Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

[The X Phial]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I DO know what you're saying. That was a rather poor joke on my part. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

Welcome to the Downs Belegheru!

-*-The X Phial-*- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p>

[Orald]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/bluepal.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Hmm. The theory of him being here before Melkor is ok, something I believe. But BoLT(I think it is BoLT) states that Melkor was the first of all the ainur to enter into Ea. This presents a problem since you are saying Tom is a maia.

Hope you stay a while. Post, have fun.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

What if Tom was not entirely truthful when speaking to the Hobbits?
He is playful and may have just been leading them on with all those claims of being oldest and fatherless. The elves and Gandalf know that Tom is very ancient, but unless Gandalf/Olórin actually remembers Tom from before the creation, they could be mistaken in how old he truly is. He seems to be truly ancient and has demonstrated some unique abilities, but he does not necessarily have to be all that the elves and Gandalf think that he is. He could be just be pulling a prank on them. Pretending to be older than he is. Waiting until The End, when he sees them again, and teases them about how they were so gullible. <img src=eek.gif ALT=":eek"> (Nothing sinister).
It wouldn't be the first time that they were wrong about people. Gandalf was fooled by Saruman as to the fact that he had become corrupt, and the elves did not recoginize Annatar as being Sauron. They were mislead maliciously, but it shows it can be done. Even to Gandalf.
Just because the Eldar bumped into Tom on their migration doesn't automatically make him older than them. He could have awoken after they did, just a lot further west. They were on the road a looong time.
Questioning the fallibility of the sources of the information on Tom only makes him much more of an enigma. <img src=tongue.gif ALT=":b">

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[Amandil]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

Plus, my feelings for Tom have gone back and forth over the years.
I liked him at first,when I was around 6, then hated him during my early teens.
Then back to loving him and then back to skipping over those segments where he appeared again.

Then with time, accepting and cherishing him as an integral part of the fabric of ME.
But I now who he is:
I think he is me being extraordinarily silly.
That makes my wife Goldberry and my father-in-law a rivergod.
And to think, I threw him in Lake Michigan when I first met her extended family.
Yikes!! He could have smote me down, battered hat, yellow boots and all!

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[the Lorien wanderer]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol"> <img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Humour is emotional chaos remembered in moments of tranquility.</p>

[The X Phial]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I love Tom, but I do find some of his &quot;dialogue&quot; a little tedious. I have a new thought, though. Tom Bombadil is Richard Simmons's great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather! So much energy, trying to help people. It fits.

-*-The X Phial-*- "Yet more fair is the living land of Lorien, and the Lady Galadriel is above all the jewels that lie beneath the earth!"</p>

[Amandil]

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Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

How about this? Tom Bombadil as the Maia responsible for the creation of Hobbits.
He seems to be the ultimate version of a Hobbit, always singing and eating and running around communing with nature. <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> Not to mention darn silly yet tough as nails when needed in a pinch. (Take that old barrow-wight! Don't make me sing at you again!)

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[Samwise of the shire]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> It's hard to say

I really think that TB was a Faery (or something like that)I mean it might seem strange but now that I've thought about it TB is the lord and master of the woodlands,and he even has power over the faery trees of the Old Forest(Old-Man Willow was a faery tree,).
So I kinda picture TB as some type of jolly faery that has control over nature,but he was probably a Maia.
Sam

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: It's hard to say

A Spirit!

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[arwentinuviel]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/sting.jpg" align=absmiddle> hard to say

i haven't yet read the silmarrilion fully so i can't really be sure about whether he was a maia or an ainur.
But i think that he was neither. he seemed to me as something completely diifferent.an exception to the rule.
he was like nature itself

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Who do you think Tom Bombadil really was

I have the ultimate information:
Tom is a Maia,a powerful one, but not the most powerful, more or less as powerful as olorin in valinor!!, not in ME where he have lived since the beginning, because u should remember the ainur used to live first in ME, because of that he has such a power there. Kinda Melian.
what a smart guy i am!!!!!

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[Elfchick7]

Wow! I had no idea that Tom was such a huge topic of discussion.

I am glad that I am not the only one who has wondered who and what Tom might be. After having read all five pages of this thread, I am inclined to think that he is some kind of earth spirit, if anything. Discussing him is fun. I wish I knew what Tolkien was thinking when he put Tom in the books.

Probably something like, "Mwahaha, now I can plague the minds of all my readers with incessant curiosity and wonder as to who this character is..."

Now I am convinced. Tolkien was an evil genius.

[Sauron the White]

I do think he was in a class all by himself defying categorization. And no matter how many times I read the book, I still think he serves no real purpose and could have been left out without detracting from the book one iota. For me he adds nothing positive only poses disturbing questions that seem to contradict the rest of the book.

[alatar]

Been thinking about this one for a while - who hasn't? But it's clear to me now that Tom Bombadil is actually Eru Iluvatar, Creator of All.

Surely this theory has been brought up before, but I'm hoping that my tack is somewhat different (in the interest of full disclosure note that I did not go back and read each and every post on each and every 'Who's Bombadil' thread).

Tom's Eru. Tom is named Oldest, Fatherless. Goldberry simply states that, "He is." If that's not definitive, I'm not sure what is. But you know all of these arguments by heart. You probably have all of the counters memorized as well.

