The Dead and The Undead

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ar-Pharazon and his soldiers, I don't think are undead at all. Iluvatar can put His children into stasis-like sleep - he did it to the Fathers of the Dwarves for centuries! The Numenoreans are probably in the same state.

But if they are peacefully asleep, doesn't it defeat the point of the punishment? They have to be conscious in order for it to count, so that they can feel just how weary they are and regret their choices. You can't do that asleep. And I equally don't believe the Fathers of the Dwarves were conscious during their long sleep, that would be cruel to them. No peaceful nap for Ar Phar. Sleep paralysis - maybe.

Originally Posted by Hui

I actually don't much like the 'snuck up behind and broke his legs' story: the text in LotR implies a supernatural explanation, with Baldor wasting away while hacking and scrabbling at the stone door under an overwhelming compulsion to get inside. The idea that he wandered in, got beat up, couldn't find the way out so just kept trying the door in front of him while he bled out is pretty dull by comparison.

So I am also not a fan of real living people being the cause of Baldor's desperation and death. Whatever happened, I prefer that it happened by the power that the dead have over the living. Baldor could easily have broken his own legs if he was recklessly fleeing a nameless fear in complete darkness in the caves.

But by the same token, one of the ideas I've entertained for a while is that we don't even know if he was under an overwhelming compulsion to get in, or get out. Aragorn assumes he was going in, because he's standing there with a torch and a sense of direction. But it's equally possible that Baldor, driven half to madness and losing his way in the dark for however long, was desperate to get out of the caves and could not find the way back. Or, if not get out, then possibly get away, hide, run. All of these are well in the power of the dead spirits. We assume he was after what's behind the door, but we don't know what motivation drove him so intensely to hack at the stone as his strength failed.

Do we know the contents of Baldor's vow? ROTK only says "a rash vow he spoke". If the vow was just to enter the passage, it was fulfilled, he had no reason to seek anything beyond for the vow's sake. If it was to discover the secrets of the place - perhaps, but how strong would it's force be against the dead? And besides, surely there are other places to discover secrets except for this locked door, there's no reason to die scratching at it fruitlessly when there are other options around that would fulfil the vow. So I don't think Baldor stayed there by his own choice, at least; it was not likely his vow that kept him at it.