The Silmarillion Survivor

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Plus he's her UNCLE, Saucie.

Well, I said that it would muck things up ...

But I must admit that I had forgotten that little fact.

Now, let's see. If we marry Nienor off to an Elf they will, unless they accomplish some act worthy of Eru's grace, live together for what will seem to the Elf only the flickering of an eye. That would leave one very broken-hearted Elf. Still, I'm tempted to suggest Celeborn, simply to save the poor chap from an eternity of being hen-pecked by Galadriel.

As for eviction, I agree with Lalaith that there are far too many Noldor left. To appease Ang, we can choose one who will not be involved in the forthcoming Fall of Gondolin. No idea who Salgant or Ereinon are, so they seem likely candidates, unless anyone would care to suggest a good reason for keeping them.

It would be a shame to cut Ancalagon down before he has had a chance to reach maturity. Besides, he plays rather an important role, later on doesn't he? Then again, it is possible that Smaug and Scatha have already hatched out. I would be happy to remove Ancalagon if it allowed them a role in the story.

[Anguirel]

Some clarifications-

Ereinion is Gil-Galad's real name.

Salgant is the Lord of Harps at Gondolin, a fat, merry, comic and contemptible character. I find him quite interesting.

[Lalaith]

Ang, I am NOT going to countenance Morgoth for Nienor. That really is too pervy for words.

[Anguirel]

It would make an amusing "La Belle et La Bete" write-up...

Anyone for evicting Idril? Oh, blast, Earendil pops up again. Why does he have to have such an irritating mother?

Ancalagon's only role, Saucie, is as Earendil's hunting trophy. "I sailed to Middle-earth and all I got was this lousy Dragon..."

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Ancalagon's only role, Saucie, is as Earendil's hunting trophy. "I sailed to Middle-earth and all I got was this lousy Dragon..."

Come now, Ang, you can think up other things for him to do, surely. If he survives, how about giving him a role in the Fall of Gondolin?

For the task: I shall vote ++Celeborn for the reason stated earlier, and because it amuses me.

For eviction: I shall vote ++Celegorm, because he's still a nasty piece of work and there are too many Noldor.

[Anguirel]

For reasons set out above, I shall vote for ++CELEBRIMBOR.

Votes so far:

Nienor's Hand

Mim:1
Celeborn:1
Celebrimbor:1

Eviction

Ancalagon:2
Celegorm:1

Due to the late start, votes will close at 1:30 pm ish tomorrow.

[Gothmog]

Due to my ongoing illness with fever and a terrible headache, this won't be a long post. I'll just vote on the basis of other people's arguments. Sorry!

As for a man for Nienor, I want someone noble. She deserves some happiness in her life, especially if we look at her life in the original version. Someone like Glorfindel. Or Dior perhaps, at least half human (if you don't count Luthien as a mortal after her return to ME). Celebrimbor seems like a good choice too. Hmm... Glorfindel is about to die (fall of Gondolin) and Dior has found his Nimloth. That leaves:

++Celebrimbor

As for the eviction, I can't miss this opportunity to get rid of yet an other "evil C", the last one. He'll have to join his evil brothers Curufin and Caranthir.

++Celegorm

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Was not going to vote, but then I reaised that the lovely person mim deserved a nice wife. He has suffert so much and it would allso be fun to see what that will lead too. . .

++Mim

I am getting rather iritatet with Celegorm so he will have to go...(og for at hjælpe Anders)

++Celegorm

[Lalaith]

As it's been raining all day today, I feel there is something very appealing about a Celegorm/Nienor match. Lots of glowering, brooding and angst involved, all very Wuthering Heights.
So
++CELEGORM for Nienor.

Eviction: (to save Nienor's suitor)
++ANCALAGON

[Alcarillo]

It would be terrible if the Petty-Dwarves were to become extinct. To continue their line, I shall vote for Mim to become Nienor's husband. Hopefully, they will become the parents of a proud and noble race of Half-dwarves.

++Mim

And I shall vote off Uinen, just to give the Half-dwarves a hard time sailing to the future Numenor.

++Uinen

[Eonwe]

Gothmog, im with you 100% on this one.

for Nienor's husband ++Celebrimbor

and ill hand an eviction notice to ++Celegorm To the Void with yeh!!!

[Celuien]

Okay, for eviction:
++ANCALAGON
to promote the safety of Middle-earth and to avenge Maeglin.

The idea of Mim as Nienor's husband amuses me immensely, so
++MIM

[The 1,000 Reader]

If it counts, ++Celebrimbor for marriage and ++Celegorm for doing away with.