But he's not exactly Eru either, in the sense of being a God as we may think of it. It is actually Eru playing the part of Tom (and I think, even Goldberry, as such a god need not be limited, but see more below). I'm not sure if Eru as Tom even knows that he is the God of all at all. This may be due to the God self-limiting itself, almost like a self-induced lobotomy. Or, maybe Eru has gone what we would call insane, and so has set the world on auto pilot and has mentally retreated into the being that is Tom. Running the universe surely has its down days, and maybe Eru got so bored that It decided to go native, as that would be more fun, especially if It could somehow fool itself into playing at being a being like Tom. I would not limit the abilities of a god to not be able to pull off such a deception.

What got me a little down this path was remembering reading John Varley's Gaea Trilogy where the god of a world goes insane. Also, as Tolkien was a Christian, he read of Jesus, who was the God-Man. Jesus, during His earthly ministry, divested Himself of His God nature (or something like that - I'm not exactly sure how to best describe it, and note I mean no disrespect in any of these Christian comparisons) so that He could be like us (though still God). Whereas Jesus appeared as a human, I think that Tom appeared like those with whom he visited, which is why the Hobbits see him much like a large Hobbit than as a Man or Dwarf. His house is just a little too ready to receive four Hobbits for me not to suspect that he wasn't altering reality to fit the situation at hand. Had Elrond showed up, I get this feeling that the inners of the house would be a little different, and Tom might have appeared differently as well.

Also, in Christianity there is the concept of the Trinity, the Triune God. Not that it's easy to define, but as I understand this, there is one god, but three distinct beings in that godhood. Not three gods, nor three faces of one god. One god that can communicate with the other 'parts,' though they remain one, but distinct.

And so why not have Eru as a similar triune god? It could then express itself as male in Tom, female in Goldberry, and even nature in Lumpkin. How better to see how the theme played out than to plant oneself in the middle of Middle Earth, and then be able to relate to the characters within, whether sentient being, animal/plant, or element?

Anyway, that's my poorly worded take on Tom.

[Inziladun]

As an aside, I did not review this long thread, so apologies in advance if I repeat anything unnecessarily.

Originally Posted by alatar

Or, maybe Eru has gone what we would call insane, and so has set the world on auto pilot and has mentally retreated into the being that is Tom. Running the universe surely has its down days, and maybe Eru got so bored that It decided to go native, as that would be more fun, especially if It could somehow fool itself into playing at being a being like Tom. I would not limit the abilities of a god to not be able to pull off such a deception.

If Tom is Eru's little joke, he's been at it quite a long time by the standards of his Children.

But I had forgotten Bombadil, if indeed this is still the same that walked the woods and hills long ago, and even then was older then the old. Iarwain Ben-adar we called him, oldest and fatherless.

FOTR The Council of Elrond

For Elrond to call a creature old means they are old. 'Oldest and fatherless' I've always taken to mean simply that the Elves had no idea who he was or where he came from: he was just there.
During the time Tom was hanging out in ME, Eru was getting things done; destroying Númenórë and approving the plan hatched by the Valar to send Maia to Middle-earth to lead the fight against Sauron, among others.
That said, if Tom is Eru, I don't know that I'd be inclined to think him insane or 'native', uncaring of the playing out of the Music. Not, as you say, that it would be beyond the abilties of an omnipotent Creator to accomplish the running of the affairs of the world from his 'summer home' in the Old Forest.

Now, one thing that's always intrigued me is Gandalf's views and words regarding Tom. At the Council, he says basically that Tom is the one being who could trusted to keep the Ring without succumbing to its power, so immune that he would be likely to throw it away. The proof of that the reader had already seen: Tom held the Ring, put it on, and immediately handed it back to Frodo with no hesitation. Gandalf clearly knows the same cannot be said for himself, Maia though he is. Over the years that's caused me to let go of the 'Tom must be a Maia' stance I used to have. Tom's power and will must be much greater than Sauron's.
Later, when Gandalf's work against Sauron is finished, he tells the hobbits:

I am going to have a long talk with Bombadil: such a talk as I have not had in all my time. He is a moss-gatherer, and I have been a stone doomed to rolling. But my rolling days are ending, and now we shall have much to say to one another.

ROTK Homeward Bound

Gandalf is going to see Tom, and tell things he has told no one else? 'In all my time': does that mean 'since I have been here working agaist Sauron', or since I have been alive and conscious of my own being'? Why does Gandalf feel the need to do this? Could he be giving an account of his doings, failures as well as successes; a 'confession' if you will? And what does he expect Tom to say to him?

All that leads me to the conclusion that Gandalf appears to be reporting to his 'boss', and said 'boss' would have to be Manwë or Eru.
In the essay The Istari in Unfinished Tales, CJRT takes issue with the idea that Gandalf was Manwë, saying:

Manwë will not descend from the Mountain until the Dagor Dagorath, and the coming of the End, when Melkor returns. To the overthrow of Morgoth he sent his herald Eönwë.

And surely, Manwë could 'debrief' Gandalf upon his return to the West, as he probably did.
Conclusion? It seems entirely possible to me that Tom could have been a manifestation of Eru.

Originally Posted by alatar

And so why not have Eru as a similar triune god? It could then express itself as male in Tom, female in Goldberry, and even nature in Lumpkin. How better to see how the theme played out than to plant oneself in the middle of Middle Earth, and then be able to relate to the characters within, whether sentient being, animal/plant, or element?

The idea of Eru splitting into male and female sections that seem deeply in love in with one another I find more than a little distubing.
One the other hand, why not? If Tom is Eru, Goldberry must be accounted for as well, and that's as good an explanation as any.