PM box kept filling up. The thought crossed my mind, but I didn't want to jump to conclusions. As soon as you tried to kill me I knew you were the Lover. Unfortunately, you were able to convince Kath that we should not kill Lalaith. I was very unhappy throughout that entire Night. I argued everything perfectly, but in the end you still beat me down. That's what made me so mad, I knew the truth, but there was nothing I could do about it.

I think it's rather interesting that Jenny chose Anguirel the first Night. I knew she was the Hunter from her all-caps plea to save Nilp. If we had killed Jenny that first kill, the Lovers never would have been a factor. But someone *coughAngcough* wanted to kill Eomer instead. Funny how that all works out.

Oh, and I was waiting the entire time to say the line about "this ship cannot be crewed by two men." It didn't fit so well where I finally put it, but it works. I had a lot of fun with the PotC quotes. (II comes out Friday! )

Anyway, spectacular game. High on the charts for me.

[Lalaith]

But someone *coughAngcough* wanted to kill Eomer instead. Funny how that all works out.

Yes sorry about that. We thought he was the Seer, you see.

Which reminds me, Gurth, I must tell you there was a bit of confusion on my part about your biblical reference. I'm an old-fashioned King James sort of girl, and in that bible the verse has "see through a glass, darkly": so I thought you were dropping Seer hints, not Lover hints. There you go.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Kath

Ang - you join Lhuna amongst the ranks of traitors. Why is it I always get killed by the Lovers All I can say is that I'm glad the villagers won in the end, I don't think I could have stood it if the Lovers had been victorious.

Oh come now, Kath...there must be something you're doing against the power of Love.

Thanks, Ang and Lalaith, for showing me that the Lovers can actually survive until the game end. But anyways, I still look forward to the first "Lovers win!" game...

Also, too bad Firefoot had to be an ordo.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Uh, what happened?

Every time an experienced player attacks my DAY 1 style, they always turn out to be weird baddies. There was Honkin' Sauce on Di's Junior game, and now Ang turns out to be a Lover. He was screaming 'wolf' to me by DAY 1's end, yes, but Lover?

Ah, well, another excellently useless performance from the three-time self-lynching champion.

Kudos to the Werewolves.

A standing ovation for the Lovers.

Good luck to the Passenger--they wouldn't have won without it.

Great modding job, Cailín and Nogrod!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Holby

Actually, three times before. You're not looking at your grimoire very carefully ...

Yes, I saw that after I had posted. 4 times a Seer! What's going on? Indeed, you have only been an ordo in about a quarter of your games, you lucky thing ...

For those of you calling on me not to be so modest, I accept that my analysis following Rune's death was breathtaking in its brilliance.

Problem is, it was the only analysis that I really had a chance to do, and even then I managed to almost completely misapply it. So it is not so much modesty as deserved self-criticism.

I am, at least, glad that I decided to trust Glirdan, TGWBS and Durelin (although a game where Durelin and I were not at each others' throats was somewhat disconcerting). Not so glad that I decided to trust Lal ...

Kath, I mean it when I label you the Mistress of Damning Analysis. Your analysis of Glirdan was a masterpiece of painting him in the worst light possible, while sounding entirely reasonable, and was probably what sealed his fate. And your analysis of me, while less aggressive in its accusations (most probably because of what I had said earlier in the Day) was wonderfully subtle in suggesting my (non-existent) Wolfishness. Again, it seems to have played a major pat in my downfall. I could have responded to it in detail, but alas the England v Portugal match was calling. Extremely skillful (and productive) work, though.

Mind you, Diamond's analysis of me was a pretty good hatchet job too, and she was innocent. Just goes to show that you can use practically anything a player says to paint them a Wolf if (as a Wolf) you want to or if (as an innocent) you believe them to be Wolfish. Then again, I already knew that from my own time as a Wolf.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

We as innocents did rather pathetically, I'd say.

Frustratingly, we were all pretty much on the right track as far as Gurthang was concerned, and yet always seemed to find supposedly better (and decidedly more innocent) suspects to hang at the end of the day. Which is largely down to Gurth's own efforts, given that most (if not all) of his votes came from those who knew him to be a Wolf. So less of the modesty from you, Plankmeister. You done well, m'boy.