[arcticstorm]

I think it would be interesting if Celebrimor married Nienor
++Celebrimor
But for eviction I would like to propose an alternative, we need to reunite Doriath under the girdle before it is too late. For that reason I will vote to evict ++Olwe

[Anguirel]

Olwe is dead, arctic! Glaurung ate him...

Nienor's Hand

Mim:4
Celeborn:1
Celebrimbor:4
Celegorm-1

Eviction

Ancalagon:4
Celegorm:4
Uinen-1

1000 reader's votes were not counted-a rule I do like to enforce occasionally, particularly against him...

Votes close in about six hours.

Lalaith, I would change my marriage vote to Celegorm but I'm really frightened Nienor will fall into the hands of Mim...

You beastly anti-Celegormists, leave me my last C. I killed one voluntarily for you, yet you vote them away before their time...fie on ye...

Read this story and see if you have pity...

Fallen to Ashes

Not by me...pretty good, isn't it?

[Lalaith]

I've done what I can to prevent a Celegorm eviction, Ang, nothing more I can help with there, but you can count me as a Celebrimbor for Nienor vote if you need to break the horrid Mim tie....

[arcticstorm]

oops, my bad, I was busy righting a paper at the last minute and just skimmed through the post and completely skipped over that part and the part about the girdle being restored,
anyway I do think that all of Doriath needs to have one ruler, even if the girdle had been restored. ++Dior

[Tuor of Gondolin]

So what happens if the marriage vote is a tie?
Polyandry?

(Maedhros walks into their dwelling): "What is a Man, an
elf, and a dwarf doing together.....Agh!"

[Gothmog]

You beastly anti-Celegormists, leave me my last C. I killed one voluntarily for you, yet you vote them away before their time...fie on ye...

May I be one of those?
I did read the story and it was beautiful, well written and all. But no pity for Celegorm, no. As before, I feel pity for those of the brothers which could have been great, noble leaders ef elves and because of the oath and their brothers was dragged into a net of murders and grief. Like Maglor. And Maedhros. They both showed "human" sides from time to time, especially Maglor. And that is seen in the story too, but Celegorm shows no signs of regret or feelings of guilt over what they've done. He and Curufin was lost from the first words of the oath I'm afraid.

And yes, i was both surprised and happy to see Caranthir go, but i will not give up before all off the Cs is gone. Maglor and Maedhros deserves a second chance in life, and it'll be interesting to see their development without the influence of their brothers.

And no over to the voting...This result could create a love-triangle of great proportions. A man, an elf and a dwarf? Wow... Not even in a tragic work like Silmarillion did something like thet occur. It will lead to disaster, and therefor I hope The 1,000th Reader will vote again with something of a reason to back up his voting. His choice's were good though

P.S. tack så mycket, Rune. Din hjälp är alltid välkommen. Antar att jag blir skyldig dig en gentjänst om vi får ut Celegorm.

[Anguirel]

Voting over. As Lalaith requested, in the event of the Celebrimbor/Mim tie her Celegorm vote will be changed to a Celebrimbor one.

Mim:4
Celeborn:1
Celebrimbor:5

Celebrimbor has won Nienor's hand in marriage!

Ancalagon:4
Celegorm:4
Uinen-1
Dior-1

Both Celegorm and Ancalagon are out.

Write-up coming!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

The anti-dwarf defamation society will hear of this
anti-dwarf bias (it seems really Petty).

However, Mim, generous soul that he is, is prepared
to accept (now that he doesn't have to look over
his shoulder for Turin) in recompense elf and
Mannish help in building and taking over some
modist dwelling, say--- Moria. (Oh, yeah, and
some matchmaking (he's not picky, Man, elf,
dwarf, whatever).

[Anguirel]

RESULTS OF DAY TWELVE (M-e)

After the victory over Glaurung at the Battle of Brethil, Maedhros and Maglor journeyed south, given free passage through Doriath, back to Ossiriand. Celegorm was also offered this free passage; but refused to travel by it until the Silmaril was returned to Maedhros. This Dior would not do, though he himself had stopped wearing it-it had begun to burn at him-giving it to Elwing his daughter. So it was that Celegorm and his followers were forced to skirt Doriath, taking the long northern road.

It was here that by chance Ancalagon was flying, on his journey from his humiliation at Maeglin's hands. His wounds on his wings were deep, and he flew awkwardly; he was often forced to rest, and now was one such pause. When Celegorm saw the vast, injured Dragon blocking his path, he called his hounds and charged it. But Ancalagon would not be so bested; in one exhalation he burnt Celegorm's prized pack. Driven by affront and rage, Celegorm ran home his keen lance before Ancalagon could breathe again. The creature expired, for the lance had struck the rent in Ancalagon's breast dealt by Anguirel; but in its death-throes it tore down Celegorm from his horse and slew him. Thus died Celegorm, impulsive and overconfident to the last; and his followers bore him back sadly to Ossiriand.

RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE

At Nan Elmoth, Nienor buried the masked Elf who had called himself Lomion as he had asked, and laid the sword beside him. Then she returned into the heart of Melian's realm. Here a feast of reuniting was in progress between the Elves of Neldoreth and Doriath, though Dior's folk still kept apart. Galadriel came from Nargothrond with her cousin Celebrimbor; and love flourished between he and Nienor. But Mim the Petty-Dwarf came unexpected, and demanded Nienor as payment for his 299 slain sons. His suit was laughed at, but he was induced to accept instead a highly-paid post as the jester at Nargothrond...so Celebrimbor and Nienor were married, and returned there with the apparently mollified Mim.

In the meantime Tuor son of Huor had been guided by Ulmo's counsel to Gondolin; and Queen Idril was seized with love for him, neither knowing nor caring about the death of Maeglin. They were wedded, and had a son, Earendil. But Glorfindel did not look happily on these events, for he, too, had loved Idril in vain...

Day Thirteen in Middle-earth has begun! The contestants:

Tribes

VALAR

Elbereth
Ulmo
Mandos, Doom of

NOLDOR

Maedhros
Maglor
Celebrimbor
Ereinion
Galadriel
Idril
Salgant
Glorfindel
Finduilas
Gwindor

TELERI/SINDAR

Celeborn
Mablung
Cirdan
Nimloth
Elwing

MAIA

Melian
Uinen
Arien (with Sun)

DWARVES

Telchar of Nogrod (incidentally, probably by now a different character. But with the same name. Like Durin the Deathless...)
Mim the Petty-dwarf

MEN

Dior
Elured
Elurin
Tuor
Nienor

PEREDHIL

Earendil

FORCES OF EVIL

Morgoth
Sauron
Glaurung

Challenge thirteen: unlucky for all. Engineer the fall of Doriath (both Melian's and Dior's realms. You may evict either of these rulers.)

[Gothmog]

Cruel, Ang. Cruel as always. First the Glorfindel-loving-Idril hint to destroy the happy atmosphere and then this task. Revenge for a certain eviction, aye?

To evict Melian is one easy option. Without her the girdle will disappear and we know that it stopped most of the evil powers, with an exception for Glaurung, Ancalagon and a few more, strong dragons. Removing it would certainly make things a lot easier for Morgoth and his host. Besides her presence, beeing a maia, should encourage her people. Without her their morale will falter.

To have elves destroy elves will be a lot harder now when the agressive C brothers are evicted. As I remember, Celegorm was the one leading the assault on Menegroth, killing Dior. I say we go for a Melkorian attack instead.

And one other thing. If it's possible, I'd like to see Dior's sons, Elurin and Elured, meet an other fate than they did. I'd like to see them live and become adult. With the blood of Beren and Luthien, one drop man, one drop elf and one drop maia, their bound to end up as great characters. Just look at Elwing's fate! It was Celegorm's servant which left them in the woods to starve, and he's no longer around.

[Lalaith]

Yes, the poor babies. Let them live.

[Anguirel]

On Elured and Elurin-they will probably die young whatever happens; too little is known about them for them to be interesting heroes.

One alternative though; if Earendil somehow doesn't make it to adulthood, one or both of these brothers can take up his role (though obviously they wouldn't marry Elwing, so that means no Elrond or Elros...)

[Eonwe]

Originally Posted by modjobman

Celebrimbor and Nienor were married, and returned there with the apparently mollified Mim.

this makes me laugh!

righto. as gothmog said, very, very cruel, ang! but isn't life always cruel, especially when you're living in the silmarillion? anyway, melian is the obvious choice. no girdle, no protection. the sons of feanor offer no bulwark. so doriath is open to attact.

hmmm. i wonder if there would be a way to creat civil war in doriath. something about the silmaril? haven't thought about it (and i have to go to class), but that would be the best way to defeat doriath.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

There could be a loophole for Melian. What's to prevent her from
(metaphorically) wrapping the girdle in plastic wrap and setting
up elsewhere (The willow meads of Nan-Tathren, unspoiled
Lorien, etc.).

EDIT: Note to Anguirel. Mim could come out of this fine. He might
make a bundle with his stand-up act, convert money into jewels,etc.,
leave Doriath just in time and set up in Belgrod or Nevrast, where
he could restart the Petty Dwarf line with some dwarf maidens
attracted by his wealth, or alternately get Melian on the
rebound and have her girdle protect them in Nevrast or
Belgrod.

