The Last Alliance - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 06-12-2018, 11:03 PM

BY-HL-20: 'Sauron Defeated' is a good idea, I didn't thought about that.

LA-SL-01:So you would start with 'Yet there came at length a stay in the onslaugth of Sauron upon the westlands.'? That does not strike me as a good starting sentence. I as well very much dislike to tell in short hand the story just given in full narrative.

LA-SL-02: Agreed.

LA-SL-03: Okay, I was not aware that Ernil is Sindarin for Prince. But I still think we should us the not here. I would edit it thus:

Quote:

... and they welcomed his sons. LA-SL-03<Cirion and Eorl, Note 39 and The History of Galdriel and Celeborn , Note 16 {The Lord of Dol Amroth had this title. It}To a family of the Faithful the title ‘Prince’ was given {to his ancestors }by Elendil, with whom they had kinship. They {were a family of the Faithful who }had sailed from Númenor before the Downfall and had settled in the land of Belfalas, between the mouths of Ringló and Gilrain, with a stronghold upon the high promontory {of}later named Dol Amroth ({named }after the last King of Lórien). >The chief city of this southern realm was Osgiliath, ...

LA-SL-05: Agreed.

LA-SL-05.5: Agreed.

LA-SL-07: Oops. of course you are right.

The Rest later today.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 06-13-2018, 12:26 AM

BY-HL-20: Is this agreed then?

LA-SL-01: Like so:

Quote:

LA-SL-01 <ORP The world was broken, and the land was swallowed up, and the seas rose over it, and Sauron himself went down into the abyss. But his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind to Middle-earth, seeking a home. There he found that the power of Gil-galad had grown great in the years of his absence, ...

LA-SL-03: Very well, this is fine.

gondowe · 06-13-2018, 11:31 AM

One thing, if I remember well, Cirdan was the owner of Narya from the beginning, despite of the later note, because is published in TToYotTA in the Appendices of TLotR.
Greetings

ArcusCalion · 06-13-2018, 12:10 PM

Gondowe, the Tale of years of the Third Age says this:

Quote:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad. Galadriel and Círdan. Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Círdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir.

This note is very unspecific, and makes no mention of the exact order of time in which the rings were distributed. Therefore I think there is no actual contradiction, and instead there is only detail lost due to compression.

gondowe · 06-13-2018, 12:17 PM

But I think at least CT thought Cirdan had owned it from the beginning , is said by him in some book, possibly UT. Nevertheless it is more factible that one ring-->one elf. And of course this will fix that Mithrandir would come to ME at TA. (Don't know if you reached a conclusion about that matter)
Greetings

ArcusCalion · 06-13-2018, 12:32 PM

I am confused as to what you are proposing. In all the documents that give details about the transmission of ownership of the rings, two were given to Gil-galad, and he distributed them to Elrond and Cirdan. This is in Of the Rings of Power and The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. The only text that says it was given directly to Cirdan is the VERY brief snippet in the Tale of Years of the Third Age, which is so compressed as to be barely a source of historical movement. I see no argument to give the ring to Cirdan directly, as this would go against all the source texts. As to the time of Gandalf's landing, there is also no debate. All the texts say that Gandalf, Saruman, and Radgast came during the Third Age around the time when the Shadow first came upon Mirkwood. Therefore there is also no reason to change or debate this. I included this event in my drafts for the Third Age, with some slight editing to reflect the new change that the two Blue Wizards came earlier in the Second Age.

gondowe · 06-13-2018, 01:08 PM

I'm not proposing anything.
I only say that "they had been held at first", was for me meant that Cirdan had Narya from the beginning (given by Gil-galad at the beginning as is stated in CGaC, despite the other note that says he gave him in the Last Alliance) of course it is, I think, a later note, but if the sentence in TLotR was, as I believed it was, would be definitive for have been published by the author.
In my text is said that Celebrimbor gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-galad and Gil-galad gave Narya to Cirdan at the beginning (not in TLast Alliance period).
Greetings

06-13-2018, 12:17 PM	#5
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	But I think at least CT thought Cirdan had owned it from the beginning , is said by him in some book, possibly UT. Nevertheless it is more factible that one ring-->one elf. And of course this will fix that Mithrandir would come to ME at TA. (Don't know if you reached a conclusion about that matter) Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 06-13-2018 at 12:23 PM.

06-13-2018, 11:31 AM	#3
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	One thing, if I remember well, Cirdan was the owner of Narya from the beginning, despite of the later note, because is published in TToYotTA in the Appendices of TLotR. Greetings

06-13-2018, 12:32 PM	#6
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	I am confused as to what you are proposing. In all the documents that give details about the transmission of ownership of the rings, two were given to Gil-galad, and he distributed them to Elrond and Cirdan. This is in Of the Rings of Power and The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. The only text that says it was given directly to Cirdan is the VERY brief snippet in the Tale of Years of the Third Age, which is so compressed as to be barely a source of historical movement. I see no argument to give the ring to Cirdan directly, as this would go against all the source texts. As to the time of Gandalf's landing, there is also no debate. All the texts say that Gandalf, Saruman, and Radgast came during the Third Age around the time when the Shadow first came upon Mirkwood. Therefore there is also no reason to change or debate this. I included this event in my drafts for the Third Age, with some slight editing to reflect the new change that the two Blue Wizards came earlier in the Second Age.

06-13-2018, 01:08 PM	#7
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 247	I'm not proposing anything. I only say that "they had been held at first", was for me meant that Cirdan had Narya from the beginning (given by Gil-galad at the beginning as is stated in CGaC, despite the other note that says he gave him in the Last Alliance) of course it is, I think, a later note, but if the sentence in TLotR was, as I believed it was, would be definitive for have been published by the author. In my text is said that Celebrimbor gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-galad and Gil-galad gave Narya to Cirdan at the beginning (not in TLast Alliance period). Greetings