Originally Posted by Glirdan

You should just live with the fact that I am always this confusing.

Don't I just know it! And that is precisely why I thought you most likely innocent. Although I do have a proverbial bone to pick with you. Your plaintiff cry for me to be lynched as you were yourself led to the gallows was most disturbing ...

Finally, one more bone to pick - with those who labelled me (and, indeed, Eomer) as far too dangerous to be allowed to live in case we were Wolves and/or who pedalled the oft-repeated theory that I become more suspicious the longer I live. It hardly gives me much of a chance as an innocent, does it ...?

[Glirdan]

Don't I just know it! And that is precisely why I thought you most likely innocent. Although I do have a proverbial bone to pick with you. Your plaintiff cry for me to be lynched as you were yourself led to the gallows was most disturbing ...(Saucy)

Well, at least someone realizes it. As for me crying for you to be lynched, it's just that I really thought you and Dureling were the Lovers. The fact that neither of you voted for each other and that you were defending her through the entire game bugged me. Also, I still didn't quite trust you, so, as a parting shot and advice to these bumbling bafoons (who, ironically, ended up winning ), I told them to be rid of you. So, for that, I'm sorry.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Glirdy

The fact that neither of you voted for each other and that you were defending her through the entire game bugged me.

Which rather excludes the possibility that I might actually have thought her innocent ...

[mormegil]

SpM, I must say that I really enjoyed your first day it was quite a change for you. It's something I've been trying to accomplish: A change in style of play. It draws a lot of suspicion but it's rather fun.

Also great analysis.

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by Gurthang

You know not what you are asking. I kept all the PM's, which came to a grand total (excluding the last Night) of: 90. Me - 31(one sent just to Ang), Ang - 24, Kath - 20, Rune - 15

Okay, okay, point taken- a summary then of why ya'll killed when ya did.

[Lalaith]

I really think I also need to offer congratulations to Findëasëa - and apologies.

She was absolutely spot on with all her suspicions, really impressive reasoning. My horribly patronising showboating about empiricism and so on, was just an attempt at distraction. And on her birthday too. I felt really mean.

Of course the joke was really on me because my argument was nonsense, all my reasoning was entirely a priori, I knew who the wolves were.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by morm

SpM, I must say that I really enjoyed your first day it was quite a change for you. It's something I've been trying to accomplish: A change in style of play. It draws a lot of suspicion but it's rather fun.

Thanks. Although it was not so much a change in style as a bit of in character fun gradually fading into my old analytical self. I am not sure that it's possible for me to change style as such since, when I become absorbed in the game, I find myself doing and typing much the same as I always do, especially when time is tight and I am thinking more about getting my thoughts out than as to the style in which they are presented.

I would actually like to be able to contribute as much, while actually typing a lot less. Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible for me ...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

The Seer? I'm never the Seer, not once in about a million Werewolf games.

I can see why you would think that, though. Refusing to vote for Nilp when I was in trouble might have suggested that; but really, the Nilp lynching got the game off to a ridiculous start. He just wants to be loved!

So both of my slaves turned out to be treacherous creatures of the night. I regret not whipping them enough, now...

[Kath]

Kath, I mean it when I label you the Mistress of Damning Analysis. Your analysis of Glirdan was a masterpiece of painting him in the worst light possible, while sounding entirely reasonable, and was probably what sealed his fate.

That's why I rarely do them when innocent. I have a bad habit of sounding sure of myself and getting people alongside, and almost always get an innocent lynched.

I could have responded to it in detail, but alas the England v Portugal match was calling.

Why do you think I posted it when I did

Now, someone asked about the kills, let's see:
Night 1 was Cailin and Noggie of course - we had a chat about how we were going to act and whether we should concentrate on the Lovers early on (oh that we had!). We also considered how early we should kill Sauce and morm due to their threat-level. We decided how we would pick who was to be killed each Night (whether by vote or consensus).

Night 2 - we killed Eomer, mostly because Ang convinced us, well, me, Gurthang never believed it, that he was the Seer. It was a choice between him and Jenny. We also spoke about timezone issues as we were trying to work out when we'd have to make a decision by. We also discussed how Rune would act the next Day, as he was worried he'd be under a lot of suspicion.