[Gothmog]

The cruel, Curufin-lover:

On Elured and Elurin-they will probably die young whatever happens; too little is known about them for them to be interesting heroes.

But we don't know anything about Mim after Turin's departure either, other than that Hurin slayed him. And here he is! Not only has he proposed to Nienor, now he's going to work as a well paid jester at one of the elven courts! Surely you could come up with some sort of future for the two sons of Dior without having Earendil evicted.

Tuor: How are we supposed to make Melian move her girdle to some other place?

[Anguirel]

If Elured, Elurin, and Earendil all grow to adulthood, we're in for three immensely powerful Peredhil. Unless I make a couple of them Turin-style antiheroes it may be too much to bear...but we'll see how things go...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

"Tuor: How are we supposed to make Melian move her girdle to some other place?"
=========
By coincidence, my suggestion for elimination ties in with that. I
say + + Ulmo (much though I like him). This would not
only temporarily abash Melian but also lead to the possibility
of poisoning of the waters around and through Doriath (Morgoth
seeing this as a way to make Doriath untenable).

[Anguirel]

For reference, here are all the contestants currently in Doriath-

At Melian's Court

Melian
Celeborn
Mablung

At Dior's Court

Dior
Nimloth
Elwing (with Silmaril)
Elured
Elurin
Telchar of Nogrod (I think I forgot to mention this specifically, but he stayed in Brethil after the battle to help repair Dior's halls)

Out of these, Melian is the clear front-runner, with Dior a possible second, as the best warrior present (probably.)

If Melian does not go, then the armies of Morgoth will be halted again and only powerful Dragons and Balrogs will penetrate into the forest. Thus, if we seek a fall directly perpetrated by Morgoth, Melian should go.

An attack by the Sons of Feanor, as mentioned above, is now pretty untenable. Probably the only way you could allow it to happen would be to evict Maglor, in which case Maedhros's quite justified berserk rage will destroy anything in its path. However, as I'm a Maglor-worshipper, I naturally would rather this didn't happen.

There is a third way of bringing down Doriath, aside from starting civil war-I wonder if any of you can spot it?

[Lalaith]

What about Elwing and her Silmaril?

[arcticstorm]

I do not know how to get this to work, but the dwarves could also bring it down, probably by evicting elwing. Once Telchar gets his chance to take the silmarill, he will do anything to get it.

[Anguirel]

Spot on, arctic. I was as subtle as your average rhinoceros. That's exactly what I meant...

In that case it might be best to evict a warrior like Dior or Mablung, as the Dwarves are within the Girdle already.

I'm going to save up my vote till tomorrow...

[Gothmog]

Just out of curiosity, is Nauglamir created or is the silmaril "free"? Otherwise I find it hard to believe that Telchar would start a war and destroy both Melian's court and the court of Dior which he recently helped to build up. He's got no right to the jewel. But if it is indeed a part of Nauglamir, then I can understand a possible claim from the dwarfes, rightful or not... But I doubt Telchar is some sort of thief.

One way of creating elf vs elf war could be to have Celeborn killed and make it look like something Dior or Melian was responsible for. That could send Galadriel into some sort of bloodthirsty rage and since she's now queen of Nargothrond that would create a war. But it seems a bit unlikely.

I'll go with the easy solution because of reasons stated in my previous post and choose (EDIT: or rather pre-previous post)

++Melian

No saving of votes here But one can always change a vote, right?

[Anguirel]

The Silmaril is free, Gothmog, and you bring up a good point; but all the same...remember Thorin and the Arkenstone, a nobler Dwarf than Telchar with a lesser gem than the Silmaril...though admittedly his claim was legitimate.

[arcticstorm]

Gothmog, from what I have read, it seemed to me that in the Silmarillion he wanted the silmaril for itself and used the Nauglamir as an excuse. I believe that given the chance, he will take it. So with that I will vote for ++Dior as I want the dwarves to take down Doriath.

[The 1,000 Reader]

++Melian.

Without her girdle, Doriath will suffer.

[Eonwe]

if we are being cruel, twisted beings wishing the worst for doriath (which i guess we are ) that would be to have war between Doriath and Belegost, with Morgoth's forces mopping up the remenants of both.

++Dior

as much as it pains me....

[Anguirel]

To let the Dwarves strike harder, and to avenge Curufin-++DIOR...

Votes so far

Ulmo-1
Dior-2
Melian-2

Voting will close this afternoon at 1:30 or so...