Night 3 - we killed Jenny, sure that she was pretty unlikely to take any of us with her, though there was some worry over Rune. We also considered morm as possible Seer but in the end decided that was unlikely.

Night 4 - we killed Holby, obvious really. We also talked about when we would kill Sauce, it was planned to happen after we'd killed two of the innocent, which was the way it went I think though the villagers helpfully did it for us.

Night 5 - we killed Fin, as revenge for Rune, really no other reason. She was one of the three innocents, and Caran had no suspicion of any of us so we thought it would be fine to leave her alive. We considered Tali but thought it would be worth keeping him as he was going after Sauce.

Night 6 - we killed Caran. This was the Night Gurthang decided I was the Lover due to a comment of mine saying we shouldn't kill Sauce because he'd come under suspicion the next Day. Apparently he didn't believe me

Night 7 - we killed TGWBS. Eventually we decided I was not the Lover and so decided not to kill a male since we knew there was no point, and we thought we needed to get the innocent Lover that Night, which we would as we were going to go for Lalaith. However, we were then persuaded into killing TGWBS by Ang. That was my fault though, I suggested not going after the Lovers, as if we could lynch an innocent the next Day we would win, not realising that the plan had just been revealed to a Lover

And that's the gist of it.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kath

Why do you think I posted it when I did ...

Ooh! Sneaky!

As I said, just goes to show how analyses can be used as great tools by skillful Wolves.

Originally Posted by Kath

We also considered how early we should kill Sauce and morm due to their threat-level.

I still don't understand why morm and I always seem to viewed in this way. There are many other skillful players who seem to get away with a lot more. Mentioning no names *coughLalaithcough*.

Originally Posted by Kath

We decided how we would pick who was to be killed each Night (whether by vote or consensus).

Did you ever (prior to the final Night) consider how things might be play out if there were two remaining Wolves: one the Lover and one Loveless?

Originally Posted by Kath

We considered Tali but thought it would be worth keeping him as he was going after Sauce.

Indeed. I could have predicted that he would be the last of the known not-Wolves to go.

[Kath]

I still don't understand why morm and I always seem to viewed in this way. There are many other skillful players who seem to get away with a lot more. Mentioning no names *coughLalaithcough*.

Because my dear you have proven your skill. You and morm have both shown that you can win as wolves and as innocents and that you can do it with incredible skill. We now know that Lalaith and Ang can do the same thing, but prior to this game it hadn't been so obvious. That's the reason.

Did you ever (prior to the final Night) consider how things might be play out if there were two remaining Wolves: one the Lover and one Loveless?

No, at least not via PMs at any rate. We sort of figured that we'd get the innocent Lover before too long and the problem would just go away. Really bright plan that

[mormegil]

Did you ever believe me to be the seer?

[Kath]

Did you ever believe me to be the seer?

Um, I think we contemplated it. Yes, Ang suggested it and we had a little chat about it, but I don't think we ever really thought you were the Seer. Why, were you trying to fake it?

[mormegil]

A bit. It's fun to try and steer the wolf conversation towards yourself when you are merely an innocent ordo, the only problem is the seer dreams of you too

[Kath]

Ah this is true. Well take heart then, as you were the subject of some conversation, and some serious pushing for your death during the Day too

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kath

Because my dear you have proven your skill. You and morm have both shown that you can win as wolves and as innocents and that you can do it with incredible skill.

Well, there are others who have, I think, proven their skill in past games, Lal included. I always think it rather unfair that players like morm, Eomer and I seem to get singled out for special treatment, when others are just as deserving (even though they might be reluctant to accept their just reward ... ).

Looking back on my notes, I see that only one of the baddies (Ang) voted for Nilp that first Day. And his was the vote I least suspected! Gah! Oh well, at least I was right that only one Wolf voted for Eomer. And there was indeed one Wolf (Kath) who no-voted on Day 1.

Gah (again)! Gurth's votes on Days 1 and 2 were such throwaway votes! And his vote for Rune was the most likely Wolf-on-Wolf vote!

This was my suspect list immediately after my Rune death analysis:

Current view:

Almost certainly a Wolf: Gurthang
Possible Wolves: Anguirel, Kath and Glirdan.
Tend to think innocent: Firefoot, Lalaith
Likely innocents: TGWBS, Durelin
Innocents: Caran, Findesea, Tailesin

Innocent Lover: Taliesin or Durelin?

Why on earth did I let Gurth slip from top spot on my suspect list??!! And why on earth did I get so hung up about Firefoot??!! Triple Gah!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Hey guys sorry to have been absent the last days, but I see Kath has filled you in on our talks. . .

It was actually quite impressive how you got all the rest of my wolf friends so high on your list, SPM . This was also one of the reasons for me to have no desire, checking out what was going on in the game the first days after my death.

btw I still don't see that contradiction wich got me killed and I am pretty sure I would have said the same had I been an ordo. . . I guess my "normal" behaviour is quite lupine. . .

Lhuna, my favourit WW player! I am so sad that you died so fast, I would have loved to see how you reacted when I declared that I was 100% sure that you were (yet again) inocent. . . I had planned when to do it and all, but then you got your self killed the day before!

[Firefoot]

And why on earth did I get so hung up about Firefoot??!!

Dunno, but I was starting to feel downright persecuted.

(I've wanted to say that for a long time now... )

[Lalaith]

we could lynch an innocent the next Day we would win, not realising that the plan had just been revealed to a Lover

Funnily enough, that was actually a point I suggested to Ang that he could make to his furry chums. We really thought we were for the chop that night. Another last-ditch point I suggested, although I don't think it ever came to that, was that the trail to Gurth from our deaths was so obvious that he would be lynched for sure...leaving you, Kath, to fight it out alone with four innocents, one of whom (Tali) was a proven.

can win as wolves and as innocents and that you can do it with incredible skill. We now know that Lalaith and Ang can do the same thing

Can I just remind you that we didn't actually win....which was my fault. Ang couldn't have played better - it was a delight to watch a master at work close-up, I can tell you - but I'm not feeling particularly pleased with my own performance. For example, I really should have been much cleverer about persuading you all to lynch Gurthang. That migraine came at a very bad time, game-wise, and then I became very busy in RL, but still, no excuses, there was ammo there and I didn't use it well enough. So thank you, Saucie, for your kind words - but the idea I deserve to be as feared as you, seems ludicrous to me. Particularly as I also failed miserably to persuade the village to lynch the last two wolves I was pursuing (Boro in the Penguin game, who I'd dreamt of, and Eomer in DWWW who I'd deduced)

Did you ever (prior to the final Night) consider how things might be play out if there were two remaining Wolves: one the Lover and one Loveless?

Funnily enough, Ang and I were extremely worried about this and discussed it at some length. We both also sent anxious PMs to Cailin and Noggie on the subject. Now, we banked on the fact that the Loveless wolf could not actually expose his treacherous colleague to the village without exposing himself in the process. However, the danger was not only that the wolf would obviously agitate for the lynching of the Lover Wolf, but that the Loveless wolf about to be lynched might, in a fit of pique, expose the traitor in his dying breath, as it were. Or, as Gurthang in fact did, refuse to kill anyone except Ang himself, preferring a village win to a traitor victory.

We also tried to keep you alive, Kath, wanting either Rune or Gurthang lynched first, because we realised that once the remaining wolves were all male, then they would know that the innocent Lover was a female and start killing/helping to lynch the remaining girls in the crew.

Incidently, in future Lover games, can I make a small plea on their behalf? It seems rather unfair that while wolves can win if they merely equal the number of innocents, that Lovers only win if they outnumber the others. Can it not be that Lovers win if they are down to the last four? Not that it would have helped us in the endgame we had this time, but still...

[Anguirel]

I am strongly in accord with Lalaith's last point! As it was, we were fighting not for victory, but for the merest approach to victory...

[The Saucepan Man]

Although you could easily have won if Gurthang had made a different choice. While I am obviously happy wth the decision that Gurth made, some Wolves might take the view that it is better for one Wolf to win and survive, even if attached to an innocent Lover.

[Kath]

some Wolves might take the view that it is better for one Wolf to win and survive, even if attached to an innocent Lover.

It's a fair point but with our group we'd pretty much decided that the wolf Lover wasn't on our team. In essence he'd been working against us from Day 1, he wanted us all dead, had he survived it wasn't a win for us.

Also, I see your point about Lalaith and others being just as accomplished, but they don't do it so loudly! That's why you, morm and Eomer get noticed.